NHL 10 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (360 & PS3)

[Redshirt_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by born_bad

So, that's my question, though - if the team that does presentation wasn't sitting around saying "F it." What were they doing? The changes are minimal at best. Your comment about resources available I don't really get because your implying they had to make a choice - either work on gameplay or presentation. We're establishing that's not the case because the team that works on gameplay doesn't work on presentation. That choice doesn't really exist and they could have (and, IMO, should have) improved both... like every other sports game usually does each year.

The size of the presentation and gameplay "teams" is still a resource allocation decision. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

There were presentation improvements (e.g. crowds, to mention an obvious one), they are just in proportion to the investment we made there.

[Kid_Roll]

Quote: Originally Posted by Redshirt_EA

The size of the presentation and gameplay "teams" is still a resource allocation decision. We can't have our cake and eat it too. There were presentation improvements (e.g. crowds, to mention an obvious one), they are just in proportion to the investment we made there.

Obviously as people outside the business I am sure a lot is said that leaves you guys grumbling and shaking your head, but I think it's fair point that at least the cut scenes could have been changed a tad. If I have to see a goalie do a little skate one more time....

It really does make it feel like you are playing last years game when you see the same cut scenes from last years game.

Though again, I literally have no idea how the business works (aside from the horror stories my friends have told me of extra hours that are put in as the game nears release), so I don't know how much time would have to be put in to make a different cut scene.

*shrug*

[Redshirt_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kid_Roll

Obviously as people outside the business I am sure a lot is said that leaves you guys grumbling and shaking your head, but I think it's fair point that at least the cut scenes could have been changed a tad. If I have to see a goalie do a little skate one more time.... It really does make it feel like you are playing last years game when you see the same cut scenes from last years game. Though again, I literally have no idea how the business works (aside from the horror stories my friends have told me of extra hours that are put in as the game nears release), so I don't know how much time would have to be put in to make a different cut scene. *shrug*

Yeah, that's fair enough. There was work done on cut scenes, there are definitely some new ones, but I'm not too qualified to talk about any of that -- I tend to skip them instantaneously myself out of habit.

When comparing NHL to other games keep in mind that the resources a dev team has are generally proportional to their revenue (and that's definitely the case where the sales trends are well established, as they are with a game that is in its 18th(?) year). There are other factors as well, of course, but on the whole NHL is a pretty lean team and has to pick its battles. I think the emphasis on gameplay in the last few years has been a wise choice, there's always more we can do but at some point it will be more value to transfer more effort to presentation.

[sanders]

Great post - I totally agree about the auto pass.

I didn't like how the tap left trigger to push the puck ahead works. I like the idea but I think it could have been implemented better. I think if you tap it then it should push the puck ahead a bit like it does. If you hold it down you should be able keep skating with the puck on the end of your stick. (Players do this all the time when trying to burst by a guy) You wouldn't be able to change direction while holding the trigger without losing the puck and defensive players would be able to lift your stick easily or bump you off the puck easily.

I think this would be a great representation of what guys really do on the ice. Am I right?

[Kid_Roll]

Quote: Originally Posted by Redshirt_EA

Yeah, that's fair enough. There was work done on cut scenes, there are definitely some new ones, but I'm not too qualified to talk about any of that -- I tend to skip them instantaneously myself out of habit. When comparing NHL to other games keep in mind that the resources a dev team has are generally proportional to their revenue (and that's definitely the case where the sales trends are well established, as they are with a game that is in its 18th(?) year). There are other factors as well, of course, but on the whole NHL is a pretty lean team and has to pick its battles. I think the emphasis on gameplay in the last few years has been a wise choice, there's always more we can do but at some point it will be more value to transfer more effort to presentation.

To back up a point I made earlier, it's far too easy for us out there to be negative than it is to be positive, so hopefully you guys realize you made an awesome game, you just have to deal with us hockey nutters who are far into hockey and are a little bit insane about our gaming.

