NBA Elite 11 Interview with Creative Director David Littman

[bltzkrieg666]

Quote: Originally Posted by sroz39

I'm looking forward to this game. A lot. I have bought every 2K basketball game since it's inception and haven't bought Live since Live 2005. I was cautiously optimistic about Live 10 and it turned out to be pretty good, probably more fun than 2K10 in many respects. Didn't buy it though. I think what they are trying to do with this game is EXACTLY what basketball needs. The team working on the 2K series has become so reliant on adding animations in recent years that they've forgotten what it's all about and that's player control. In 2K9 and 2K10, the engine is so animation driven that to move the player I'm controlling with any consistency is a nightmare. Sometimes, when I push the left stick all the way, my guy runs. Other times, he side-shuffles slowly. Trying to make a subtle move was next to impossible because it seemed like the game was guessing what you meant to do with the controller and animate according to some under-the-hood formula. Live 10 was fantastic when it came to player control. Where I wanted to move was where I went, for the most part. The problem Live ran into last year is when the two-man canned animations took over. It was awful at times. Seems like these kinds of instances is exactly what they are trying to eliminate. And I say good on them. In a game like basketball, hockey and football, the game almost has to be physics driven. Canned animations just won't cut it. It's why the NHL series is going that way and why this series is going that way. Eventually, you've added so many animations to your game that inevitably, the game will pick the wrong one and something will look off. It happens in almost every game we play (other than Backbreaker) and kudos to EA for realizing this. They probably understood they've hit the plateau with their respective games' engines and needed to move on with their evolution from an animations-driven (last-gen) engine to a physics-driven one. As for the player control argument, being a big time NHL player, I can tell you that even though they give you almost full control of what happens in the game, I can't take the Leafs and beat the Penguins more than 2 out of 10 times (with the right difficulty level). So yeah, everything's in my control but it doesn't allow me to turn a terrible player into a great one. What it does allow to happen is, every now and then, a fringe player will make a terrific play. Which is no different than what you guys are arguing about here. Though Rondo will not consistently hit the 3, he CAN and at times, it will happen in a very important part of the game. Sports are like that, it's why we watch them. For those moments. But if the Elite game is anything like the NHL series, ratings will still matter a great deal, regardless of how good you are on the sticks.

You know "FUN". You never hear anyone mention that word anymore when playing sports games. Everybody just wants to tear the games apart and over analyze every aspect of it. I too thought Live 10 was just plain more fun than 2k. The game was fast, fluid, and easy to pick up and play. The online was solid and the presentation and graphics were quite good.

I never cared about flashy animations or overly complex controls. I prefer the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) approach to games.

[loadleft]

Quote: Originally Posted by bltzkrieg666

Look, we are playing a video game and video games are supposed to be about YOUR skill and not the AI skill. If the game performs like its real life counterparts then the game becomes scripted and contrived. If Kobe shoots 45% from the field then the game is going to construct that and quite frankly that is BS. Players have great games, and bad games. and when you base a game on mathmatical equations your just going to get the averages. I want my skill to shine in a game and not the AI's. Every other sports game is based on user skill so why do you want the AI to play the game for you. If you want the AI to decide every aspect of this game for you then you might as well just put it on CPU vs CPU and just sit back and watch the games because you ain't playing it. You can't tell me that we all haven't pulled our hair out at how rediculous the AI is at times in determining when a shot falls or not. I am a Live 10 player and I have wanted to break my controller so many times over routine shots and/or easy put backs that miss the mark. At least in elite this year those misses will be of my own doing and I am perfectly satisfied with that. Video games are supposed to showcase the users abilities and not the statisticians.

All I can say is try rereading my post to see if you can get a better understanding of what I said because I said nothing about having the AI play for me. My entire post was about simulating NBA basketball, which is what I though most users at OS wanted. All kinds of ways to have fun so being accurate is not in opposition to that.

[TUSS11]

Quote: Originally Posted by loadleft

All I can say is try rereading my post to see if you can get a better understanding of what I said because I said nothing about having the AI play for me. My entire post was about simulating NBA basketball, which is what I though most users at OS wanted. All kinds of ways to have fun so being accurate is not in opposition to that.

Quote: Originally Posted by loadleft

Since I've somewhat egged this discussion on let me defend and/or clarify my position. To me, rEAnimator, the real debate is about what are you simulating. There's one crowd that wants the game to simulate true to life NBA basketball (I am in this crowd). This group doesn't want the user to be able to give the players ability they don't posses in real life. So it's like saying what would it take for the Clippers to win the ring this year. The way the games sounds like it is setup the answer is just be good at manipulating the sticks. There sounds like there's is little to no benefit to seeking better players, sure the shot will be easier with a better player, but if I practice the release with the lesser player until I got it down pat then that makes that shot easier too. Now, I've removed the real life requirements to making a better team and substituted something that only exist in the video game world. For guys on my side of the aisle that isn't sim! The other group is saying they want user skill to be the ultimate determining factor. Sure, I agree that would make a really good video game, but not so much a simulation of reality. I can't see how this is hard to understand, now you may decide that you don't want a true sim and that's understandable and I can at least respect that.

You want a video game that's a true simulation of NBA basketball. And you say that user skill being the ultimate determining factor is not sim. So you don't want user skill to be the deciding factor. Correct? Which means you want the team's or individual players' limitations being the deciding factor.

