Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Yes osmosis was a joke. Sarcasm would be a more apt description though lol. You are missing the point. All TLC, and I are saying, is that competition DOES NOT GUARANTEE a better Madden. That's it. And there are people who post on here who think that if they had comp that Madden would be better GUARANTEED. That is just wrong. You can bring up track record, or the past all you want, that proves nothing. Past performance is not indicative of future results. I don't want to argue, because there is no reason to. This should be obvious. Competition does not guarantee a better game. Period. The people who think it does are wrong. If you aren't one of those people, then you are ahead of the curve. If you are one of those people... stop thinking that way lol. That's all.

Where is the word guarantee coming into play?

I go back to a few post by me. I would think optimism is a better word then guarantee.

I haven't seen anyone state that bringing in competition guarantees anything.

I just don't think it's right to curb people's enthusiasm or optimism that there could be competition down the road. I don't think it's right to tell people they are wrong in their thinking, either. If that starts happening, people will be afraid to post their opinions, which is all it is.

I see people saying on here, competition will make the game better, but I don't think those people are guaranteeing anything. Anything can happen.

Optimism/enthusiasm is different than guaranteeing.

You know I'm a stats person. If Prince Fielder avg's 50 hr's per yr during the last 5 yrs, it would be well within my bounds to be optimistic that Fielder will hit near 50 hr's the next season. I'm not guaranteeing it, he could tank it and hit 35 the next year.

Good post, bearschicago, I agre.

[jbrew2411]

No one can say they know Madden would be better with competition. On the other hand we all know competition pushes for the best out of people. I coach high school kids. If I walk up to my QB and tell him not to worry he will be the starter next year no matter what he does then I can't think he is going to work hard during the spring and summer to improve. Why would he? The thing is when there is another company making a game that they have to compete for sales then they are forced to put out the best product they can or risk lossing sales/money.
It's easy to see that sales are down for Madden 11 due to it being a repackage of Madden 10. I know I didn't buy Madden 11 for that reason. Only the second time I didn't buy a Madden since 95 (08 was the other time). Gamers have become smarter. We demand better to justify the price tag. When they make little change then why buy a game. Updated roster is not worth the money. I will wait and see if Madden 12 improves the franchise mode. If there is not improvement then I will stay away again.

[dxhowe2k]

If I'm not mistaken, the NFL license is up for grabs next year. So, whether 2K Sports, EA, or Natural Motion comes up with a new football game, this may be the best year in SIM Football gaming. Look for Madden to be forced on major changes. The pressure will be on 2KSports because they've sat on the sidelines for years. And Natural Motion's Backbreaker II, who know's what they have up their sleeves with unscripted tackling.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Where is the word guarantee coming into play? I go back to a few post by me. I would think optimism is a better word then guarantee. I haven't seen anyone state that bringing in competition guarantees anything. I just don't think it's right to curb people's enthusiasm or optimism that there could be competition down the road. I don't think it's right to tell people they are wrong in their thinking, either. If that starts happening, people will be afraid to post their opinions, which is all it is. I see people saying on here, competition will make the game better, but I don't think those people are guaranteeing anything. Anything can happen. Optimism/enthusiasm is different than guaranteeing. You know I'm a stats person. If Prince Fielder avg's 50 hr's per yr during the last 5 yrs, it would be well within my bounds to be optimistic that Fielder will hit near 50 hr's the next season. I'm not guaranteeing it, he could tank it and hit 35 the next year. Good post, bearschicago, I agre.

Roadman. You never said guarantee. My point was never that you did. My one, and only point was, that there are people, not necessarily you, that think that competition guarantees that Madden will be better.

It is those people that TLC was addressing when he made his comment, and that was the point he was making as well. To try and retort that, which you did, by bringing up other games and trying to show him he was wrong for thinking that way, either means that you do think comp guarantees a better Madden, or that you misunderstood what he was trying to say. I tend to think it is the latter. That was the only reason for my post. To try to better explain what his point was, which was unequivocally true, and quite innocuous, and to make you see that you shouldn't be arguing his point, because again, unequivocally true.

To sum up, competition does not guarantee a better game. That's it. It doesn't require anymore exposition than that. It was just a reminder to those that think it does. Doesn't mean, that I mean, you said that it does. Doesn't mean that I don't want comp. Doesn't mean I'm trying to crush anyone's dream of having comp. The statement that comp guarantees nothing, has no hidden meaning. There doesn't need to be a lengthy discussion about it. It is incontrovertibly true and was the only point that tlc was trying to make, to those that think otherwise.

Don't take this post for anything that it is not. It isn't written to try and belittle you or your points, or to be rude in anyway. I am just trying to say that this isn't something that you and tlc, or I for that matter, should be arguing about, because it is really a misunderstanding, and not a difference of opinion, which it seems that you think it is.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by bearschicago

^ Agree that competition doesn't equal a better game. However if Madden did not buy the NFL license and allowed ESPN NFL 2K series to continue, at least this gave consumers options. In the end, isn't that what we all want? To make the customers happy? So if Madden continues to not improve while 2K is constantly the better game, eventually more will buy 2K not EA. IMO this will force EA to make a better game. Or continue to sell less with each new title.

Absolutely, 100% true, but you are attempting to create an argument or discussion, where there really is none, which is what I have been trying to convey.

