Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Forget about MVP, then. So, isn't FIFA and NHL on "next gen?" Those 2 games have innovated with competition on next gen. Check out the forums on these games if you are not familiar with them. Over the last few years, they've made major improvements with competition. That's the track record I'm going by. I think you are focusing too much on the basketball track record.

I personally don't believe the competition has any bearing on what EA does with its' games. Granted, I haven't played their NHL or FIFA games but I don't see how competition can be credited with pushing EA to make these games better. It seems to me that EA just does what they want with their sports titles and sometimes that works and other times it doesn't. All that is just my opinion though.

Now for the facts. You can't cherry pick a track record just for the good or bad alone, you have to look at the whole record. With some sports games that EA has had competition in, EA has produced some good games while some others have not been that good. That's a fact, so competition for Madden does not mean the game will improve, it MIGHT or it MIGHT NOT. If you noticed my first post about this I said "not necessarily". Once again, Im not saying it can't happen but based on EA's track record with competition, it is not a given like I think some are suggesting/thinking.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

I personally don't believe the competition has any bearing on what EA does with its' games. Granted, I haven't played their NHL or FIFA games but I don't see how competition can be credited with pushing EA to make these games better. It seems to me that EA just does what they want with their sports titles and sometimes that works and other times it doesn't. All that is just my opinion though. Now for the facts. You can't cherry pick a track record just for the good or bad alone, you have to look at the whole record. With some sports games that EA has had competition in, EA has produced some good games while some others have not been that good. That's a fact, so competition for Madden does not mean the game will improve, it MIGHT or it MIGHT NOT. If you noticed my first post about this I said "not necessarily". Once again, Im not saying it can't happen but based on EA's track record with competition, it is not a given like I think some are suggesting/thinking.

And I was acknowledging that EA does innovate in other sports games with competition. I think in the last paragraph you agreed with that.(didn't see that in other posts because of your exp. w/NBA Live)

As far as your last sentence, of course, that is a wait and see situation. Time will tell.

I feel the overall feeling is that competition breeds better yearly sports games. It might not be true for NBA Live, but it was true when Madden and other football games were competing, plus with FIFA and NHL thrown in, there is a reason for optimism in this area.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

And I was acknowledging that EA does innovate in other sports games with competition. I think in the last paragraph you agreed with that.(didn't see that in other posts because of your exp. w/NBA Live) As far as your last sentence, of course, that is a wait and see situation. Time will tell. I feel the overall feeling is that competition breeds better yearly sports games. It might not be true for NBA Live, but it was true when Madden and other football games were competing, plus with FIFA and NHL thrown in, there is a reason for optimism in this area.

Yeah they have innovated with competition but I don't think it is BECAUSE of competition. EA has "innovated" next-gen Madden without competition but that hasnt translated all that well into making it a better game, IMO. When I think of competition making something better, I think of one game doing something better one year and then the other game trying to outdo them in that area next year. Like if Game A had a better presentation than Game B, the next year Game B works hard to make their presentation better than Game A. However, that's not what EA does with its' sport titles. If a competitors game does something better, EA just tries to add something totally different to their game. That doesn't make much sense to me when we are talking about sports titles, both games are supposed to be "simulating" the actual sport. If Game A has a good tackling animations, Game B should strive for a better tackling animations, not "innovate" a new tackling system that's incomplete and looks WORSE.

EA "innovates" Madden and NHL without competition, when faced with competition, EA might just innovate more but that doesn't mean Madden will be better. We are both seeing the same things but have vastly different interpretations of what's happening and that's cool.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

Yeah they have innovated with competition but I don't think it is BECAUSE of competition. EA has "innovated" next-gen Madden without competition but that hasnt translated all that well into making it a better game, IMO. When I think of competition making something better, I think of one game doing something better one year and then the other game trying to outdo them in that area next year. Like if Game A had a better presentation than Game B, the next year Game B works hard to make their presentation better than Game A. However, that's not what EA does with its' sport titles. If a competitors game does something better, EA just tries to add something totally different to their game. That doesn't make much sense to me when we are talking about sports titles, both games are supposed to be "simulating" the actual sport. If Game A has a good tackling animations, Game B should strive for a better tackling animations, not "innovate" a new tackling system that's incomplete and looks WORSE. EA "innovates" Madden and NHL without competition, when faced with competition, EA might just innovate more but that doesn't mean Madden will be better. We are both seeing the same things but have vastly different interpretations of what's happening and that's cool.

Yeah, your right, it's cool that we have different interpretations.

You are looking at Madden and Live, I'm trying to bring NHL and FIFA into the picture. It's been very competitive with the NHL series and FIFA over the past 5 years on the consoles. In fact, FIFA's competitor, PES's Director said PES has to turn up the heat to become more competitive because FIFA has done that very thing.

