Tiger Woods PGA Tour 12: The Masters Initial Impressions

[ExtremeGamer]

Read a rumor on Twitter that in your career mode that no matter what difficulty you're using, to qualify for the Masters, you have to use the hardest difficulty. Can anyone confirm that?

[DivotMaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by ExtremeGamer

Read a rumor on Twitter that in your career mode that no matter what difficulty you're using, to qualify for the Masters, you have to use the hardest difficulty. Can anyone confirm that?

Not true. My understanding is every difficulty level from Amateur through Tournament qualifies for the Masters.

[ExtremeGamer]

Quote: Originally Posted by DivotMaker

Not true. My understanding is every difficulty level from Amateur through Tournament qualifies for the Masters.

Whew, thanks man.

[Dazraz]

Just received my copy of TW12 & spent some time with the game. My initial impression is one of disappointment. After being so pleased with the demo I really thought this years game would be a big upgrade. Sadly not.
Outside of the well presented Masters mode the game is poorly presented. You don't even get the Hole Fly by's prior to each hole anymore & player cut scenes have all but been eliminated by the caddy popping up prior to each shot. The option not to switch the caddy off permanently is an odd one. Like EA are forcing us to use an option they have decided to include.
Commentary is, as always, bad. Unless of course you are playing at Augusta.
Graphically the game is very inconsistent with some poor frame rates at times. Hard to compare player models because you only ever see their back end due to the aforementioned removal of player cut scenes.
EA have taken out the broadcast presentation elements in an effort to give the player the feeling of actually playing the round from the players perspective. It doesn't really succeed & you now appear to get less of a feel for the hole/course that you are playing.

[peigone]

Quote: Originally Posted by pietasterp

I also have thought that in this day and age, with how far basketball and hockey and soccer gaming has come, that golf games would be leaps-and-bounds ahead of where they are now. The point is that shon is dead-on w/ my experience with the TW series - there's no sense that you're a on an active course, there's just the feeling that you're playing individual holes in a vacuum. Also, I agree with MHammer - context is everything in sports (and by extension, sports gaming)....if you win a title or do something dramatic, the game should react appropriately.

Fabulous post pietasterp. I've been PC golfing since the early 1990's, and your post strikes a real chord with me. Years ago -- sometime around the demise of the golf sim era (Links and FPS Golf) I recall going into an electronics store and watching one of the store's salespeople playing a golf game that was being shown on their wall of televisions. At first I thought it was a TV broadcast of a live PGA tournament. It was photo-realistic, and the commentary and applause sounded like a live broadcast crew and gallery. (Never did find out what that game was BTW.)

Anyway, THAT'S where I expected golf sims to be several years down the road. But something happened in between then and now -- the game console took over. Funny, this morning I was just reading a "Developer's Diary" article about MLB 2K9. In it, the fellow was waxing philosophical about the need to remove (dumb down) certain features that were in MLB 2K8 because "pickup and play users struggled with figuring it out."

That's the gaming era we're in now. Basically, if young people aren't interested, then developers have little or no motivation to add it to the game. And young people would not think twice about the fact that when they hit a ball 40 yards left of the fairway, that the ball is magically respawned back on the fairway with a stroke penalty. If anything, that's what they want in a game because it speeds things up and keeps it simple.

It's also why past features like course creation tools were removed, why the ability to edit and add PGA pros was removed, why the ability to create your own custom season was removed, etc. and so forth. I also be believe it's why photo-realism has never been introduced into this series. The look of the game, and the bright color palettes they use, have been kept cartoon-like for the same reasons -- it all appeals to young people.

[DivotMaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by peigone

Fabulous post pietasterp. I've been PC golfing since the early 1990's, and your post strikes a real chord with me. Years ago -- sometime around the demise of the golf sim era (Links and FPS Golf) I recall going into an electronics store and watching one of the store's salespeople playing a golf game that was being shown on their wall of televisions. At first I thought it was a TV broadcast of a live PGA tournament. It was photo-realistic, and the commentary and applause sounded like a live broadcast crew and gallery. (Never did find out what that game was BTW.) Anyway, THAT'S where I expected golf sims to be several years down the road. But something happened in between then and now -- the game console took over. Funny, this morning I was just reading a "Developer's Diary" article about MLB 2K9. In it, the fellow was waxing philosophical about the need to remove (dumb down) certain features that were in MLB 2K8 because "pickup and play users struggled with figuring it out." That's the gaming era we're in now. Basically, if young people aren't interested, then developers have little or no motivation to add it to the game. And young people would not think twice about the fact that when they hit a ball 40 yards left of the fairway, that the ball is magically respawned back on the fairway with a stroke penalty. If anything, that's what they want in a game because it speeds things up and keeps it simple. It's also why past features like course creation tools were removed, why the ability to edit and add PGA pros was removed, why the ability to create your own custom season was removed, etc. and so forth. I also be believe it's why photo-realism has never been introduced into this series. The look of the game, and the bright color palettes they use, have been kept cartoon-like for the same reasons -- it all appeals to young people.

While one PC Golf game could be considered "photo-realistic", it was hampered by a 2D non-dynamic nor 3D environment which is certainly easier to render than what is rendered in TW12...by a LARGE MARGIN. Playing Links 2003 was like playing in a vacuum postcard environment, IMO. Zero animation of anything on the course other than the golfer, ball, and flag. EVERYTHING in TW12 is animated and the environments are dynamic with changing weather and lighting that changes as the day progresses. Huge difference from Links 2003....

Consoles have NEVER had a true course architect for various reasons, but the biggest reasons are:

1) Lack of harddrive for ALL consoles (360 is not standard, Wii has none)

2) No real way for most users to use a mouse and keyboard to design courses. No way could you design a course with a gamepad with any sort of quality.

3) The software tools to create courses (3D programs and tools) are extremely expensive and cumbersome for most users to use effectively.

There are various other reasons, but those are the biggest.

[peigone]

Quote: Originally Posted by DivotMaker

While one PC Golf game could be considered "photo-realistic", it was hampered by a 2D non-dynamic nor 3D environment which is certainly easier to render than what is rendered in TW12...by a LARGE MARGIN. Playing Links 2003 was like playing in a vacuum postcard environment, IMO. Zero animation of anything on the course other than the golfer, ball, and flag. EVERYTHING in TW12 is animated and the environments are dynamic with changing weather and lighting that changes as the day progresses. Huge difference from Links 2003.... Consoles have NEVER had a true course architect for various reasons, but the biggest reasons are: 1) Lack of harddrive for ALL consoles (360 is not standard, Wii has none) 2) No real way for most users to use a mouse and keyboard to design courses. No way could you design a course with a gamepad with any sort of quality. 3) The software tools to create courses (3D programs and tools) are extremely expensive and cumbersome for most users to use effectively. There are various other reasons, but those are the biggest.

You bring up some valid points, especially about designing courses using a controller. But is it a coincidence that even their Tiger-proofing course editing option was removed, just as downloaded courses and other game content started becoming a big money-maker? Why couldn't they have built on that, and at least offered a basic course design program that included various pre-designed templates to construct your course with? The motivation and interest to develop such a game tool isn't there, and that no doubt has much to do with the fact that selling courses as DLC is a big money-maker for them.

Also, player editing and roster creation in console games is standard with every other sports game. Where is the option to edit the PGA pros in the game, and to create other PGA custom golfers and add them to your own custom Tour roster? Or how about another option that's pretty much standard in other sports games: allow the user to create their own custom season, including which courses to play, along with setting the weather conditions, pin placement, etc. Why isn't that in the game?

