More NBA 2K13 Player Ratings Revealed - Pippen, Love, Davis, Ellis, Waiters and Iggy

[jwtucker710]

Can't wait for this one! Run Dream Team '92 against DT '12. Just letting the CU simulate it and watch will be fun. LOL! Get the popcorn ready!

[Belly_of_a_Whale]

Quote: Originally Posted by jwtucker710

Can't wait for this one! Run Dream Team '92 against DT '12. Just letting the CU simulate it and watch will be fun. LOL! Get the popcorn ready!

So long as they don't overrate the current team. Melo's 92 scares me. There's no way he is as good overall as Pippen and Drexler. Barkley better be at least 94, and really should be a 95 overall.

Not saying the current team couldn't beat the '92 team, but the original Dream Team should be rated better overall and have the deeper bench.

[JwP23]

Quote: Originally Posted by Belly_of_a_Whale

So long as they don't overrate the current team. Melo's 92 scares me. There's no way he is as good overall as Pippen and Drexler. Barkley better be at least 94, and really should be a 95 overall. Not saying the current team couldn't beat the '92 team, but the original Dream Team should be rated better overall and have the deeper bench.

[thilanwij]

Quote: Originally Posted by jwtucker710

Can't wait for this one! Run Dream Team '92 against DT '12. Just letting the CU simulate it and watch will be fun. LOL! Get the popcorn ready!

You should like put it on HOF difficulty on Simulation sliders and really see how the game will turn out haha.

[SocialReject]

If Lebron's rating is higher than everyone on The dream team, someone has to die.

[TheRetroKid]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

I did watch him play, 80s and 90s and I can EASILY pick 5.. He was athletic sure, every all star caliber player in the NBA is athletic, what's your point? You can't say Pippen is the greatest SF of all time just because he was one of the best perimeter defenders of his era.. I guess that makes Dennis Johnson the all time best PG, Dumars or Moncrief the all time best SG after MJ, Rodman or Oakley or whoever the best all time PF, and Mark Eaton or Mutombo the best all time Centers?... Sounds about right to me.. Pippen is versatile offensively and could play the point forward role, I never said he couldn't.. But he is so overrated in that aspect.. Walking the ball up the court and passing it to MJ isn't exactly "great ball handling" .. Shaq could even do that.. Seriously you overrate that aspect of his game way to much.. He's by no means a Penny Hardaway or Magic Johnson type "big guard" the way you're trying to make it sound.. As far as defense goes, yes he is one of the very best of his era and of all time.. But his on ball defense is very overrated as well.. He wasn't guarding the smaller faster guys, that's why AI's highlight is crossing up MJ not Pip, he was over powered by the bigger forwards, that's why they had Rodman, he wasn't as versatile defensively as what you might think you remember seeing.. He was however VERY VERY VERY damn good as a team defensive player, probably top 5 in NBA history, he's the perfect team defensive player at the SF position IMO.. I'm not trying to knock him defensively, but I am being realistic here.. You do realize Harper is usually considered a top 5 defensive PG, Jordan at SG, Pippen at SF, and Rodman at PF.. See where this is going? There defense was built around a team style, not individual... And Pippen was simply amazing in playing that role.. And Yes I can pick at least 5 SF that I would take on my team before Pippen.. 1.Bird 2. LeBron 3. Elgin Baylor 4. John Havelicek 5. Dr. J 6. Dave Debusschere 7 then Pippen/Worthy/Nique' Wilkins If you preferred offense to defense you could easily take Rick Barry, or Alex English over Pippen as well.. I would include them both in my 7th place tie.. I would take a PRIME (even though that didn't last long) Grant Hill up in the top 5 and after a few more years probably even Kevin Durant over Pippen.. Dubusschere is probably the only SF on the list who was actually a better defender than Pippen was... Probably the best on ball defender ever and could pretty much play SG-PF and be very effective up around 12 boards a game as and undersized forward position.. Could guard almost every position on the court as well. And score some points... Dr. J is very underrated defensively as well, not Pippen level but still and it's scary to think how good LeBron could have been defensively playing in that era with Pippen

Dave Debusscher? How old are you? Did you actually watch the '70s Knicks teams or are you just regurgitating opinions from basketball books like, "Who's Better, Who's Best" and "The Book of Basketball"? Its not like offense, where you can go by stats and get an idea of how good they were. For defense, being that very few stats are generated from playing good defense, you actually have to have watched someone play defense to claim how good they were...unless they were rebounding, steals or blocked shot stats. Defense is shutting a player down, lowering their fg% and making a team look for their offense elsewhere. Those stats were rarely kept during the 70's, so unless you watched Dave play on a regular basis, I'd say your opinion belongs to Bill Simmons more than yourself.

Pippen, on the other hand, played during prime time. Everyone saw him play, and fellow players, commentators and analysts have put him on a level way above what you're calling. Are you saying you're more informed? Know the game better? You watched Bulls games for Jordan, and saw Pip score, but did you watch him play off the ball? No, because you're under-valuing his skills and abilities.

I'm 31, and I've been a Pippen fan my whole life, but my opinion isn't based on personal decade bias or generational hype. It's based on actually playing basketball and appreciating the intricacies and elements brought to the table that either aren't or can't be reproduced in today's game, or go unnoticed.

Overall, he is all-time top 5 when it comes to small forwards.
1. Bird
2. Hondo
3. Dr. J
4. Lebron
5. Pippen

He generated offense during a time where elbows to the back, hand checking and snake bites were happening. He played during a time when there was only one kind of flagrant. He played during a time where physical contact was going to happen, and folks were getting thrown to the ground and bodied on a regular basis.

