NBA 2K13 Video - Roster Update Details (3-12-13)

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Quote: Originally Posted by mango_prom

I hope it's not some useless gimmick like some facebook/twitter thing to talk to the "insider". All we need are people that watch games and look at advanced stats. It's not like we're criticizing fancy details like shoe colors being off, but core elements of roster accuracy. So for example if Bosh is more skilled at close shots than Brook Lopez, that's not reflecting real basketball but some fantasy league that doesn't exist. The same with tendencies and playbooks. And the fact that 2k simply renamed plays that were already broken in 2k12 while ignoring the real NBA when creating tendencies and ratings makes me think that it's probably not a matter of "hearing the community" or "streamlining roster updates", but more about a real lack of knowledge and/or interest in realistic rosters. So hopefully the roster issue will not be used as a marketing gimmick to boost sales (I can think of a few nice slogans already). Maybe there are some guys at 2k that don't like the direction of the product themselves and would improve rosters but simply aren't allowed to. Anyway, only speaking for myself...looking at the way rosters were handled this year I doubt that I'll be spending money on 2k14 unless there's some real improvement on core issues. Should AI playcalling remain broken for the 4th year straight, big market favourites like Amare being better defenders than the Nick Collisons of the league while broken plays and tendencies get copy/pasted to the next version again, I think 2k might lose quite a few customers.

Try to keep in mind that even if these areas have become a real point of emphasis, it may not be reflected perfectly in 2k14. Think about how many years it took them to solve their online stability issues even when it got to the point that they knew it could have a significant impact on sales. But they clearly were listening, and just a few short years after being one of the game's most constant sources of complaint, there's barely a peep about connection drops, not being able to get into a match, or unplayable amounts of lag.

It's much harder to change corporate culture (and budgets) than to physically do the work needed to improve, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "Maybe there are some guys at 2k that don't like the direction of the product themselves and would improve rosters but simply aren't allowed to." It's probably most of them. Programmers and artists are the last people who are likely to maintain a peaceful state of mind when forced to deal with inconsistent data and compromised vision. Unless they have a habit of hiring folks who have great contempt for NBA basketball, even the previously uninitiated ones would probably learn enough about the area of the game they work on to recognize the same flaws we do.

I hope that people stick to their guns when they threaten not to buy the next game if certain issues aren't addressed, then make it known that they didn't purchase it for those reasons. That's where real consumer power lies.

[mango_prom]

Quote: Originally Posted by Streaky McFloorburn

Try to keep in mind that even if these areas have become a real point of emphasis, it may not be reflected perfectly in 2k14. Think about how many years it took them to solve their online stability issues even when it got to the point that they knew it could have a significant impact on sales. But they clearly were listening, and just a few short years after being one of the game's most constant sources of complaint, there's barely a peep about connection drops, not being able to get into a match, or unplayable amounts of lag. It's much harder to change corporate culture (and budgets) than to physically do the work needed to improve, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "Maybe there are some guys at 2k that don't like the direction of the product themselves and would improve rosters but simply aren't allowed to." It's probably most of them. Programmers and artists are the last people who are likely to maintain a peaceful state of mind when forced to deal with inconsistent data and compromised vision. Unless they have a habit of hiring folks who have great contempt for NBA basketball, even the previously uninitiated ones would probably learn enough about the area of the game they work on to recognize the same flaws we do. I hope that people stick to their guns when they threaten not to buy the next game if certain issues aren't addressed, then make it known that they didn't purchase it for those reasons. That's where real consumer power lies.

I agree with everything you've said and I don't expect perfection, not at all. Can't happen and it's not like stuff like synergy data will lead do definite conclusions on all topics, so I get that a lot of my complaints are subjective.

On the other hand, if someone gets significant minutes in Minnesota he should be in the game, simple as that. Also, while ratings and tendencies can not be objectively determined, there should be at least some logic behind it. I'm not talking about small differences in terms of +2,-1 or whatever. Scaling across the league should make sense, with ratings not based on reputation or popularity, but by comparing performance in categories relevant to certain in-game values.
So I'm not complaining about minor tweaks, but at least different tiers of skill shoud be acknowledged.