So yeah, for sure you guys did the right choice. I mean, look at the NHL series during the Warfield Era Of Death, all you heard about the NHL series was "All they care about are pretty games! They don't care if it plays like hockey!" So it's almost like you can't win at times, as now that you only work on gameplay, we have presentation issues. Especially when you guys (And this isn't trying to suck up, it's just the truth) have been one of the MOST interactive dev groups to actually talk to the community and listen to the community. So it's almost like you open up the floodgates for all of our complaints and whatnot.

So yeah, if there are logistical choices to be made on the allocation you guys make for your team, please always choose gameplay.


And yes, I skip the cut scenes too, but even seeing the begining of the same cut scene of Osgood doing his little circle skate makes me angry.

[Kid_Roll]

Quote: Originally Posted by sanders

Great post - I totally agree about the auto pass. I didn't like how the tap left trigger to push the puck ahead works. I like the idea but I think it could have been implemented better. I think if you tap it then it should push the puck ahead a bit like it does. If you hold it down you should be able keep skating with the puck on the end of your stick. (Players do this all the time when trying to burst by a guy) You wouldn't be able to change direction while holding the trigger without losing the puck and defensive players would be able to lift your stick easily or bump you off the puck easily. I think this would be a great representation of what guys really do on the ice. Am I right?

That actually reminds me, the "push the puck ahead" play seems different this year. The puck doesn't seem to go as far, or your player seems to retrieve the puck much quicker, so it doesn't seem as effective as last year. Sometimes it feels like my player pushes the puck ahead a few inches then just grabs the puck back right away. I don't know if this was intentional, but it is different from last year.

[sanders]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kid_Roll

That actually reminds me, the "push the puck ahead" play seems different this year. The puck doesn't seem to go as far, or your player seems to retrieve the puck much quicker, so it doesn't seem as effective as last year. Sometimes it feels like my player pushes the puck ahead a few inches then just grabs the puck back right away. I don't know if this was intentional, but it is different from last year.

I noticed that as well. I thougth last year it went to far so using most places didn't make sense unless you were going down the boards to get past the defensmen. Otherwise players had a tonne of time to skate to the puck and grab it. This year its the opposite and there is really almost no speed gain from doing it.

I think they should just use my idea as patch 1

[born_bad]

Quote: Originally Posted by Redshirt_EA

Yeah, that's fair enough. There was work done on cut scenes, there are definitely some new ones, but I'm not too qualified to talk about any of that -- I tend to skip them instantaneously myself out of habit. When comparing NHL to other games keep in mind that the resources a dev team has are generally proportional to their revenue (and that's definitely the case where the sales trends are well established, as they are with a game that is in its 18th(?) year). There are other factors as well, of course, but on the whole NHL is a pretty lean team and has to pick its battles. I think the emphasis on gameplay in the last few years has been a wise choice, there's always more we can do but at some point it will be more value to transfer more effort to presentation.

Thanks for the feedback. It's understandable and I'm sure the team did what they could.

I'm not trying to be negative or suggest people aren't doing their job well; I'm just giving my reaction to the demo. The problem with leaving the "look" of the game pretty much unchanged is that for those of us that played a lot of the last 2 years' versions, it "looks" like the same game again. So, sure, I can apprecaite the gameplay improvements, but as I said, it just feels stale because I feel like I've seen it all before.

So, I understand gameplay is and should be the priority always, but when the game looks unchanged for multiple years in a row, I actually get tempted to switch sides (to 2k) just to see something fresh. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm sure there are others that feel the same.

Also, there will always be room for improvements in the gameplay each year, so that will always take priority... where is the line drawn for when to also improve presentation significantly? How many years in a row would the "gameplay is all that matters" crowd still buy the game if the commentary, graphics, presentation, etc. were left mostly unchanged? I'm kind of at the point (3rd game with basically the same presentation) where I'm looking for something in addition to gameplay improvements for my $60 again.

I feel like someone without the controller in their hand should be able to look at 09 and 10 and clearly see they are 2 different games and I don't think that's the case.