Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

[ch46647]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

I ran it opposite the commit after I created that video and if the CB opposite the Commit gets blocked it's a home run if you have a speed back. The thing that really made me mad was I would purposely run to the left side. I would also shift the defensive line and linebackers that way and run commit the other way. On the snap the entire front seven just takes off to the right although I shifted them all left. I don't like the feature. Childish IMO. I mean I think it's pretty weak that just because I'm running left and you run commit left, now my OL is not going to block. And to add to what you've implied, I'm for getting rid of anything that makes the ratings obsolete, like this feature does. They do need things in the game where you can add logic to your run defense, but not this kinda stuff. Unfortunately it's all they are giving us. With them having this in Madden this year, makes me wonder if there are some home run run plays or some annoying 3 to 5 yard QB sneak up the middle things that are money and this is your only recourse to stop it.

Well atleast if you run "commit" to the wrong side you will pay the price for it. The only time I would ever use run commit is if it was short yardage and I thought it was a QB sneak. I would run commit to the middle. The left and right run commit are useless for the exact reason you just explained. However, I do like the pass commit button making my AI players more aware of the pass. That is realistic because when it is obvious passing downs my AI controlled players should me made aware of that. I just wish they would also make the D-ENDs get up field and create a pocket when I select that.

LBZ, I do agree that they absolutely need to overhal OL and DL play. Hopefully they do what they did with the passing game and add 400+ new animations and also add physics on top of that for next year.

[LBzrule]

OK guys after second thought, they should be able to do something to this. When I look at what they did with slide protection for this year, which I think is a good addition (that works pretty well), they should be able to do something to this. I hope they do something with the line crashes.

[sgibs7]

i personally think that it SHOULD be an all out gamble - if you are telling your team that the run is coming to the right or left and your wrong - you should pay big time

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by sgibs7

i personally think that it SHOULD be an all out gamble - if you are telling your team that the run is coming to the right or left and your wrong - you should pay big time

Gibs, I was waiting for you to chime in. Frankly, with the language of commit I can see how one would reason that it should be this way. One of the reasons I responded to one of the posters by saying I think we are talking about two different things is because of the language "commit" does put one in that mindset. My picture of commit is different. I don't see how one can commit to anything without making a read. Taking it into another arena of life, a guy or girl who "commits" to someone without asking some questions will more than likely always end up disappointed. Going back to the game, committing to a toss right should not be the same thing as committing to a Wide Zone right.

Just thinking it through I think what they need to do is take the crash right and left and make it like the original post.

I think run commit the way it is, just should not be in the game at all. My reasoning is as follows:

Just because a player tells the defense to sell out on a run to the left does not mean that the offensive line for the player on offense should now forget what their assignments are. Why is my offense punished completely just because the other player has his defense crashing that way?

Second, even if a person tells their defense to sell out on a run why should that now mean the ratings are thrown out the window? We see threads every year about how Donny doesn't rate guys right. There is some merit to this. We see threads about how the ratings in this game do not matter? Well with gimmick features like run commit, those people are exactly right. Ratings get throw right out of the window and continues to feed the negative perception of the game. How are players distinguished with a feature like this? Everyone now has the same ability? read, react timing? block shedding tackling ability? All because someone pushed commit right/left/middle? And now the entire offensive line becomes the five stooges and a bumbling TE???

Third, these type of features take us out of a football mindset and into dealing with game play abuses (Yeah I may be being a bit idealistic here in thinking game play faults can be minimized via the developer). I'm just thinking back to the first time run commit appeared in this series and I can be wrong here. If my memory is not failing me the first time it showed up was in 2005 and it only had one function and that was run commit middle to stop the QB sneak and FB dive out of goal line sets that people abused in 2004 online and on the competitive scene. Then in 2005 the juke glitch was introduced and it opened up a new can of worms. Madden 2006 gave us the vision cone in an attempt to deal with drop back passing. Madden 2007 was when I first remember run commit left/right. It might have been in 2006 I'm not for sure. The entire feature is generated around abuses and the feature itself led to abuse as guys would just come out in Quarters (this became a base defense for people and they stayed it in all game long) and run commit and blow up the run and still have great pass coverage.