So for 2k14 I don't expect much, it would be enough if I could notice an attempt to fix these issues. There doesn't need to be a revolution, and a lot of the work is already done. 2k could literally copy/paste a lot of stuff regarding playbooks/rosters from community attempts.
And I'm not saying that everything about these projects is perfection, but issues like scaling attributes, formulas for ratings based on real stats, tested playbooks and so on have been adressed and could be a great foundation for future changes to how 2k handles rosters.

But in the end I also have to respect the opinions of many fans out there who want to enjoy a fast paced action game with their favourite NBA idols.
It's not my definition of a fun experience, but they've paid money for this game as well. So they have the same right as me, which means "sim" might continue to be not exactly the priority for future installments. In the end, 2k should care about how to attract the biggest market possible. If this means going more into a realism based direction, I'd love that for sure.

But even though I hope that a certain other company might release a more mature product sometime, you have to acknowledge that 2k is still in business, so their success proves that they do the right thing with their games.

[jayska23]

2K is embarrassing themselves that they still have this clown that they call the "2K Insider". I remember when the game was shipped he messed up the Dwight Howard trade he still had Josh McRoberts & messed up the trade deadline. I'm not sure how the guy still has a job after messing up common sense things, you could tell some random person that doesn't even play 2k do things like that. And there is no reason that there is still 11 people are missing it would be one thing if the Insider was sooo busy editing tons of players around the league every update but so far this month he's edited 6 players he edited 19 in February, seems like he's been super busy lately. The ratings are just as embarrassing I don't even want to go into them they're so embarrassing. Please 2K Sports were going into the next gen of gaming please hire someone that actually watches basketball.

[mango_prom]

I think the main issue is not even that 2k might neglect whatever "sim" means (it's subjective after all), but that many basic aspects get ignored. And I get that much of potential freedom in designing a game is determined by the direction your company forces you into and the fact that their current approach has proven to be successful. So if you pitch ideas for any change, the answer might be "why?", and it's a valid one. If realism does not translate into sales, you won't convince anybody.

Still, 2k13 doesn't lack the fancy stuff, but the simplest things. So if a player drives left 60% of the time in real life and the game does not reflect that, complaining about this would be a bit excessive. But that's not the point. Even though I remember a 2k dev talking about exactly this kind of tendency mentioning Jason Terry as an example back for 2k10 or 11 I think. Nowadays it's Jay-Z...

You don't need to be an experienced software developer to simply take some unknown low rated free agent, change his name and appearance to Mickael Gelabale and put him on the Wolves.

You don't need to be a D1-level coach to simply test plays and delete all the broken ones. It's not rocket science. Or simply copy/paste them from another roster.

Your don't need to spend a lot of cash on fancy advanced game analysis where sites like hoopdata provide useful stats that could easily be converted to in-game ratings by tools that could easily be developed by anybody with basic programming knowledge.

You don't need to completely rebuild in-game AI if simply fixing the way plays get called and distributed could vastly improve a realistic game experience. Get rid of scripting and let touches and random specific play selection be all that matters.


So the touches issue might be harder to fix than I think. But all the other points have repeatedly been fixed by some random strangers on the internet who can do this in their free time after they're finished with their real job/uni/whatever. How hard can it be for a multi-million dollar company?

[PPerfect_CJ]

Quote: Originally Posted by LD2k

The future looks bright. We're hearing the community.

If you're hearing us, then where are the missing players???

[mango_prom]

Quote: Originally Posted by PPerfect_CJ

If you're hearing us, then where are the missing players???

They could at least explain what's the problem. An honest "We're done, not much more coming for 2k13" would be better than claiming that "the insider" and even a "team" are "working" on roster updates.

[Vni]

Quote: Originally Posted by PPerfect_CJ

If you're hearing us, then where are the missing players???

They are at the 'hearing' stage right now. They're hearing things.

[Goffs]

Quote: Originally Posted by LD2k

The future looks bright. We're hearing the community.

Cool! 2k insider finally gone? Better updates for lower tier teams and not just the top tier teams? I'll believe it when I see it...