Old Madden Ratings Site Reborn Under New Management

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by at23steelers

Yes it is. I think those leagues just make the matter more complicated, and a year in the NFL gives you more awareness than a year in those leagues anyhow.

Makes sense to me. I suppose I can do it that way and see how it goes.

Thanks for the info on the OVR ratings too.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

This doesn't over-inflate the AWR rating and still takes into account experience and the player's OVR rating. Thoughts?

Ok, I think it's a good idea for having a standard to calculate AWR. However, I dont like the way it allows AWR to decline based on player skill. I think AWR should never go down because a player doesnt lose their position knowledge. AWR can become stagnant for a player while their position skill sets lower or raise their OVR. All rookies should probably enter the league with a base AWR of 0 since nobody has any idea how they will perform in the NFL. Young players completion of certain basic team mini camps, training camps and making cuts should raise this AWR standard for them. Preseason games would begin to raise some young players AWR based on their performance. This way, young players making it all the way through preseason to be on a teams regular season roster would have higher AWR than young players cut. Young player AWR would continue to raise as they begin to get more playing time in the regular season. This would allow their AWR to be linked to their NFL performance consistency like other players.

I fully agree with a players AWR going up every year just by being on a NFL team every year but I never think it should fall. AWR should only raise or stay the same, IMO. That way, a player being misused in a certain team scheme could account for their inconsistent play, not just their OVR/AWR ratings being lowered. For example, WR Brandon Marshall would keep the same AWR and OVR even if doesnt put up consistent stats in Miami because he isnt utilized properly like when in Denver. His skill sets and OVR would remain the same and his AWR would only see a small raise because of another year in the NFL. So he wouldnt have some huge difference in OVR next year just because he didnt perform the same way in Miami as he did in Denver.

Hopefully, you feel where I coming from.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

Ok, I think it's a good idea for having a standard to calculate AWR. However, I dont like the way it allows AWR to decline based on player skill. I think AWR should never go down because a player doesnt lose their position knowledge. AWR can become stagnant for a player while their position skill sets lower or raise their OVR. All rookies should probably enter the league with a base AWR of 0 since nobody has any idea how they will perform in the NFL. Young players completion of certain basic team mini camps, training camps and making cuts should raise this AWR standard for them. Preseason games would begin to raise some young players AWR based on their performance. This way, young players making it all the way through preseason to be on a teams regular season roster would have higher AWR than young players cut. Young player AWR would continue to raise as they begin to get more playing time in the regular season. This would allow their AWR to be linked to their NFL performance consistency like other players. I fully agree with a players AWR going up every year just by being on a NFL team every year but I never think it should fall. AWR should only raise or stay the same, IMO. That way, a player being misused in a certain team scheme could account for their inconsistent play, not just their OVR/AWR ratings being lowered. For example, WR Brandon Marshall would keep the same AWR and OVR even if doesnt put up consistent stats in Miami because he isnt utilized properly like when in Denver. His skill sets and OVR would remain the same and his AWR would only see a small raise because of another year in the NFL. So he wouldnt have some huge difference in OVR next year just because he didnt perform the same way in Miami as he did in Denver. Hopefully, you feel where I coming from.

It makes sense to make the AWR of a player be independent, yes. It also makes sense to not drop it. However, as you know no 2 players come into the league with the same level or preparedness for the NFL. Some come in far better than others. The minimum shouldn't be so low either. 0 for AWR for rookies seems a bit extreme. If you have rookies at the high end around 70 OVR, then a 60 AWR isn't too far fetched because they are better players. Did Aaron Rodgers come into the league with a better skill-set than Jason Campbell? You could argue that he didn't. But he did come from a pro style offense and had more knowledge than Campbell did...and it showed. In 2005 we graded Rodger's better in football sense and reading defenses than Campbell, and yet Campbell went ahead of Rodgers. This factored heavily into our OVR assigned to him that off-season, in this case Rodgers was #2 and Campbell #4.

This shows that the AWR does make a big difference and because it correlates to the OVR so well, having them linked may be beneficial, so long as the AWR does not regress. What do you think?

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

It makes sense to make the AWR of a player be independent, yes. It also makes sense to not drop it. However, as you know no 2 players come into the league with the same level or preparedness for the NFL. Some come in far better than others. The minimum shouldn't be so low either. 0 for AWR for rookies seems a bit extreme. If you have rookies at the high end around 70 OVR, then a 60 AWR isn't too far fetched because they are better players. Did Aaron Rodgers come into the league with a better skill-set than Jason Campbell? You could argue that he didn't. But he did come from a pro style offense and had more knowledge than Campbell did...and it showed. In 2005 we graded Rodger's better in football sense and reading defenses than Campbell, and yet Campbell went ahead of Rodgers. This factored heavily into our OVR assigned to him that off-season, in this case Rodgers was #2 and Campbell #4. This shows that the AWR does make a big difference and because it correlates to the OVR so well, having them linked may be beneficial, so long as the AWR does not regress. What do you think?

I agree with the fact that no 2 players come into the NFL with the same preparedness. My issue is that their AWR is speculative until we actually see how they perform in the NFL. For instance, Heath Shuler, Alex Smith and Brady Quinn would have all been given decent AWR as rookies but that would have to be lowered to compensate for their actually performance. While I admit OVR of 0 may not be a good base, I do believe there should be a low base for all rookies. This would allow for AWR progression based on consistent NFL performance and/or team personnel without having to lower the AWR of underachievers. Also, it leaves room for those underachievers, to potentially increase their AWR just by staying in the NFL.

