Clint Oldenburg Explains the Strength Rating For Linemen in Madden

[Phobia]

Great posts Hanz!

I agree with everything you are saying. It is a sad fact that the ratings are not "stretch" to the point of showing difference among the players. NOW lets not get it twisted, even if you lowered these to the point of max/min you still don't see enough of a disparity among players. The reason for this is like you said in your first post, it is always all are nothing, win or lose. There is never a "battle" among players and ratings. It is always one wins over the other, the other loses.

For instance lets look at the O-line since that is the point of this thread.

Strength as they say decides how long a block is held. Where block shed we can assume is the battler of strength. So what we have is this. The moment the DE and T engage in a block. Either Strength wins for X given of time, then at some point Block Shed wins and the block is released and the DE shoots past the lineman.

What we don't see is the two engage at the line then BATTLE for position from start to finish of the play. We all know the moment we hike the ball as the QB, our time in the pocket is determined by this "win/lose" situation. One play that 98 pro bowl tackle could hold his block for the duration of his 3 seconds in the pocket. The next play that same pro-bowl tackle loses instantly and the QB is sacked very fast.

This is partly to blame why we can't "feel" our time in the pocket. There is no gauge to what lineman are struggling against a particular defender. So we never have a clue how long we might have in the pocket, how might lose his block, etc. It is a bunch of randomness and hoping we get the 1 called for our lineman more often than that 0 (Binary code win/lose, on/off, all/nothing).

This same all are nothing approach is why we don't have a true pocket. How can a pocket close in around a QB if there is no pushing and shoving? Instead the defender is released and the QB goes down at the point of his drop back. There is no rhyme or reason to the madness. Pure luck, guess work, and mental fortitude to attempting to enjoy this madness of O-line/D-line interactions.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phobia

This same all are nothing approach is why we don't have a true pocket. How can a pocket close in around a QB if there is no pushing and shoving? Instead the defender is released and the QB goes down at the point of his drop back. There is no rhyme or reason to the madness. Pure luck, guess work, and mental fortitude to attempting to enjoy this madness of O-line/D-line interactions.

At the risk of being told that I don't get it, I have seen the pocket close in.

I believe it occurs when both the OL and DL "fail", much like in M12.

I've seen when the the CPU QB is still looking for somewhere to throw and the RE has pretty much reached the QB, but still engaged with the LT. Sometimes, this cause him to throw away, sometimes he'll look for other space in the pocket, stepping up and sometimes either running or somehow throwing beyond the line of scrimmage for the voiceless illegal forward pass call.

Since it happens very infrequently, I'm thinking it's the "double fail" scenario, much like in M12 where you didn't get the patty cake, 'stalemate' at the LoS, or the shove him down/quick 'engagement'. Otherwise, it's the usual stuff on both sides - being locked down for ages or under pressure in almost no time.

[at23steelers]

Exactly Phobia and Hanz!! Great posts! If only EA now reads this thread!

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phobia

This same all are nothing approach is why we don't have a true pocket. How can a pocket close in around a QB if there is no pushing and shoving? Instead the defender is released and the QB goes down at the point of his drop back. There is no rhyme or reason to the madness. Pure luck, guess work, and mental fortitude to attempting to enjoy this madness of O-line/D-line interactions.

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

Well, I don't want to see Colston always getting inside position. If a defense is called to take away inside position, even an average CB should be able to against Colston. Their really should be some statistical analysis done with actual NFL players to determine how often receivers or CB's win the fight over the inside position and use ratings values to make adjustments to it.

I'm guessing that your NOT saying it should always be a win for Colston so I guess I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not. I just want the outcomes to be as realistic as possible compared to what actually happens in the NFL while having the process to the outcome be as realistic as possible. That's why I like following these discussions even though I'm somewhat skeptical we will ever see it in Madden.

If I'm just way off from what you are actually discussing, then just disregard my post. Keep fighting the good fight guys!!!!!

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

It also contributes to the MAGIC plays I talked about. Look no further than 2 man under this year. Notice with 2 man under everyone gets a perfect bump and nobody gets beat. They also all take away the inside routes. Well from the way the ratings look you would think that you would have some variety on a play. Let's just take Marques Colston. He has a 99 route run and like a 99 release, but against 2 man under he cannot establish inside position. I would expect this guy to establish inside position on slants, Ins and anything going inside with those high release and route run ratings regardless of what the coverage is. But they program 2 man under to take away all inside routes regardless of your WR's ratings. I don't like it.

And once again this illustrates the lack of vision and understanding by their programmers. This was undoubtedly done on purpose, because of how easy it was to abuse slant routes in last year's game. So now, they basically said, "you can't throw a slant against man coverage". Kill the headache by cutting off the head. While I like some of the things they have done with respect to coverage this year, there is still no realistic balance in this game. The entire movement engine and player interaction in this game is horrendous. HORRENDOUS. I don't expect it to change at all next year either. One or two minor things will be "adjusted". I won't say "fixed" because we all know that will never be the case.

It's clear that Madden is held together like a house of cards. In 2 years, not a single tuner set has been released for the game. Embarrassing. If you adjust one single card, the entire house falls down. EA has a total calamity on their hands and without exclusivity would seriously find themselves in trouble with this crapfest.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

Well, I don't want to see Colston always getting inside position. If a defense is called to take away inside position, even an average CB should be able to against Colston. Their really should be some statistical analysis done with actual NFL players to determine how often receivers or CB's win the fight over the inside position and use ratings values to make adjustments to it. I'm guessing that your NOT saying it should always be a win for Colston so I guess I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not. I just want the outcomes to be as realistic as possible compared to what actually happens in the NFL while having the process to the outcome be as realistic as possible. That's why I like following these discussions even though I'm somewhat skeptical we will ever see it in Madden. If I'm just way off from what you are actually discussing, then just disregard my post. Keep fighting the good fight guys!!!!!

Let me ask. If I put a guy at Offensive Tackle that's rated 60 overall, 60 pass block 65 pass block footwork, ehh let's give him 90 strength and you have DeMarcus Ware lined up across from him, would you want Ware to tear him a new one every time?

[LBzrule]

The point here is that a WR's movement/route should not be determined by the defensive coverage. It should be determined by the individual match up in man to man coverage. Colston should not automatically get pushed to the outside just because the defense is running 2 man Under when his assignment is to get inside position. The individual match up has to have some impact here. This way people cannot use one coverage as a crutch like they do now. Everyone and their momma runs 2 man under as a crutch. I've literally played guys that stay in it all game even when you torch it. They just have so much faith that something will eventually happen for them out of this coverage because of the way it is programmed. This type of mentality needs to be eliminated and individual match ups need to factor in. I don't mind my WR not being able to establish inside position if the ratings indicate that, but if the ratings indicate otherwise then what's the point of the ratings if the play is going to cancel them out?