Madden NFL 12 Gameplay Preview

[ChaseB]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

"I don't understand why they don't put animations in to account for it though. Sure, let folks roll & chuck, but make the QB plant, turn & throw. It's beyond being unrealistic. It ruins the timing of the game. And EA forgets someone is playing defense as well. Why call defenses, get pressure, only to have the QB roll, spin & throw a strike?" --ChaseB: I agree with this, the timing of these things should be sequenced out. I think the issue is the potential for over-animation, although in this case it would only be doing so because you were trying to do something that takes a few steps to do properly (turn around since back is to the field, re-plant, throw). Rolling out and throwing would still be valid and quicker, I just think the throwing animations need to be increased to make this look better. And, yes, I also agree that it needs to be realized that there's a double-edged sword going on in that department of offense vs. defense. "And that type of gliding kills the spacing & timing of the game. Because he's not having to plant his feet on some of those changes in direction, he gained more yards than he should've... or at least gained them faster than he should've. That "cut" at the 30 yard line? He should'nt have been able to turn up the field without having to plant." --ChaseB: Again, preaching to the choir here. The foot planting has not been right in the past. Sometimes I think it's just tied to really fast/quick players, and the game just can't register that type of speed. And then the other problem is how the players' feet are reacting to the ground after the initial impact. I think of a game like NHL 11, which sometimes has the same issues with speed after contact -- tied more to certain animations in that game though.

Replies in bold/italics above.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChaseB

Challenge system seemed to be the same, and I did not see any new penalties -- but that does not necessarily mean there are not new ones. I did not see any 'ghosting' but, again, I would be shocked if something like that is entirely gone. Ghosting of some sort happens in every sports game in some situation at some point.

I'd be satisfied with no new penalties as long the ones that were already in the game, well, worked. From conversations had at CD 2 years ago, I know the issue with pass interference was that they didn't have animations built into the game to account for a defender/receiver interfering. All PIs that are currently called in Madden are a result of incidental contact (or if the user tackles the receiver with the ball in-air). That said, I'll be disappointed if they presumably had mo-cap sessions and still didn't add grabbing/holding animations. PI is a game-changing penalty IRL, and it needs to be reflected in a similar fashion in Madden.

Shoot, I can't count how many times my QB gets smacked well after he's thrown the ball with no roughing-the-passer flag in sight!

Quote: Originally Posted by ChaseB

I've seen a couple comparisons to NBA 2K, so I feel like I should clear up I guess this misconception. For YEARS NBA 2K -- much like The Show up until this year -- got crap for not being revolutionary enough or not taking enough risks or whatever you want to call it. NBA 2K11 added some really helpful new things to the controls this year, and also redid dribbling -- also really helpful. But in the grand scheme of things, on the court it's the same game it has been for years. But the point is that NBA 2K did not get to where it is making these MASSIVE, ground-breaking achievements on a yearly basis. They found a base (and an engine) that was really good, sound and customizable, and have done an incredible job building and adding to it on a yearly basis.

Great point.

[DJ]

Quote: Originally Posted by Armor & Sword

Hey DJ. While I agree the games like NBA2K11 (still going strong for me) and MLB The Show 2011 are no question the class of sports games. Madden 11 and NCAA 11 were very good efforts. Now Madden 11 off the field was...blech. But Monday may change your mind. If Madden 11 had a much better franchise mode I would not be trading it in. And the fact that NCAA 12 will also be sharing the graphical and tackling enhancments as well as the defensive AI overhaul makes both games a buy for me. I really think we will probably get the best yet from both. I love my football and more importantly I want depth and i think Madden 12 will give us the depth that us harcore offline franchise players want. No it wil not be HC09 depth, but i am expecting a major upgrade. Monday will prove this. (At least that is my high hope). And if Madden 2012 does not prove to me it made the changes that I personally wanted to see (we all have different expectations and needs) then no doubt it will be my last Madden purchase for years to come. And if the changes are made...it will again be the last Madden for me for at least 2 years.