In this day and age, you can't body someone up, let alone put a hand on them until they get to a certain place on the court. You can't hand check or put a forearm on a post player's back. Defenses can play zone and the slightest contact will be called. In order to generate a higher-scoring and more offense-friendly game, defenders can't defend like they used to. The best example of this is the mid-2000's, when Tony Parker and other guards were breaking top 20 in scoring due to their ability to get in the paint, get their hand slapped and go to the line. Remember when AI, TMac and Kobe were all averaging low to mid 30 ppg for a season? Tell me that's not due to the calls being offense oriented.

With those rules in place, two things happen. One, decent scorers who drive the lane are going to get a slight inflation to their scoring, as opposed to if they played in the 90's. Two, average defenders are going to look better due to zone and being able to roam around. How many times have you seen Lebron get posted by a center and play him straight up? How many times have you seen Lebron take a defensive assignment against the other team's superstar,maven though they're not the same position, just to shut down an offense? He gets passing lane steals and weak side blocks, but can't play anyone straight up.

Btw, when choosing the original Dream Team, the first three no-brainers were MJ, Magic and Bird. After that, it was Robinson and Pip. How much respect does a guy need to get from his peers and people in the know before armchair aficionados finally come to their senses?

Also, in the rare instance that you haven't read, "The Big Book of Basketball", Pip is ranked 24th all-time.

[ojandpizza]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheRetroKid

Dave Debusscher? How old are you? Did you actually watch the '70s Knicks teams or are you just regurgitating opinions from basketball books like, "Who's Better, Who's Best" and "The Book of Basketball"? Its not like offense, where you can go by stats and get an idea of how good they were. For defense, being that very few stats are generated from playing good defense, you actually have to have watched someone play defense to claim how good they were...unless they were rebounding, steals or blocked shot stats. Defense is shutting a player down, lowering their fg% and making a team look for their offense elsewhere. Those stats were rarely kept during the 70's, so unless you watched Dave play on a regular basis, I'd say your opinion belongs to Bill Simmons more than yourself. Pippen, on the other hand, played during prime time. Everyone saw him play, and fellow players, commentators and analysts have put him on a level way above what you're calling. Are you saying you're more informed? Know the game better? You watched Bulls games for Jordan, and saw Pip score, but did you watch him play off the ball? No, because you're under-valuing his skills and abilities. I'm 31, and I've been a Pippen fan my whole life, but my opinion isn't based on personal decade bias or generational hype. It's based on actually playing basketball and appreciating the intricacies and elements brought to the table that either aren't or can't be reproduced in today's game, or go unnoticed. Overall, he is all-time top 5 when it comes to small forwards. 1. Bird 2. Hondo 3. Dr. J 4. Lebron 5. Pippen He generated offense during a time where elbows to the back, hand checking and snake bites were happening. He played during a time when there was only one kind of flagrant. He played during a time where physical contact was going to happen, and folks were getting thrown to the ground and bodied on a regular basis. In this day and age, you can't body someone up, let alone put a hand on them until they get to a certain place on the court. You can't hand check or put a forearm on a post player's back. Defenses can play zone and the slightest contact will be called. In order to generate a higher-scoring and more offense-friendly game, defenders can't defend like they used to. The best example of this is the mid-2000's, when Tony Parker and other guards were breaking top 20 in scoring due to their ability to get in the paint, get their hand slapped and go to the line. Remember when AI, TMac and Kobe were all averaging low to mid 30 ppg for a season? Tell me that's not due to the calls being offense oriented. With those rules in place, two things happen. One, decent scorers who drive the lane are going to get a slight inflation to their scoring, as opposed to if they played in the 90's. Two, average defenders are going to look better due to zone and being able to roam around. How many times have you seen Lebron get posted by a center and play him straight up? How many times have you seen Lebron take a defensive assignment against the other team's superstar,maven though they're not the same position, just to shut down an offense? He gets passing lane steals and weak side blocks, but can't play anyone straight up. Btw, when choosing the original Dream Team, the first three no-brainers were MJ, Magic and Bird. After that, it was Robinson and Pip. How much respect does a guy need to get from his peers and people in the know before armchair aficionados finally come to their senses? Also, in the rare instance that you haven't read, "The Big Book of Basketball", Pip is ranked 24th all-time.

Why do you keep telling me what era of basketball Pippen played in like I don't already know that or something? Every guy I named off besides LeBron played is that "much tougher" era as well? So I don't see how that point is supposed to help any...

And I was never rating my players based on defense alone, I'm rating them as overall small forwards or overall players.. You can't just be great in one area or we would see Bruce Bowen on this list somewhere as well..

Also how was it Robinson and Pip the next two guys in line when neither of them started?? And even if he was chosen first to play on the dream team that's still just one season 1992, and I'm giving you small forwards from all time.. Him getting chosen for the dream team shows no relevance in the argument at all..

[TheRetroKid]

The relevance if him chosen that highly was that the first dream team was THE team that was put together to showcase the cream of the crop. It was meant to display to the world the absolute talent that the NBA had. As for the starting lineups, they would occasionally, depending on the opponent (Pip started the game versus Croatia). So yeah, being picked for the original Dream Team was an honor, unlike today where the coaches have to keep their fingers crossed and hope the players want to sign on, otherwise, lesser caliber talent is settled upon.

If defense was never the focal point, then why throw out Dave debusscher, a player you obviously haven't seen play in person or even on more than 3 ESPN Classics games?

You seem to just name drop older players hoping no one really knows much about the game to contest, but Alex English and Rick Barry over Pippen? You're right, I won't contest, because the very notion is just too frustrating.

In the endmthough, your opinion is your own, and you're entitled to it.