NHL 13 Screenshots - Dynamic Goalies

[FBeaule04]

Quote: Originally Posted by RealmK

Again I'll ask, does the new skating engine affect tenders as well? If so it'll make a huge difference. Or should in theory. Hockey is without a doubt the toughest game to emulate in video game form, add in all the limiting factors of consoles with 512 megs of ram, 10 month yearly dev cycles, resources etc etc. Goaltenders in EA's game are obviously not 100% realistic, and honestly, they prolly never will be. They are however functional and believable imo for the most part. And appear to be getting alot of love this year along with AI really in general that was long overdue. We're never going to get perfection, it's just not going to happen.

To me Realm, it's just going back to what I was saying about NHL 12. It's the case of the frog wanting to be a beef (that a french expression, I'm not sure at all I can say that in english, anyhow...).

In NHL 92 (yep, 20 years ago) we had our first hockey game from EA. There was not many mode, graphics we're great at the time for a video game, it was fun, we didn't ask for much since it was the first one.

Then, the game started to expend with the years. Seasons and Playoffs, Stats, Trophies, Lines, Create a team, etc. Things we're implemented in the game, and taken out year after. There was more and more problems, but modes and goodies increased, increased, and continue to increased.

I remember, in NHL 08, there was few modes but online was versus and that's it. Funny enough that in NHL 98, you could have GM connected online in a league and it's a brand new thing in NHL 13. Anyway, that wasn't the point. Matter of fact is that instead of saying : "That's enough for modes offering, there plenty to be happy with" the company, looking at new cows to milk, decided to go toward Be a Pro, EAUHL and EASHL. These three modes together should have taken more then there share of time on the team, making the other modes completely stalled.

I'm not saying that Be a Pro isn't a good mode, that UHL isn't a good addition neither is EASHL. My only grief is that, if you say that the console as it's limitation and they only have 10 months to develop the game, why don't they concentrate on making the product the most flawless in years. They even can afford not offering not much new goodies, they don't have an opponent to put the game in trouble.

Like I said, we're responsible because we buy the game year in year out, we played it from one cover to the other, and most reviews are giving the game a 8.5 to 9 every september. The real grades should be the ones we gave when we washed up this game, late june when the NHL seasons end.

As for myself, the 8 I gave to the game in september after few weeks would be a 6.5 now. To all the great things this game as to offer, the flaws of the AI in the game kills it more than in previous years. We don't ask for perfection, but I wouldn't accept a guy having the talent of Sidney Crosby to play like Sean Avery. And that's exactly what EA did with NHL 12.

Note to myself : Go read what you just type and ask yourself why you still play the game. Because you're an idiot!

[RealmK]

Quote: Originally Posted by FBeaule04

To me Realm, it's just going back to what I was saying about NHL 12. It's the case of the frog wanting to be a beef (that a french expression, I'm not sure at all I can say that in english, anyhow...). In NHL 92 (yep, 20 years ago) we had our first hockey game from EA. There was not many mode, graphics we're great at the time for a video game, it was fun, we didn't ask for much since it was the first one. Then, the game started to expend with the years. Seasons and Playoffs, Stats, Trophies, Lines, Create a team, etc. Things we're implemented in the game, and taken out year after. There was more and more problems, but modes and goodies increased, increased, and continue to increased. I remember, in NHL 08, there was few modes but online was versus and that's it. Funny enough that in NHL 98, you could have GM connected online in a league and it's a brand new thing in NHL 13. Anyway, that wasn't the point. Matter of fact is that instead of saying : "That's enough for modes offering, there plenty to be happy with" the company, looking at new cows to milk, decided to go toward Be a Pro, EAUHL and EASHL. These three modes together should have taken more then there share of time on the team, making the other modes completely stalled. I'm not saying that Be a Pro isn't a good mode, that UHL isn't a good addition neither is EASHL. My only grief is that, if you say that the console as it's limitation and they only have 10 months to develop the game, why don't they concentrate on making the product the most flawless in years. They even can afford not offering not much new goodies, they don't have an opponent to put the game in trouble. Like I said, we're responsible because we buy the game year in year out, we played it from one cover to the other, and most reviews are giving the game a 8.5 to 9 every september. The real grades should be the ones we gave when we washed up this game, late june when the NHL seasons end. As for myself, the 8 I gave to the game in september after few weeks would be a 6.5 now. To all the great things this game as to offer, the flaws of the AI in the game kills it more than in previous years. We don't ask for perfection, but I wouldn't accept a guy having the talent of Sidney Crosby to play like Sean Avery. And that's exactly what EA did with NHL 12. Note to myself : Go read what you just type and ask yourself why you still play the game. Because you're an idiot!

