NBA 2K11 Developer Insight: "Jordan Challenge" - Some Historic Teams Announced

[Grazz1]

Quote: Originally Posted by youvalss

I'd still Pick Hill.

I know. At least we probably share the same views on Rodman.
On a side note it will be such a shame if Hill (and Nash) never get a ring.

[youvalss]

Quote: Originally Posted by Grazz1

I know. At least we probably share the same views on Rodman. On a side note it will be such a shame if Hill (and Nash) never get a ring.

If it hasn't happened yet, I doubt it ever will. Still 2 of my favorite players ever.

[jd@os]

Sorry for getting off the original topic, but I see where both of you guys are coming from.

If Pippen would have played his entire career with Jordan, then I would have picked Hill. I believe I could have built a team around Hill, and I would never have known how good Pip really was...

...but after seeing what he did in the '93-'94 season, I would go with Pippen. If you honestly watched that season and you're not a Houston Rockets fan, chances are you would agree with me, a lot of other sports writers, and SLAM Magazine which STILL talks about it today--Pippen was robbed of the MVP that year. He won the All*Star Game MVP which is nothing, but he was the most VALUABLE player that year (maybe not the best though).

Consider this: the '93 Bulls won 57 games with Jordan; the '94 Bulls won 55 WITHOUT him--but with Pippen as the go-to-guy. That's a TWO game fall off after the G.O.A.T. left. That doesn't mean the Bulls had such a good team as it means Pippen showed how good he was. Even I was shocked and I watched the Bulls since the mid '80s.

For anyone who follows comics, it kinda does remind me of Batman (MJ) and Robin (Pip) in a way lol. People remember seeing them together, but either don't remember or don't know what happen when the sidekick was on his own. Robin became Nightwing--one of the best heroes that people don't know about. And Pippen became the man--something I didn't think he could do.

But all that said...I see where both of you are coming from. I just might have to pick Hill though if I was building my team from scratch.

[Grazz1]

Quote: Originally Posted by jd@os

Sorry for getting off the original topic, but I see where both of you guys are coming from. If Pippen would have played his entire career with Jordan, then I would have picked Hill. I believe I could have built a team around Hill, and I would never have known how good Pip really was... ...but after seeing what he did in the '93-'94 season, I would go with Pippen. If you honestly watched that season and you're not a Houston Rockets fan, chances are you would agree with me, a lot of other sports writers, and SLAM Magazine which STILL talks about it today--Pippen was robbed of the MVP that year. He won the All*Star Game MVP which is nothing, but he was the most VALUABLE player that year (maybe not the best though). Consider this: the '93 Bulls won 57 games with Jordan; the '94 Bulls won 55 WITHOUT him--but with Pippen as the go-to-guy. That's a TWO game fall off after the G.O.A.T. left. That doesn't mean the Bulls had such a good team as it means Pippen showed how good he was. Even I was shocked and I watched the Bulls since the mid '80s. For anyone who follows comics, it kinda does remind me of Batman (MJ) and Robin (Pip) in a way lol. People remember seeing them together, but either don't remember or don't know what happen when the sidekick was on his own. Robin became Nightwing--one of the best heroes that people don't know about. And Pippen became the man--something I didn't think he could do. But all that said...I see where both of you are coming from. I just might have to pick Hill though if I was building my team from scratch.

Totally agree. Pippen was often referenced as one of the top 3 guys in the league around this time, with Jordan and Olajuwon. Shaq would have joined my discussion for top 4.

Not only had MJ left but Cartwright and Paxon got even older, and struggled more. Look at their figures, Cartwrights decline each year.

Bill Simmons said upon Pippen's retirement -

"If the answer is "yes" for No. 1, you probably wonder why Scottie's recent retirement wasn't a bigger story. It's not every day one of the 20 greatest players ever hangs it up, right? .... Does anyone even consider the concept of a point forward? Did any other small forward affect a game in more ways? Was there a more influential defensive player in the past 30 years?

During the 1992 Olympics, Chuck Daly called Scottie his second-best player, describing him as the ultimate "fill-in-the-blanks guy." That's right. Like The Wolf in "Pulp Fiction," Scottie specialized in cleaning up everyone else's mess. When Magic was running amok in the 1991 Finals, Scottie shut him down. When the Knicks were shoving the Bulls around in the 1994 playoffs, Scottie dunked on Ewing, then stood over him defiantly. During the Charles Smith game the year before, Pippen and Horace Grant were the ones stuffing Smith again and again. And when the 1998 Pacers tried to snuff out the ... era, ..... and Pippen crashed the boards and willed themselves time and again to the foul line in Game 7, two smaller guys dominating the paint against a bigger team. They just wanted it more.