As I said, it's all about console gaming now. Meaning the game is designed and geared towards online players who simply want to compete in online tourneys, and who have little interest in the sort of options I'm speaking of. That's fine and all, and I accept it. But it is what it is, and until they decide to throw us offline/customization fans a bone or two, I won't be purchasing this game. (Having too much fun with my custom season in TW 06 anyway, ha!)

[pietasterp]

Quote: Originally Posted by peigone

I recall going into an electronics store and watching one of the store's salespeople playing a golf game that was being shown on their wall of televisions. At first I thought it was a TV broadcast of a live PGA tournament. It was photo-realistic, and the commentary and applause sounded like a live broadcast crew and gallery. (Never did find out what that game was BTW.)

Was that a Babbages or Electronics Boutique, by any chance? I seem to remember walking into one of the old gamestores (before evil empire Gamestop took them all over...) and having a similar experience, but I also never figured out what game it was they were showing...maybe something for the 3DO.

Quote: Originally Posted by peigone

That's the gaming era we're in now. Basically, if young people aren't interested, then developers have little or no motivation to add it to the game. And young people would not think twice about the fact that when they hit a ball 40 yards left of the fairway, that the ball is magically respawned back on the fairway with a stroke penalty. If anything, that's what they want in a game because it speeds things up and keeps it simple. It's also why past features like course creation tools were removed, why the ability to edit and add PGA pros was removed, why the ability to create your own custom season was removed, etc. and so forth. I also be believe it's why photo-realism has never been introduced into this series. The look of the game, and the bright color palettes they use, have been kept cartoon-like for the same reasons -- it all appeals to young people.

It all goes back to the hegemony of EA being the dominant sports game publisher...there used to be an option between Links, PGA Championship Golf, Jack Nickaluas golf, PGA Tour Golf (Tiger Woods' predecessor, that was actually a decent sim golf game), and others - but when EA became the sole player, the writing was on the wall. I said back in '99 when the first PGA-exclusive license newly-branded EA Tiger Woods game came out (I may be off by a year or so on the date) and it had lightning strikes on drives and all this other nonsense, that it was going to spell the beginning of the end for golf games. Not sure I was wrong about that one...

Quote: Originally Posted by DivotMaker

While one PC Golf game could be considered "photo-realistic", it was hampered by a 2D non-dynamic nor 3D environment which is certainly easier to render than what is rendered in TW12...by a LARGE MARGIN. Playing Links 2003 was like playing in a vacuum postcard environment, IMO. Zero animation of anything on the course other than the golfer, ball, and flag. EVERYTHING in TW12 is animated and the environments are dynamic with changing weather and lighting that changes as the day progresses. Huge difference from Links 2003....

No doubt it's harder with polys...but is it really not possible to approach that level of detail, now almost a decade out from the last generation of PC golf games? I'm not disagreeing with you per se, but I'm wondering if it really is the case that it's not possible or that it just hasn't been attempted.

Quote: Originally Posted by DivotMaker

Consoles have NEVER had a true course architect for various reasons, but the biggest reasons are: 1) Lack of harddrive for ALL consoles (360 is not standard, Wii has none) 2) No real way for most users to use a mouse and keyboard to design courses. No way could you design a course with a gamepad with any sort of quality. 3) The software tools to create courses (3D programs and tools) are extremely expensive and cumbersome for most users to use effectively. There are various other reasons, but those are the biggest.

All good points...particularly the interface issues. But course creators used to be a traditional part of a good number of PC golf games...didn't Sierra's PGA Championship game from early 2000's have a course-creator that used polys (3d) and was actually really robust? I thought a late-edition Jack Nicklaus had a similar tool as well (also 3d). And honestly, I'm not sure Tiger looks that much better than some of those later PC poly-based games. So I'm not totally convinced the lack of a course creator (at least for PC-versions) is based on the lack of tech or ease of use (people can do amazing things with any semi-intelligently designed creation system...just surf the 'net for user-created PGA Championship or Jack Nicklaus courses).