Madden NFL Designers Podcast #4 w/ Special Guest, Pasta Padre Available Now

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I don't think the present developers disagree with you, do you? I really don't think it is that cut and dry what sim in the NFL is to some people. If you went out and asked 10 different people, you would get 10 different answers.

Hey Road, this is an interesting point you make here. The reason being that it is a football game we are discussing. At what point did this game stray from what it is to something it isn't? The problem here is that EA wants to capitalize on this product to make the most money it can (which is totally fair), but by doing so, they have tried to make Madden a "jack of all trades, master of none." Madden is supposed to be an NFL football simulation. It is not an arcade game, it is not a role playing game, it is not an adventure game. It's football. If you look at the sports games at the top of the heap right now (NBA 2k, MLB the Show). Those are the two best sports games out there. They focus on what they do best. Authentic representation of the sport they are emulating. Period. those games do not worry about catering to certain groups. Being a true simulation game and REALLY representing what we see on Sunday will still ALWAYS attract the "casual" crowd. If they want to play football, they will buy it. It's that simple.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Reejer

Pure and complete authenticity is not realistically attainable in a game, EX: How would you like to have Sullivan hike the ball screwy each time you are in the shotgun, or if your team turned the ball over constantly. or if your HB slipped around in the snow (like a figure skater). Yes it would be more realistic, but where do we draw the line between fun and realistic. It would be nice if these situations happened every once and a while, and if weather had an affect on gameplay, but if they happened on a regular (realistic) basis it could get frustrating.

I'm not talking about bad snaps or slipping. I'm talking about things that happen all the time. Some things are just football.

Edge/speed rushing. Players like Dwight Freeney are not represented in the game because there is no AI or animation for what Freeney does on 8 out of 10 pass plays.

Special teams. Everything from double teaming the gunners to middle blocks are absent.

Tiered defensive play calling. In the NFL Def Coords create schemes. They put together stunts, blitzes & coverages. There are no defensive "plays" like there are in Madden, which are extremely limiting unless you learned about football through Madden.

Gap/contain assignments, which is the foundation of run defense is not in Madden.

Engaged player mobility. Not many folks respond when I talk about this but Madden's engaged players can't move until someone wins. IRL, engaged players flow towards the ball. Blockers can't stop a defender from moving laterally without holding, except in Madden. And it kills the spacing & timing on outside runs, and it doesn't allow for the speed rushing I mentioned above.

I'll stop so I don't create another wish list, but understand I could cover an entire page with football essentials absent from Madden. Slips, bad snaps, ect are things that can wait. I'm talking about football fundamentals.

Quote: Originally Posted by Reejer

I understand that authenticity is important to you, but if you are able to customize the game you can produce your own sense of authenticity. EX-1: If you think that Donny didn't rate a player authentically, then with customization, you the player can change it. EX-2: If you think that there aren't enough penalties being called, a slider can fix it for you. EX-3: If you don't think that the players are moving at the correct speed, a slider can fix that too.

I'm much more concerned about how ratings, penalties & speed are interpreted than I am about them being "correct".

Quote: Originally Posted by Reejer

Even though I do think that there are some bugs, and other aspects that make Madden less desireable than it's predecessors. I do think that Madden has always strived to make the most authentic NFL product that they can, and have tried to keep that as their mantra. And I do believe that the Dev. team has successfully made the Madden series as close to authentic as they can.

Agreed!

Quote: Originally Posted by Reejer

Yes I understand that there is stil room for improvement, EX: IR, PS, FA, trade logic, progression/regression, penalties, challenges, physics, and depth. But from the sounds of it, they are working to fix alot of these disfunctional items.

With the exception of physics, which is a very big deal IMO, I could wait on these.

[Reejer]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I'm talking about football fundamentals.

Gotcha. Thanks for not getting pissy with my post. And thanks for just explaining what you find disfunctional in Madden. I agree 100% with each of your thoughts. It's funny, I always knew that there was something lacking in special teams (kick coverage), but I never looked to see what was wrong (good job).

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I'm much more concerned about how ratings, penalties & speed are interpreted than I am about them being "correct".

I totally agree with you on this one. I have reverted to playing M-06' (PS2), because ratings actually had an effect on gameplay.

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

With the exception of physics, which is a very big deal IMO, I could wait on these.

I agree that physics would create an actual fix to alot of the games problems (like your edge/speed rushing example, the engaged player mobility, possibly the gap/contain assignments, and many more). But in addition to physics, I don't know how long I can wait for a functional IR, PS, a proper progression/regression system, a deep Franchise Mode, and I know I will get a ration of grief about this, but I would like to see a great immersive Superstar Mode too.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Reejer

I agree that physics would create an actual fix to alot of the games problems

I think it bares being said: Physics certainly could fix a lot of the game's problems, but it's as likely to cause far more if not done well. So far there have been two major sports games to incorporate RTP in a meaningful way; one was completely built around it to the exclusion of a complete football game, the other was done to a very modest degree to ensure problems could be handled without destroying the game.

Madden would have to take the 2nd approach... bringing in physics one year at a time. Personally, I think they're holding off until other things (such as AI and locomotion) are done right, and I absolutely believe this is the way to go. Great physics with terrible AI (see Run Blocking for M10 vs. Run Blocking for M11) is just as problematic as the other way around.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I think it bares being said: Physics certainly could fix a lot of the game's problems, but it's as likely to cause far more if not done well. So far there have been two major sports games to incorporate RTP in a meaningful way; one was completely built around it to the exclusion of a complete football game, the other was done to a very modest degree to ensure problems could be handled without destroying the game. Madden would have to take the 2nd approach... bringing in physics one year at a time. Personally, I think they're holding off until other things (such as AI and locomotion) are done right, and I absolutely believe this is the way to go. Great physics with terrible AI (see Run Blocking for M10 vs. Run Blocking for M11) is just as problematic as the other way around.

I'd have to see the improved version of course, but I'm guessing I'd be OK with an animation/ratings driven physics system. I just need it to LOOK good and realistic regarding ratings, size, angles, ect. I wonder which would be more work though, getting the current system to look realistic or incorporating "true" physics.

And I hope they're holding off until they get AI & locomotion/animations right. IMO, those are the most important areas of the game. From running to player interaction to how & what players react to just doesn't look like football yet. I have faith though. I just think it's a matter of time. It's the amount of time that's kicking my ***.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Reejer

Gotcha. Thanks for not getting pissy with my post.

Never that. I'm here because I love video game football. I grew up on Madden. I enjoy conversing with folks that share the same passion. I just want Madden to reach the level of some other sports video games I like so that I can enjoy it as much or more than I did in the past.

[Reejer]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I think it bares being said: Physics certainly could fix a lot of the game's problems, but it's as likely to cause far more if not done well. So far there have been two major sports games to incorporate RTP in a meaningful way; (A) one was completely built around it to the exclusion of a complete football game, (B) the other was done to a very modest degree to ensure problems could be handled without destroying the game.

Which ones; (A) Backbreaker and (B) NHL 11'? I agree with you that if they do it in incremental steps, it should not become a detriment to gameplay.

[Reejer]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Never that. I'm here because I love video game football. I grew up on Madden. I enjoy conversing with folks that share the same passion. I just want Madden to reach the level of some other sports video games I like so that I can enjoy it as much or more than I did in the past.

Same here. I'm just used to some of the folks on the EA boards, and here that take things personally (even things that aren't intended to be inflammatory) and attack back. It is refreshing to have a great exchange of ideas with someone, and I thank you for that.