Yeah, Monday will be big in terms of franchise info. That's a huge selling point for me. I still feel buyers' remorse over Madden 11; I should've just stayed with 10 for another year as there wasn't enough of a change to warrant a switch, imo.

I've been playing these games for 20-plus years, so things really need to wow me to get me to pay full-price for games. NBA 2K11 did that by adding Jordan and all that went with him being in the game, not to mention the on-court improvements they made. MLB The Show just does so much right it's hard not to support that title.

Madden and NCAA really rubbed myself and a lot of people the wrong way with their respective performances on this generation of consoles, especially from 06-09. Madden started to turn a corner in 10, and stayed stagnant last year. Hopefully things continue to move forward. I feel like NCAA 11 made significant advances from years past, but so far 12 doesn't look all that different from 11 (reminds of Madden 11-Madden 10 comparisons).

The demos will play a big part, too.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChaseB

Ha well, I think you're probably reading a little too much into what I said, and for the record I've never asked the developers directly about this, so I'm not speaking for them in this regard. I would think, as someone else said, they perhaps have just not found the right balance yet in terms of how to deal with it more than anything. I can't really think of another game that nailed this issue either. So it strikes me that it's probably really hard to get throwing on the run and all that correct while still staying functional and relatively fun for a broad base of gamers. I've seen a couple comparisons to NBA 2K, so I feel like I should clear up I guess this misconception. For YEARS NBA 2K -- much like The Show up until this year -- got crap for not being revolutionary enough or not taking enough risks or whatever you want to call it. NBA 2K11 added some really helpful new things to the controls this year, and also redid dribbling -- also really helpful. But in the grand scheme of things, on the court it's the same game it has been for years. But the point is that NBA 2K did not get to where it is making these MASSIVE, ground-breaking achievements on a yearly basis. They found a base (and an engine) that was really good, sound and customizable, and have done an incredible job building and adding to it on a yearly basis. What you want sounds more like what NBA Elite attempted in one year than anything else.

I don't want to turn this into a debate thread, because I'm sure that's not what you intended this thread to be, but I had to comment on these two points of yours, quickly.

The first point about the balance of animation and control. I'm not sure that it is a balance issue for them. 2K has animations to address these issues, not just in their football game, but in many of their sports titles, if not all of them. Now, whether you feel they "nailed" this aspect or not, their design choices tend to skew towards simulation. I'm not saying that these issues are easy to contend with, by any stretch, but let's be frank, the developers of Madden aren't even trying.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the devs are intelligent enough to know that some of the actions performed in the game in general, QB's throwing on the run or across their bodies specifically, aren't physically possible. That being the case, I have to assume that the game's lack of addressing those issues are nothing other than design choices, ie this is how they want the game to play, for what ever reason. And even if, as you say, the engines somehow prevent them from tackling these issues, they are the ones who designed them, so it still boils down to design choice.

The question isn't can they address them, it is will they ever come around to the possibility that they can design a game where you can not perform unrealistic actions, and that players will understand that this is ok.

The NBA 2K point. I think most people understand that NBA 2K and the Show are still very similar to their last gen iterations, though there is no denying the additions and strides they've made. So I don't really think there is a misconception there. The difference, for many people, and this is why they make the comparisons that they do, is that although Madden has, likewise, definitely made additions and improvements over the years, many feel like it needs drastic changes before it can get to the point where a tweak here or tweak there is viewed in the same light as the tweak here, tweak there approach that 2K and the Show have largely employed.

When you already love the foundation of a game, then any positive additions or improvements are met with adulation. When you hate the foundation, then small additions are met with a different sentiment, closer to loathing lol. That's where those types of comments really come from. It's really just in the eye of the beholder.