Excellent post and I agree 100%, I never asked for BAP, or EASHL or HUT or any of that stuff, and the addition of all those modes over the last few years have stagnated work needed in other areas, skating, AI, heck you know the list, the important areas rather than shiny new online modes for the casuals.

There is a difference in players, honestly there is, it's just not nearly pronounced enough, guys that are shut down defensive specialists like a Chris Kelly aren't allowed to shine because the AI just wasn't their for it. The AI was so driven on "Get the puck get the puck get the puck" That it didn't understand what a forecheck was or a backcheck for the most part, you'd still see the occasional move from an AI controlled 2 way forward to cut off a pass at center ice but it happened so rarely it really wasn't even worth mentioning.

EA's saying it themselves, "We've worked more on AI this year than the last 3 years combined" Gee ya think? Stop adding new modes and focus that limited dev cycle and resources on the important aspects.

[ch46647]

Quote: Originally Posted by RealmK

Excellent post and I agree 100%, I never asked for BAP, or EASHL or HUT or any of that stuff, and the addition of all those modes over the last few years have stagnated work needed in other areas, skating, AI, heck you know the list, the important areas rather than shiny new online modes for the casuals. There is a difference in players, honestly there is, it's just not nearly pronounced enough, guys that are shut down defensive specialists like a Chris Kelly aren't allowed to shine because the AI just wasn't their for it. The AI was so driven on "Get the puck get the puck get the puck" That it didn't understand what a forecheck was or a backcheck for the most part, you'd still see the occasional move from an AI controlled 2 way forward to cut off a pass at center ice but it happened so rarely it really wasn't even worth mentioning. EA's saying it themselves, "We've worked more on AI this year than the last 3 years combined" Gee ya think? Stop adding new modes and focus that limited dev cycle and resources on the important aspects.

Realm, have you played NHL 13?

Thanks!

[Revan30]

I'm totally fine with taking away the RS for further limb control. Any good goalie knows that goaltending is 95% positioning--and the right stick just messed up most goalies, anyways--almost all of the goalies playing this game didn't touch it to start with.

The problem for me, at least, with NHL's goalie mode has been that the defensive and offensive AI is terrible. Seriously--no amount of sliders can make playing goalie fun. In NHL 09 goalie mode was amazingly fun because the sliders actually worked well in goalie mode when tweaked with. But in NHL 10 when they introduced a crapton more sliders, the sliders seem to all be completely ineffective when it comes to goalie mode.

I agree with Rogie about making the leaning feature part of the Left stick, though--that was just dumb, ea. Also, leaning doesn't do anything in real life anyways. Goalies who cheat on things like a 2-on-1 don't cheat by leaning...they cheat by positioning themselves conservatively enough in the crease so that they can get over quickly, usually by SHUFFLING, to stop the incoming one-timer.

So RealmK in the early pages of this thread was complaining about goalie movement not mattering--it 110% matters. If EA fixed goalie movement and positioning the gameplay would be so much better. Anyone who plays or knows anything about hockey knows that goalies have to be the 'best' skaters on the team. This doesn't mean the fastest--but in terms of lateral agility, they need to have the quickest short-distance burst speed. If EA took the mechanics that they're using for the "burst" speed that they've been constantly advertising on their forwards and put it on goalies, cross-creases and whatnot would never happen.

A goalie's ability to read the play and position himself accordingly by using his skating abilities is key to his game. The only thing that EA needs to do to fix goaltending AI is fix those two things--full-ice vision and reactionary skating--to make flawless goaltending.

Furthermore, playing as a goalie in this game will always be terrible as long as we cannot see directly out of the eyes of the human goalie, or at the very least, when necessary see THROUGH the human goalie. I cannot tell you how many times I have made a save, only to give up a rebound and be practically unable to see the puck in time to react to it because my controlled goalie is obstructing my vision.

What EA needs to do to seriously improve human goaltending is the following:

1. Make sliders actually make sense. In no scenario whatsoever should raising the 'pass interception' slider raise shot totals. That's not how sliders are supposed to work. If users for the 4th year in a row are complaining about shot totals, why not make a 'shot frequency' slider? One of the really good things I liked about NHL 2k10 were the sliders. That slider set up was FANTASTIC, and if you fiddled around with it enough you could give yourself an INCREDIBLY realistic set up that was a lot of fun to play. EA has never had that because they waste time with gimmicks such as a dynamic contact physics engine that doesn't even work in the first place.