Fourth, something is being revealed underneath all of this. You can't keep ignoring an infectious cut by simply putting band aids on it. It's an infection and it needs immediate treatment. The infection in this case is Madden does not have run defensive principles built into the defense. They have acknowledged this. When discussing gap control in 2009, the answer I got was, there are no gaps, guys just move to an area. Something like this you would think deserves immediate attention. Well, we are going on four years...


Let's think about it by entertaining a question. What would have been the effectiveness of Strong Close Toss and Off Tackle back in Madden 10 had the game had run defensive principles built into the defense? Hypothetically, more people would not have had that as a base offense with run principles in place. Instead, it was the offense of choice by a great deal of gamers and even now people still look for strong close as a formation in whatever book they are going to choose. Why? No run defensive principles in the game. Adding run commit is not going to help that. All it is going to do is keep the status quo of playing undisciplined run defense afloat. Second, something that people need on defense would already be there now and they could simply be building on that instead of bringing back gimmicks like run commit to deal with what are probably going to be problems in the game this year. Just seems like a backward process. We'll give you flash up front and work on the substance when we can????


Run Defensive Principles need to be added over gimmick features like Run Commit. And I think they need to do what they can this year before they ship this game either by changing crash left/right and let the DL be detatched from the OL. A few things contribute to why run commit works the way it does.

1) The DL is completely detached from the OL.
2) The movement is extreme in whichever way you call it.
3) The OL just says forget it

All I'm saying is they need to keep #1 and tweak #2 to less extreme movement in the direction and Ditch #3 altogether. If they were to do that without the back side defender logic, I would accept that for this year and just play as the back side defender myself.

It will allow OL and DL ratings to remain in tact, which in turn will begin to help eliminate the all or nothing game play. That is, even if you have the correct call, that does not mean you should automatically stop it. Football is too complex of a game for that.

[CRMosier_LM]

Agree x1000 with SGibs7

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[speedy9386]

I'm not overly adept with the strategies of football but do teams ever blindly commit to a side like that in real life?

