Madden NFL 12 Player Ratings - Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

The reason most of these posts are ignored is because people can't handle logic, reason, and truth. I try to bring evidence over and over again and it seems I am only met with opinion.

I don't know, so far most of what I read from you is opinion. But that's to be expected when rating players. I give my opinion, but that's after I've watched EVERY SINGLE PACKER GAME. I think you do the best that you personally can since it would be very time consuming to watch every single play of every single game.

And again, did you see Finley get separation on the DB last night? It was a safety, but still a DB. Did you also see Quarless get separation on that medium slant. Both were out wide. With DJ Williams, GB will have scary TE's this year.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I was not referring to the OVR ratings. I was referring to the whole SPD vs. Technique issue. I agree that OVR ratings are WIDELY speculative and open to opinion. If they weren't, we wouldn't have these great discussions!

The only ratings that would be less "opinion" would be physical ratings, and even those are opinion more than fact. The rest are ALL opinion. But that is the nature of the game, and the best you can do. I just seem to disagree with some of your Opinions on packer ratings. I say packer ratings because that's the only team I follow with such DEPTH. The rest of the teams I follow just casually.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

It's not based on two plays. Just two examples. If it was not much more in depth than that, they both would not have been 71 OVRs before that point. Shields played very well as a rookie. But then again, so did Tyrone Williams in 96. I have seen every Packer game since 1995 either in person or on TV. You fail to realize that teams will start players based on particular skill sets over others. Bush came into that season with more experience as I pointed out, and it showed in the Super Bowl. I don't recall him getting torched for a TD in that game.

Didn't he get torched in the END ZONE by Hines Ward? You miss that? I don't hold that against Bush like you seem to hold one play against Shields. Bush started off as a BAD DB. He turned himself into almost an average DB. Seems he's even gotten better this year. But he read ONE play correctly in the SB to make a great read and play. Shields was doing that all season. You say you've watched all GB games since 95. I'm not you, so I can't say you don't, but I have a VERY HARD TIME BELIEVING IT.

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

And BTW, Bush was rated as 71 as a FS, not a CB. Convert that rating to a CB and its probably more like a 65. Shields is a better CB than Bush, yes. But not when Bush is a FS and Shields a CB. You are forgetting that Madden has different OVR rating calculations for different positions.

I don't care what Bush and Shields were rated in the game last year, or this year, Shields was and is much better than Bush as a DB.

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

And yes, I fully understand that Tramon broke the play up, but Bush was also there in coverage, not picking his nose back at the goal line.

Just stop. I could say dumb things like Bush was picking his nose at the Goal Line when he got beat by Ward. Please stop with those dumb comments.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by genghisfrog

Bush is terrible period.

Bush isn't terrible. He used to be. He turned himself into a marginal Nickel and an OK fourth. He's made progress in coverage even between last year and this year. But he definitely was not better than Shields, even in Shields rookie year.

Quote: Originally Posted by genghisfrog

He is good on special teams and that's it.

He is great on special teams. And he has gotten much better in coverage lately. He may be GB's 4th or 5th CB. And he is probably better than any other teams 4th or 5th CB. But that's just about it.

Quote: Originally Posted by genghisfrog

The only reason he got that pick is because he studied film and knew Big Ben would throw it to Wallace so he left his man wide open and broke on the ball. Asked to play man 2 man, Bush can't cover anyone.

I give Bush MUCH KUDOS for studying and recognizing that play. He deserves that. But I somewhat agree that Shields is much better in coverage than Bush is.

Quote: Originally Posted by genghisfrog

There is a reason the Packers had the best nickel pass d in the league this past year and it's not because of Bush. Sam Shields had a better statistical season than DRC, but I'm sure DRC isn't a 71 overall in your ratings. So keep thinking your ratings are accurate based on the limited research you've done.

Yeah, kind of crazy someone rating Shields so low. He was basically our starting CB as Woodson really played the nickel position.

Quote: Originally Posted by genghisfrog

The Steelers came back in the game after SHields and Woodson both got hurt. Bush had to play and was terrible outside of his INT. Remember that TD he gave up, yeah, thought so. Remember the Arizona game last year? Barnett and Bush got abused all day. Remember any game that Bush has played, he got abused in coverage.

With Tramon, Shields and Wooodson in the game, the Steelers were really doing NOTHING offensively in the SB. They really only did anything on offense when Woodson and Shields were out. You speak 100% truth. I guess some people would call that opinion.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by genghisfrog

Bush is terrible period. He is good on special teams and that's it. The only reason he got that pick is because he studied film and knew Big Ben would throw it to Wallace so he left his man wide open and broke on the ball. Asked to play man 2 man, Bush can't cover anyone. There is a reason the Packers had the best nickel pass d in the league this past year and it's not because of Bush. Sam Shields had a better statistical season than DRC, but I'm sure DRC isn't a 71 overall in your ratings. So keep thinking your ratings are accurate based on the limited research you've done. The Steelers came back in the game after SHields and Woodson both got hurt. Bush had to play and was terrible outside of his INT. Remember that TD he gave up, yeah, thought so. Remember the Arizona game last year? Barnett and Bush got abused all day. Remember any game that Bush has played, he got abused in coverage.