We are both right, just coming at different directions.

I can't dismiss what Madden and Live have produced , just like you can't dismiss what NHL and FIFA have accomplished.

[Only1LT]

I see what TLC is saying, and I agree. There ARE people on here that think that if Madden had comp, that it would magically be better, by, I don't know... osmosis or something.

Whether you believe that EA/Tiburon sits on their laurels or not, when there is no comp, the fact remains, that regardless of whether there is comp or not, Madden does NOT HAVE to improve. Even if you believe that competition will "force" Madden to put more effort into their game, that means nothing. So what if they do put more effort into the game? Who is to say that that "effort" will yield anything remotely better? You might give them an 'E' for effort, but they could still make an 'F' of a game.

If you can't make a good game, you can't make a good game. I could play pick up games with Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Melo, and any other star you want to name. Doesn't mean I'll ever be on their level (except in my mind lol).

Now before a mod comes to say stop bashing the devs, I'm not. I'm speaking hypothetically. And hypothetically speaking, if you are incapable of making a good game, no amount of comp (unless you steal their work or something lol) will change that.

That's all TLC is saying, and he is absolutely right. Theoretically speaking that is lol.

So all those that think that comp HAS to make Madden better, that is just pie in the sky capitalism talking, but it isn't based on anything other than that.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

I see what TLC is saying, and I agree. There ARE people on here that think that if Madden had comp, that it would magically be better, by, I don't know... osmosis or something. Whether you believe that EA/Tiburon sits on their laurels or not, when there is no comp, the fact remains, that regardless of whether there is comp or not, Madden does NOT HAVE to improve. Even if you believe that competition will "force" Madden to put more effort into their game, that means nothing. So what if they do put more effort into the game? Who is to say that that "effort" will yield anything remotely better? You might give them an 'E' for effort, but they could still make an 'F' of a game. If you can't make a good game, you can't make a good game. I could play pick up games with Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Melo, and any other star you want to name. Doesn't mean I'll ever be on their level (except in my mind lol). Now before a mod comes to say stop bashing the devs, I'm not. I'm speaking hypothetically. And hypothetically speaking, if you are incapable of making a good game, no amount of comp (unless you steal their work or something lol) will change that. That's all TLC is saying, and he is absolutely right. Theoretically speaking that is lol. So all those that think that comp HAS to make Madden better, that is just pie in the sky capitalism talking, but it isn't based on anything other than that.

Wow, osmosis or were you joking?

I don't agree with your making a bad game they will continue to make a bad game analogy, either. Off the bat, I don't know if Madden will improve (that's subjective to everyone) with competition or not.

However, you can't dismiss it based on past history of some EA sports games.(not all obviously)

I don't care if Triple Play was on LG or LLG, they still took that arcade game and turned into a very competitive MVP game. FIFA and NHL have improved dramatically with competition.

I'm not in the camp that feels EA will put more effort into making a better game, either, but I'm not dismissing any or all possibilities.

I'm a person that goes by track history, good and bad. In this case, it's possible both ways.

That's all that Roadman is saying, theoretically speaking.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Wow, osmosis or were you joking? I don't agree with your making a bad game they will continue to make a bad game analogy, either. Off the bat, I don't know if Madden will improve (that's subjective to everyone) with competition or not. However, you can't dismiss it based on past history of some EA sports games.(not all obviously) I don't care if Triple Play was on LG or LLG, they still took that arcade game and turned into a very competitive MVP game. FIFA and NHL have improved dramatically with competition. I'm not in the camp that feels EA will put more effort into making a better game, either, but I'm not dismissing any or all possibilities. I'm a person that goes by track history, good and bad. In this case, it's possible both ways. That's all that Roadman is saying, theoretically speaking.

Yes osmosis was a joke. Sarcasm would be a more apt description though lol.

You are missing the point. All TLC, and I are saying, is that competition DOES NOT GUARANTEE a better Madden. That's it. And there are people who post on here who think that if they had comp that Madden would be better GUARANTEED. That is just wrong.

You can bring up track record, or the past all you want, that proves nothing. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

I don't want to argue, because there is no reason to. This should be obvious. Competition does not guarantee a better game. Period. The people who think it does are wrong. If you aren't one of those people, then you are ahead of the curve. If you are one of those people... stop thinking that way lol.

That's all.

[bearschicago]

^ Agree that competition doesn't equal a better game. However if Madden did not buy the NFL license and allowed ESPN NFL 2K series to continue, at least this gave consumers options. In the end, isn't that what we all want? To make the customers happy?

So if Madden continues to not improve while 2K is constantly the better game, eventually more will buy 2K not EA. IMO this will force EA to make a better game. Or continue to sell less with each new title.