Comp does not guarantee a better game. You agree with that. There are those that don't. And it is to those that tlc's and my post were aimed at. If you don't fall in that category, then it should really be end of discussion.

There are obviously other benefits of comp, like having choice, and I was never, and would never, dispute that.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Roadman. You never said guarantee. My point was never that you did. My one, and only point was, that there are people, not necessarily you, that think that competition guarantees that Madden will be better. It is those people that TLC was addressing when he made his comment, and that was the point he was making as well. To try and retort that, which you did, by bringing up other games and trying to show him he was wrong for thinking that way, either means that you do think comp guarantees a better Madden, or that you misunderstood what he was trying to say. I tend to think it is the latter. That was the only reason for my post. To try to better explain what his point was, which was unequivocally true, and quite innocuous, and to make you see that you shouldn't be arguing his point, because again, unequivocally true. To sum up, competition does not guarantee a better game. That's it. It doesn't require anymore exposition than that. It was just a reminder to those that think it does. Doesn't mean you said that. Doesn't mean that I don't want comp. Doesn't mean I'm trying to crush anyone's dream of having comp. The statement that comp guarantees nothing, has no hidden meaning. There doesn't need to be a lengthy discussion about it. It is incontrovertibly true and the only point that tlc was trying to make, to those that think otherwise. Don't take this post for anything that it is not. It isn't written to try and belittle you or your points, or to be rude in anyway. I am just trying to say that this isn't something that you and tlc, or I for that matter, should be arguing about, because it is really a misunderstanding, and not a difference of opinion, which it seems that you think it is.

I got it from the beginning.

I was only trying to show the other POV, not prove anyone wrong. If you think that on a message board of communication, I can't help in that area.

My bottom line is that I haven't seen anyone at OS post the word guarantee that Madden would be better with competition. I don't know where that word came form. Guarantee is too strong of a word. I'm speaking for other posters, not myself, when I feel that they feel there is optimism/enthusiasm for competition.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone, either.

This will be my last post on this topic. The topic doesn't appear to be on the same page for some people that are responding. I'll let a sleeping dog lie.

Edit- Lkg over the old post from last night and this morning, I know see where the word guarantee came from. I like TLC's, not a given terminology better.

As I stated before, not sure if posters that feel the Madden would be better with competition feel like it's a given. I would hope posters would feel optimistic about competition, and not think it's a given. I don't know and neither does anyone else, know, how people feel writing on a message board.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I got it from the beginning. I was only trying to show the other POV, not prove anyone wrong. If you think that on a message board of communication, I can't help in that area. My bottom line is that I haven't seen anyone at OS post the word guarantee that Madden would be better with competition. I don't know where that word came form. Guarantee is too strong of a word. I'm speaking for other posters, not myself, when I feel that they feel there is optimism/enthusiasm for competition. I'm not trying to belittle anyone, either. This will be my last post on this topic. The topic doesn't appear to be on the same page for some people that are responding. I'll let a sleeping dog lie.

I can't say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I have seen people use the word guarantee either. That is beside the point though.

It is beside the point, because I HAVE seen, people say in answer to the question of "what would make Madden better", and them answer competition. I HAVE seen people say that lack of competition is THE biggest reason why they think Madden is not a good game. I HAVE seen people say that the only way to have a good Madden, is to bring back competition. How else can you take those statements, other than to mean that they think that if there was competition, that Madden would magically be better? They don't have to specifically use the word guarantee. Their position could not be clearer, even if they did.

And there is nothing wrong with optimism, but there is also nothing wrong with cautioning against, or tempering enthusiasm, to a realistic level. And if anyone's optimism includes thinking that all Madden needs is comp, then yes, that is an unrealistic expectation. Competition MAY help, but it very well MAY NOT. Not saying anything more than that.

It's fine to give the other POV, but on this one single statement, "competition does not guarantee a better Madden", there is no other POV. That is a statement of fact and should be treated as such. Facts don't have POVs. Opinions do. If you think that there is another POV to that statement, then that adds more credence to my belief that this is a misunderstanding.

But it should not be an argument.

[King_B_Mack]

What's being lost in this whole argument is the fact that we have seen Madden WITH competition and the series was at it's best, now without it's at it's worst. Now does that mean that competition is going to automatically make the game better? Not immediately, but it will. Whether anyone likes to believe it or not, EA Sports is a company full of talent and the developers of the Madden games are good at they're jobs, you don't get where they are without being that. That said it's not like they're incapable of making a good game because we've seen it done before.

It's as close to a guarantee as you can get that Madden would improve with competition because Madden is and always will be EA's cash cow and biggest property. All the resources will always go to that series first over any other and if Madden is truly in danger of falling out of the top football game spot EA will do what it takes to keep it on top. If Madden was always the only game in town then arguing that competition wouldn't make it better would make sense because we have no history to draw from for that genre, however we've seen Madden when it's got other NFL games breathing down it's neck and we got the best of the series during that time. Using the NBA doesn't count for anything because Live has never been EA's baby, it's never been THE game at the company, Madden, NHL, MVP and Fifa have always been EA's priority. Live suffered as long as it did because EA didn't give a crap about the franchise as long as Madden, NHL, etc. flourished.

Bottomline it's not a slam dunk that competition will make the game better, however anyone saying that it will has more ground to stand on than anyone trying to argue otherwise cause two of the best NFL football games of all time are generally considered to be NFL 2K5 and Madden 2005.