[WFColonel56]

has the 4-3 defense changes any?...its been the same 3 formations since 04..

and are there any new plays in the 4-3 formations?

is there a 4-4 stack defense? (the formation that people commonly think about when you say 4-4)

[Armor and Sword]

Quote: Originally Posted by DJ

Yeah, Monday will be big in terms of franchise info. That's a huge selling point for me. I still feel buyers' remorse over Madden 11; I should've just stayed with 10 for another year as there wasn't enough of a change to warrant a switch, imo. I've been playing these games for 20-plus years, so things really need to wow me to get me to pay full-price for games. NBA 2K11 did that by adding Jordan and all that went with him being in the game, not to mention the on-court improvements they made. MLB The Show just does so much right it's hard not to support that title. Madden and NCAA really rubbed myself and a lot of people the wrong way with their respective performances on this generation of consoles, especially from 06-09. Madden started to turn a corner in 10, and stayed stagnant last year. Hopefully things continue to move forward. I feel like NCAA 11 made significant advances from years past, but so far 12 doesn't look all that different from 11 (reminds of Madden 11-Madden 10 comparisons). The demos will play a big part, too.

Oh I hear you. I also have been playing 20 plus years so we can call ourselves the pioneer console sports gamers lol. I did not go next gen till late 2009 so I was spared the frustration of Madden 06-09. I learned from my jump from PS to PS2 to wait at least 2 years before changing consoles to let the developers to get their footing with the new power at their disposal. So my first next gen Madden was 2010 and the first Madden I had purchased since Madden 2007 for PS2. NCAA 2011 was my first NCAA title since 2007 also for PS2. So I have not been as jaded by the last few years of sub standard football games.

I took a chance by trading in my current titles (Madden 11 NCAA11) and I am going to roll with the new ones. I really hope I don't regeret it. With NCAA 11 it was tough because the game is truly awesome. But the new Graphics engine as well as the improved tackling and defensive AI made it a must buy. I don't see myself getting anymore football titles till at least the 2014 versions are released.

[BezO]

Another question Chase...

I watched the NCAA vids and noticed a lot of legacy issues. Can you comment on any of these?

-Defensive Alignment - I remember reading about this being a point of emphasis, but it still looked like a problem in NCAA. Are you noticing the defense allowing themselves to be out flanked? For example, I noticed in the NCAA vids, on the TE side, both the DE & OLB line up inside the TE sometimes.

-Contain - In addition to the alignment issues, DEs & OLBs still seem unaware of contain responsibilities. Is it still too easy to run outside? Especially with no engaged player lateral mobility, unless the OLB or DE "wins", too often, it's one-on-one on the edge with a CB.

-Any special teams improvements? Any double teams on the gunners on punts? Any new kick/punt return plays? Was the surprise onside in?

[DJ]

Quote: Originally Posted by Armor & Sword

Oh I hear you. I also have been playing 20 plus years so we can call ourselves the pioneer console sports gamers lol. I did not go next gen till late 2009 so I was spared the frustration of Madden 06-09. I learned from my jump from PS to PS2 to wait at least 2 years before changing consoles to let the developers to get their footing with the new power at their disposal. So my first next gen Madden was 2010 and the first Madden I had purchased since Madden 2007 for PS2. NCAA 2011 was my first NCAA title since 2007 also for PS2. So I have not been as jaded by the last few years of sub standard football games. I took a chance by trading in my current titles (Madden 11 NCAA11) and I am going to roll with the new ones. I really hope I don't regeret it. With NCAA 11 it was tough because the game is truly awesome. But the new Graphics engine as well as the improved tackling and defensive AI made it a must buy. I don't see myself getting anymore football titles till at least the 2014 versions are released.

I hope you don't regret the decision, either. I do think we will see some offline franchise improvement in Madden 12 and NCAA 12 will be a tightened-up version of NCAA 11, which as you said, is very good. As an FSU alumn, it's going to be hard not to get that game just due to the fact that Chief Osceola and Renegade are in the game.

I'm going to wait until Monday's blog about Franchise before I make a decision about what I'm going to do this year. Either I will trade in both 11 games and get this year's versions (and ride with them until the next gen of consoles), or I'll stick with what I've got and just play that for another year.