If that's the case, let's consider a late game situation. You're inbounding the ball, down by 1 with 5 seconds left. You pass it into your best scorer (who is normally inconsistent but has made his last 3 shots). You call for an on-ball screen and come off the screen wide open. So you pull up for the game winning jumper but this time the game considers the player's real life consistency (or lack thereof) combined with the fact that he's hit his last 3 shots, and calculates that the result that's most true to life is a miss. So you miss the shot and lose the game. How would that make you feel, knowing that you're skill wasn't the deciding factor?

[Teebone21]

oh no the ultimate EA fanboy bltzkrieg666 is here lol.Please dude dont start arguments here

[TUSS11]

Quote: Originally Posted by Teebone21

oh no the ultimate EA fanboy bltzkrieg666 is here lol.Please dude dont start arguments here

Fanboy? He's articulating a valid point of view with coherent sentences and this is all you can manage to post? Hypocrisy.

[loadleft]

Quote: Originally Posted by TUSS11

You want a video game that's a true simulation of NBA basketball. And you say that user skill being the ultimate determining factor is not sim. So you don't want user skill to be the deciding factor. Correct? Which means you want the team's or individual players' limitations being the deciding factor. If that's the case, let's consider a late game situation. You're inbounding the ball, down by 1 with 5 seconds left. You pass it into your best scorer (who is normally inconsistent but has made his last 3 shots). You call for an on-ball screen and come off the screen wide open. So you pull up for the game winning jumper but this time the game considers the player's real life consistency (or lack thereof) combined with the fact that he's hit his last 3 shots, and calculates that the result that's most true to life is a miss. So you miss the shot and lose the game. How would that make you feel, knowing that you're skill wasn't the deciding factor?

1st to answer your question, I'd want the player's ratings, game situation, defense, and proximity along with the INFLUENCE of my stick skills to decide the shot success but not allow my stick skill to over ride all those other factors. On the flipside how would you feel if I master big baby's release and so when you wisely force the ball out of Peirce Allen and KG's hand I win the game w/nothing but bottoms from 23 ft w/Davis, then proceed to hit other key baskets w/him in like fashion in the rematch? For me that's no good.

I'd rather use my real life knowledge of a player's abilities to know that I can leave a certain player open on certain shots to focus on the higher percentage players. With a game that says anybody can hit anything if the release is right, my knowledge goes out the window. I don't have a clue who you've mastered and who you haven't. That's not even my real concern, my real concern is that if a player can't really hit that shot IRL I don't want to see it in the game. I would think a cheeser's dream is to learn to shoot with someone who shouldn't be able to and then pummel the competition w/him, kinda like the guy shooting 3's w/Kobe in 23's videos.

FOR ME, I am interested in a simulation that gives me control of the real life factors to see if I can manipulate them in to a better outcome. Again, that's me, if no one else wants that fine, I can keep my money.

[TUSS11]

Quote: Originally Posted by loadleft

1st to answer your question, I'd want the player's ratings, game situation, defense, and proximity along with the INFLUENCE of my stick skills to decide the shot success but not allow my stick skill to over ride all those other factors. On the flipside how would you feel if I master big baby's release and so when you wisely force the ball out of Peirce Allen and KG's hand I win the game w/nothing but bottoms from 23 ft w/Davis, then proceed to hit other key baskets w/him in like fashion in the rematch? For me that's no good.

Your understanding of Elite's shot system may be inaccurate. The game takes the player's ratings, game situation, defense, and proximity and calculates how difficult the shot would be then adjusts the sweet spot accordingly.

And regarding Glen Davis hitting a 3 to win the game, his ratings would make it an extremely difficult shot. The developers already said they can make shots nearly impossible to make simply by decreasing the sweetspot. And if you recall, Big Baby hit that game winning shot against the Magic in the second round of the 2009 play-offs. Was that not a key shot?

Quote: Originally Posted by loadleft

I'd rather use my real life knowledge of a player's abilities to know that I can leave a certain player open on certain shots to focus on the higher percentage players. With a game that says anybody can hit anything if the release is right, my knowledge goes out the window. I don't have a clue who you've mastered and who you haven't. That's not even my real concern, my real concern is that if a player can't really hit that shot IRL I don't want to see it in the game. I would think a cheeser's dream is to learn to shoot with someone who shouldn't be able to and then pummel the competition w/him, kinda like the guy shooting 3's w/Kobe in 23's videos.

Again, the difficult of the shot is determined by ratings, among other factors. They can tune the difficult so that a non-threat in real life is a non-threat in the game. I wouldn't look to far into those videos because they were playing on Pro, the second easiest difficulty.

[loadleft]

Quote: Originally Posted by TUSS11

Your understanding of Elite's shot system may be inaccurate. The game takes the player's ratings, game situation, defense, and proximity and calculates how difficult the shot would be then adjusts the sweet spot accordingly. And regarding Glen Davis hitting a 3 to win the game, his ratings would make it an extremely difficult shot. The developers already said they can make shots nearly impossible to make simply by decreasing the sweetspot. And if you recall, Big Baby hit that game winning shot against the Magic in the second round of the 2009 play-offs. Was that not a key shot? Again, the difficult of the shot is determined by ratings, among other factors. They can tune the difficult so that a non-threat in real life is a non-threat in the game. I wouldn't look to far into those videos because they were playing on Pro, the second easiest difficulty.

Cool, I hope you're right and I am wrong! I am rooting for this game though I fear it's already doomed.