This also brings to mind another interesting point about players that dont start but play behind very talented starters and under talented coaches/coordinators. These players should have their AWR increase more yearly than players who dont start and have mediocre players starting in front of them and coach/coordinators. Tom Brady always had the skill set but his knowledge(AWR) was undoubtly increased from being under Belicheat, Wies and Drew Bledsoe. Where as Rex Grossman never really had a QB to learn under or exceptional QB coaches.

So even though players dont enter the NFL with equal NFL preparedness, I think it is to hard to determine AWR before they actually are in the NFL. The players that are the most prepared still have to translate that into consistent NFL performance(AWR), IMO. Their NFL preparedness, like what system they played in during college, falls more under their potential rating than their actual AWR rating, IMO.

See what I mean?

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

I agree with the fact that no 2 players come into the NFL with the same preparedness. My issue is that their AWR is speculative until we actually see how they perform in the NFL. For instance, Heath Shuler, Tim Couch and Alex Smith would have all been given decent AWR as rookies but that would have to be lowered to compensate for their actually performance. While I admit OVR of 0 may not be a good base, I do believe there should be a low base for all rookies. This would allow for AWR progression based on consistent NFL performance and/or team personnel without having to lower the AWR of underachievers. Also, it leaves room for those underachievers, to potentially increase their AWR just by staying in the NFL. This also brings to mind another interesting point about players that dont start but play behind very talented starters and under talented coaches/coordinators. These players should have their AWR increase more yearly than players who dont start and have mediocre players starting in front of them and coach/coordinators. Tom Brady always had the skill set but his knowledge(AWR) was undoubtly increased from being under Belicheat, Wies and Drew Bledsoe. Where as Rex Grossman never really had a QB to learn under or exceptional QB coaches. So even though players dont enter the NFL with equal NFL preparedness, I think it is to hard to determine AWR before they actually are in the NFL. The players that are the most prepared still have to translate that into consistent NFL performance(AWR), IMO. Their NFL preparedness, like what system they played in during college, falls more under their potential rating than their actual AWR rating, IMO. See what I mean?

This all makes great sense to me, but now you have to come up with a way to rate the AWR of rookies and non-rookies given the current system that EA has provided. So what do you recommend we do to tweek the AWR rating? How should we numerically determine a players AWR?

[Maelstrom-XIII]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

This all makes great sense to me, but now you have to come up with a way to rate the AWR of rookies and non-rookies given the current system that EA has provided. So what do you recommend we do to tweek the AWR rating? How should we numerically determine a players AWR?

In my opinion? Rookies have an AWR cap coming into the league...a ceiling on how high their awareness can be. It can be as low as you want (but I'd say keep it roughly around the average, which was 56 to 60, I think?)...If an offensive player came from a pro-style offense, they have awareness at that ceiling...if they came from a triple option, spread, etc...then you adjust down a little, because they won't be used to the verbiage of the NFL, etc...it also brings their OVR down a bit (to coincide with having rookies lower than most veterans)...

As far as defensive rookies, I'm at a bit of a loss, because ANY defense is basically a pro defense...

Another possible tweak would be to decrease awareness by 5 or so points (again, up to you) depending on when they came out--if they came out as underclassmen, or only played for 2 years in college, they've got a lower awareness than someone who was a 4 year starter...for instance. Just a thought.

With respect to veterans, I'm on board with the "years of experience" coming into play...maybe adjust more for veterans who have been starters compared to bench warmers as well (AWR - 10 + EXPERIENCE for starters, AWR - 15 + EXPERIENCE for backups)...that way we're not lowering awareness based on OVR, but we're accounting for those seeing more playing time as well...

Man, I'm enjoying this thread.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

This all makes great sense to me, but now you have to come up with a way to rate the AWR of rookies and non-rookies given the current system that EA has provided. So what do you recommend we do to tweek the AWR rating? How should we numerically determine a players AWR?

On this DCEBB, I am not ashamed to say that, I have NO idea right off the top of my head! LOL

It is difficult to build a quality house when the foundation has been jacked up. LOL

Im thinking though.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by Maelstrom-XIII

In my opinion? Rookies have an AWR cap coming into the league...a ceiling on how high their awareness can be. It can be as low as you want (but I'd say keep it roughly around the average, which was 56 to 60, I think?)...If an offensive player came from a pro-style offense, they have awareness at that ceiling...if they came from a triple option, spread, etc...then you adjust down a little, because they won't be used to the verbiage of the NFL, etc...it also brings their OVR down a bit (to coincide with having rookies lower than most veterans)... As far as defensive rookies, I'm at a bit of a loss, because ANY defense is basically a pro defense... Another possible tweak would be to decrease awareness by 5 or so points (again, up to you) depending on when they came out--if they came out as underclassmen, or only played for 2 years in college, they've got a lower awareness than someone who was a 4 year starter...for instance. Just a thought. With respect to veterans, I'm on board with the "years of experience" coming into play...maybe adjust more for veterans who have been starters compared to bench warmers as well (AWR - 10 + EXPERIENCE for starters, AWR - 15 + EXPERIENCE for backups)...that way we're not lowering awareness based on OVR, but we're accounting for those seeing more playing time as well... Man, I'm enjoying this thread.

The problem with this Maelstrom, IMO, is that you still risk having to lower a players AWR in the future for ratings balance. I think it's best to let whatever the player did in college or system they played under in college only effect their potential grade, not their AWR.