[jfsolo]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Gibs, I was waiting for you to chime in. Frankly, with the language of commit I can see how one would reason that it should be this way. One of the reasons I responded to one of the posters by saying I think we are talking about two different things is because of the language "commit" does put one in that mindset. My picture of commit is different. I don't see how one can commit to anything without making a read. Taking it into another arena of life, a guy or girl who "commits" to someone without asking some questions will more than likely always end up disappointed. Going back to the game, committing to a toss right should not be the same thing as committing to a Wide Zone right. Just thinking it through I think what they need to do is take the crash right and left and make it like the original post. I think run commit the way it is, just should not be in the game at all. My reasoning is as follows: Just because a player tells the defense to sell out on a run to the left does not mean that the offensive line for the player on offense should now forget what their assignments are. Why is my offense punished completely just because the other player has his defense crashing that way? Second, even if a person tells their defense to sell out on a run why should that now mean the ratings are thrown out the window? We see threads every year about how Donny doesn't rate guys right. There is some merit to this. We see threads about how the ratings in this game do not matter? Well with gimmick features like run commit, those people are exactly right. Ratings get throw right out of the window and continues to feed the negative perception of the game. How are players distinguished with a feature like this? Everyone now has the same ability? read, react timing? block shedding tackling ability? All because someone pushed commit right/left/middle? And now the entire offensive line becomes the five stooges and a bumbling TE??? Third, these type of features take us out of a football mindset and into dealing with game play abuses (Yeah I may be being a bit idealistic here in thinking game play faults can be minimized via the developer). I'm just thinking back to the first time run commit appeared in this series and I can be wrong here. If my memory is not failing me the first time it showed up was in 2005 and it only had one function and that was run commit middle to stop the QB sneak and FB dive out of goal line sets that people abused in 2004 online and on the competitive scene. Then in 2005 the juke glitch was introduced and it opened up a new can of worms. Madden 2006 gave us the vision cone in an attempt to deal with drop back passing. Madden 2007 was when I first remember run commit left/right. It might have been in 2006 I'm not for sure. The entire feature is generated around abuses and the feature itself led to abuse as guys would just come out in Quarters (this became a base defense for people and they stayed it in all game long) and run commit and blow up the run and still have great pass coverage. Fourth, something is being revealed underneath all of this. You can't keep ignoring an infectious cut by simply putting band aids on it. It's an infection and it needs immediate treatment. The infection in this case is Madden does not have run defensive principles built into the defense. They have acknowledged this. When discussing gap control in 2009, the answer I got was, there are no gaps, guys just move to an area. Something like this you would think deserves immediate attention. Well, we are going on four years... Let's think about it by entertaining a question. What would have been the effectiveness of Strong Close Toss and Off Tackle back in Madden 10 had the game had run defensive principles built into the defense? Hypothetically, more people would not have had that as a base offense with run principles in place. Instead, it was the offense of choice by a great deal of gamers and even now people still look for strong close as a formation in whatever book they are going to choose. Why? No run defensive principles in the game. Adding run commit is not going to help that. All it is going to do is keep the status quo of playing undisciplined run defense afloat. Second, something that people need on defense would already be there now and they could simply be building on that instead of bringing back gimmicks like run commit to deal with what are probably going to be problems in the game this year. Just seems like a backward process. We'll give you flash up front and work on the substance when we can???? Run Defensive Principles need to be added over gimmick features like Run Commit. And I think they need to do what they can this year before they ship this game either by changing crash left/right and let the DL be detatched from the OL. A few things contribute to why run commit works the way it does. 1) The DL is completely detached from the OL. 2) The movement is extreme in whichever way you call it. 3) The OL just says forget it All I'm saying is they need to keep #1 and tweak #2 to less extreme movement in the direction and Ditch #3 altogether. If they were to do that without the back side defender logic, I would accept that for this year and just play as the back side defender myself. It will allow OL and DL ratings to remain in tact, which in turn will begin to help eliminate the all or nothing game play. That is, even if you have the correct call, that does not mean you should automatically stop it. Football is too complex of a game for that.

What you're saying is of course 1000% correct. At the very least remove the Tecmo style win or lose result from the call. In a big picture analysis, how many man-hours would it take to add gap control/real run defense principles. For something that will never be a marketable feature, too many hours may always make this a cost prohibitive fix.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by speedy9386

I'm not overly adept with the strategies of football but do teams ever blindly commit to a side like that in real life?

Hell No. That's the biggest reason why I wrote this. And I think getting underneath the underpinnings of why EA added it to the game reveals that it is a GIMMICK to deal with abuses in their game. Rather than going to the meat of the problem, they keep putting a band aid on it.

Now I will say that the language and logic makes sense in practical scenarios. For instance, in life, if I am on a field running right then I cannot be going left. That type of logic makes sense. Ahh, but that is not how defensive football works one bit. Was just reading Dean Pees this morning and he had this to say about playing Ravens defense.

Quote:

“You’ve got to be tough. It’s a basic to playing defense.” “You’ve got know your assignments. You have to know what to do.” “You’ve got to give great effort.”

Credit Baltimoreravens.com Kevin Byrne

The key one for this discussion is the one in the middle. That one right there should tell anyone that there is no such thing is BLINDLY doing whatever. It's always about reading and reacting.

What it boils down to and I am not going to necessarily disagree with gibs, bootz ect because their argument is on a different plane. They arguing from within the Madden program and how things work and how they can be balanced in that regard. I'm arguing about something outside the program that needs to be in it and is a better solution than the gimmick.