Limited research? I have ratings for 17000+ players! All based on scouting data! How is that "limited"? EA can't even boast that! In fact, I don't think anyone online can.

Bush is definitely the worse of the two as a CB, but when you move Bush and his skills to the FS position, his OVR matches that Shields. Did you ever play football? Ever coach? If you did you would realize that teams move players around to play to their strengths.

Was Bush playing CB or FS in those situations? CB. And I said that as a CB he only equates to a 65 at best. But since he largely played FS until injuries occurred, that is how he was rated?

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

And Shields shouldn't have been a 71. He was basically our starting CB. GB D was in nickel most of the time, and in the nickel, Woodson is the nickel back. I like how Bush is progressing as a DB, I'm not a Bush basher, but if you think Bush is more aware than Shields you are crazy. One, Bush would be starting or the nickel back instead of Shields. And did you even watch Shields play during the season? After what you have written so far in this post, I'm convinced you don't know what you are doing. Yes, I do contend that Bush is the more aware player because of his experience...and it isn't by much as you can see. And did you notice the separation Finley got on that safety last night? Watch the video. They have all 3 grabs. That last one for 17 yards is not what I would call seperation. The DB, #23 Hamza Abdullah, gave him the inside on the post, then quickly closed in for the tackle. That is the 86 SPD of Abdullah vs. the 77 SPD of Finley. If Finley had such great separation, why didn't he take it for a larger run after the catch? He caught the ball at the 30 and was tackled at the 33 after having the inside and maybe a yard of separation at most. Not great separation if you ask me. And as for the deep one that they missed on, that was against Joey Porter with his BLAZING 72 SPD, a full 5 under that of Finley and a guy he SHOULD beat even without getting into better position. Under the TT McCarthy regime, they put in the best player until the kid with the higher ceiling plays better. Sure Shields has a lot to learn, but he is still ahead of Bush as a DB. He's not in there because he's young with a higher ceiling, he's in there because he's already better than Bush. Get out of here with this crap. Shields is ahead of Bush as a CB. Shields still has a ton to learn and his ratings reflect that. False, they chose to put the better DB in. He has better cover skills, better balls skills. Bush is just starting to become on OK DB after 5-6 years. They played two different positions. Shields is by far the better CB. He was ahead of Bush. As much as I like Bush and am happy he's progressing as a DB, he STILL is not ready to start. I never said Bush was ready to start. I just said that as a FS, his strengths are further exemplified which allowed him to stand out a bit more. I don't want to hide the overall, but I do want it to be inaccurate, or a range, that gets more accurate with how good your GM, Scouts, and Coaches evaluate and how long the player is in the NFL. But you COULD NOT BE MORE OFF ON SHIELDS AND BUSH.

They largely played two different positions all last year. I am not saying that Bush is the better player as a CB. But I am saying that he did make up for his lesser physical ability with better recognition skills. That's what FS's have to do back there. Read, and react.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

The only ratings that would be less "opinion" would be physical ratings, and even those are opinion more than fact. The rest are ALL opinion. But that is the nature of the game, and the best you can do. I just seem to disagree with some of your Opinions on packer ratings. I say packer ratings because that's the only team I follow with such DEPTH. The rest of the teams I follow just casually.

All of these ratings are based on higher opinions than ours though. The scouting data is pretty legit from TSX. After all, they provide ALL the NCAA and NFL scouting data for CBS Sports.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

Didn't he get torched in the END ZONE by Hines Ward? You miss that? I don't hold that against Bush like you seem to hold one play against Shields. Bush started off as a BAD DB. He turned himself into almost an average DB. Seems he's even gotten better this year. But he read ONE play correctly in the SB to make a great read and play. Shields was doing that all season. You say you've watched all GB games since 95. I'm not you, so I can't say you don't, but I have a VERY HARD TIME BELIEVING IT. I have. I was in 5th grade and haven't missed a game on TV or in person since. I even made sure that when I left WI that I had a way to see all the games on Directv. It's a pretty big deal to me. In fact, I got to meet a bunch of them down here in Dallas at the Omni Hotel when they stayed about 2 miles away from where I currently reside. I don't care what Bush and Shields were rated in the game last year, or this year, Shields was and is much better than Bush as a DB. When both are rated as CBs, Shields is much better. When Shields is a CB and Bush a FS, they have equal OVR ratings in Madden. Just stop. I could say dumb things like Bush was picking his nose at the Goal Line when he got beat by Ward. Please stop with those dumb comments.

I will choose to comment as I wish. That's the great thing about a forum so long as you obey the forum rules.