2. Allow users playing as goalies to see THROUGH the goaltender during select situations to allow them to see and react to loose pucks directly in front of their controlled goalie. This is huge. A crap ton of goals scored on me both offline and online are when the puck is played close into the net, but if I can't see the puck, I can't react. I've played goalie all of my life--it is really not that hard to stop a one-timer if you're positioned deep enough in your net. But if you can't track the one-time pass all the way from the sender to the receiver, you lose your ability to position yourself according to the incoming shot, and will consistently allow goals.

3. Allow users greater control of their goaltenders. I hate to say it but goalies in no way should be taking 2-3 shuffles to get across their net. A good goalie can shuffle or t-push all around the crease in one stroke. A lot of times, if you move around the crease with your goalie, he will always shuffle--he never t-pushes. And if you skate to the top left corner of the crease and try to shuffle laterally across to the right top corner, it takes him way longer than it should in real life to get there. Why is this? I'm 21 years old and barely played US JV hockey but I can shuffle that distance way faster than Henrik Lundqvist can in this game. I wouldn't even come CLOSE to even playing at the major junior level, yet I am a better skater than every single goalie in this hockey game. There's something seriously, seriously wrong with that, and if EA wants to make both human goalies AND cpu goalies more effective, they need to fix the serious mobility issues that goalies in this series are greatly hindered by.

Goaltending is the most important position in hockey--so why is EA wasting their time with crappy improvements that barely touch the core of the position? 2k10 goalies both lived and died by their increased mobility--on the one hand, the way they moved laterally and vertically was phenomenal. On the other hand, they quickly became too out of control, because, well, there was no control. EA makes goaltending in this game way more complicated than it needs to be. The L1/LB button that is supposed to slow down goalie movement isn't a fix at all because goalie movement is already messed up enough as it is. In no way will I ever need to move 3 quarters of an inch to my left or right to face a shot--because the width of my body, the reach of my gloves, and the flare of my pads, should always allow me to cover much more net than I am actually taking up when I am in my ready stance. EA needs to increase goaltending mobility without going too Marc-Andre Fleury-like like 2k10 did.

Once we see realistic goalie skating I am willing to bet that 99% of the lame glitch goals we see online and 99% of the terrible AI goaltending we see in our offline games is gone. The EA goalies DON'T need an AI enhancement. Well, they do, that's just not the priority. What they REALLY need is a SKATING enhancement, as Rogie Vachon basically said.

PS: I haven't read this whole thread yet so sorry if things have already been resolved/said in my post.

[RealmK]

Quote: Originally Posted by ch46647

Realm, have you played NHL 13? Thanks!

Not quite that lucky no. Just going off by what I'd like to see addressed and what devs have said.

[RealmK]

Quote: Originally Posted by Revan30

So RealmK in the early pages of this thread was complaining about goalie movement not mattering--it 110% matters. If EA fixed goalie movement and positioning the gameplay would be so much better. Anyone who plays or knows anything about hockey knows that goalies have to be the 'best' skaters on the team. This doesn't mean the fastest--but in terms of lateral agility, they need to have the quickest short-distance burst speed. If EA took the mechanics that they're using for the "burst" speed that they've been constantly advertising on their forwards and put it on goalies, cross-creases and whatnot would never happen.

I never said goalie movement didn't matter, I was more alluding to the idea that any changes in animations could possibly open up a lot more glitches. I'm no expert on goalies, and I don't play online as one so I'm far from an expert on where the issues are with that.

Citing doom and gloom however based on an alpha build 4 months from ship is a tad silly imo however.

[Revan30]

Quote: Originally Posted by RealmK

I never said goalie movement didn't matter, I was more alluding to the idea that any changes in animations could possibly open up a lot more glitches. I'm no expert on goalies, and I don't play online as one so I'm far from an expert on where the issues are with that. Citing doom and gloom however based on an alpha build 4 months from ship is a tad silly imo however.

Yes, but having been following the releasing of several EA NHL products for years now I know from experience that EA announces almost all of their big chances within the first few several weeks after first announcing the game...and that time period has really long since passed. In fact, almost all of the changes EA ever introduces are announced very early on, since they really don't ever do that many outside of a few large enhancements and maybe one or two very small ones :P

[jesushaxyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by Revan30

Yes, but having been following the releasing of several EA NHL products for years now I know from experience that EA announces almost all of their big chances within the first few several weeks after first announcing the game...and that time period has really long since passed. In fact, almost all of the changes EA ever introduces are announced very early on, since they really don't ever do that many outside of a few large enhancements and maybe one or two very small ones :P

Which is why I'm a lot more optimistic that they're still withholding information from us. Lots of good changes seem to be coming, but as we all know from experience; they don't all translate into the game as advertised.