...Even better, Tubbs could carry his own episode every now and then, which was precisely what happened in 1994.... Scottie (22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 49% FG) came within a fishy foul on Hubert Davis from taking Chicago to the Finals. How did he not win the MVP award? Pippen detractors conveniently forget that season, just like they ignore the older Scottie leading Portland to within one self-destructive quarter of the 2000 Finals, or gutting through the 1998 playoffs with two herniated disks, in the process jeopardizing his crack at free agency. It's easy to dismiss him as ... 's sidekick. Or to point to the migraine in 1990's Game 7 against the Pistons. Hey, if all else fails, just bring up the quitter thing."

This says it all - www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164627

When you look at Pippens stats in 94 when everyone wanted to kick the Bulls down and brought their game every night Pip's level rose.
I'd argue you could factor in Pippen's % increase in stats for 1994 and apply them to each of his Bulls years in the 90's to see a more realistic reflecion if you were to swap Pippen to a team where he was top dog.

[Grazz1]

I would bet money that deep down nobody loves Pippen for his on court actions than Michael Jordan himself. Yes other players from the 90's Bulls have picked Pippen as their favourite teammate over Jordan but MJ said many times himself in the later finals that Pippen was the team MVP.

Ah, please erase my memory, get me a season ticket to the Bulls and transport me back to the mid 80's!

[jaywv30]

I just think its great we get to play with all these historic teams again. I will be playing this at LEAST as much as with the current rosters. If I was a fan of a team that is not expected to do very good this year I might play EXCLUSIVELY with the classic roster.

[jaywv30]

Quote: Originally Posted by jd@os

Sorry for getting off the original topic, but I see where both of you guys are coming from. If Pippen would have played his entire career with Jordan, then I would have picked Hill. I believe I could have built a team around Hill, and I would never have known how good Pip really was... ...but after seeing what he did in the '93-'94 season, I would go with Pippen. If you honestly watched that season and you're not a Houston Rockets fan, chances are you would agree with me, a lot of other sports writers, and SLAM Magazine which STILL talks about it today--Pippen was robbed of the MVP that year. He won the All*Star Game MVP which is nothing, but he was the most VALUABLE player that year (maybe not the best though). Consider this: the '93 Bulls won 57 games with Jordan; the '94 Bulls won 55 WITHOUT him--but with Pippen as the go-to-guy. That's a TWO game fall off after the G.O.A.T. left. That doesn't mean the Bulls had such a good team as it means Pippen showed how good he was. Even I was shocked and I watched the Bulls since the mid '80s. For anyone who follows comics, it kinda does remind me of Batman (MJ) and Robin (Pip) in a way lol. People remember seeing them together, but either don't remember or don't know what happen when the sidekick was on his own. Robin became Nightwing--one of the best heroes that people don't know about. And Pippen became the man--something I didn't think he could do. But all that said...I see where both of you are coming from. I just might have to pick Hill though if I was building my team from scratch.

And we didn't even talk about the Hue Hollins call....ugh. Had that foul not been called I honestly believe the following happens:

1. Bulls wrap up the Knicks series in Game 6 at Chicago.
2. They beat the Pacers in 5 or 6 in the ECF.
3. They beat the Rockets in 5 or 6 in the finals for the four-peat.
4. Grant probably still leaves and Jordan probably still comes back around the same time...so its questionable if they would have found a power forward to battle Orlando.
5. Questionable whether the Rodman trade would have happened.

[jd@os]

Quote: Originally Posted by jaywv30

And we didn't even talk about the Hue Hollins call....ugh. Had that foul not been called I honestly believe the following happens: 1. Bulls wrap up the Knicks series in Game 6 at Chicago. 2. They beat the Pacers in 5 or 6 in the ECF. 3. They beat the Rockets in 5 or 6 in the finals for the four-peat. 4. Grant probably still leaves and Jordan probably still comes back around the same time...so its questionable if they would have found a power forward to battle Orlando. 5. Questionable whether the Rodman trade would have happened.

I was going to mention that actually. Even though I'm a HUGE UNC fan, I will be the first one to tell you that Scottie Pippen did not--I repeat DID NOT--foul former Tar Heel Hubert Davis; that was a phantom call. So yes: I agree with your #1. As unbelievable as it may sound, that "awesome" Knicks team WOULD HAVE been beaten by a Jordan-less Bulls squad because Pippen was playing on an MVP level that year. Yes, I agree with your #2: you gotta be kidding me if you think the Bulls would have beaten the Knicks but lost to the Pacers; c'mon.

But that's where I think it sadly ends. I think Pip was the MVP that year, but Olajuwon was the best player and that Rockets team was for real. The Bulls would have made it 4 Finals appearances in a row, but the Rockets would have taken the title IMO. However I do think it's laughable when Rockets fans say they would have beaten the Bulls WITH Jordan. That's one of the many differences between Kobe and Michael: Michael NEVER lost in the Finals. NEVER. NE-VER. And he would not have lost that one against Houston either. And I say this while still being a huge Kenny Smith fan; I'm just a realist.