Why I'm Done With NBA Basketball This Year: NBA 2K9

[totalownership]

Quote: Originally Posted by GSW

great point but the hyperbole wasnt needed to make it.

Wasn't directed at you. Sorry if you felt that way.

[luv_mist]

Funny thing about those shots is that they'll ALWAYS happen in the game that you play. Why the heck doesn't 2K do something where we can see excerpts from other games where crazy shots, great defensive plays, or top plays are shown? Might be way too much to ask. I'm sure that if that game were with some random A.I. team vs. A.I. team, that crap wouldn't be happening.......

[HMcCoy]

Defensive Fundamental #1 -- The Basic Defensive Stance
Off-ball defenders don't crouch in real life, bro. They try to use their peripheral vision to watch the ball and their man at the same time...and are usually completely upright and shifting back and forth on their feet. I agree that the off-ball defensive animation doesn't always kick in, leaving the defender in the stupid idle stance, but that's eye candy. 2K's backdoor issues are an entirely unrelated to their stance...its the fact that they don't react quickly enough to their defender cutting, and ungodly lead-pass accuracy.

I do wish off ball defenders sagged off more. My issue is that 2K doesn't shrink the floor at all, and weakside defense is way too tight.

Defensive Fundamental #2 -- Guarding Off the Ball
Ironically, in your video example, every defender is in-between the their man and the hoop when the cam switches to behind Baron. No one is on the high side. As a matter of fact, the reason the cutter was open is because Warrick stayed under the pick, and got stuck behind Gasol...and yes, Gasol did indeed try to help defend the basket. Glitchy? Meh, maybe...but we're probably still a few year away from having every motion that a body could go through in traffic mo-capped, though. That will be AWESOME, but I'm not going to ditch lovely videogame b-ball because they don't.

That said, it takes some mighty powerful slider fixin to stop those infernal cuts to the basket. I agree that it takes way too much adjusting to get the CPU to actually take jumpers and run offense. I've found a nice set of sliders that eliminates it on Superstar, but I'm of the opinion that sliders are personal. These work for the way I play, and ymmv.

Defensive Fundamental #3 -- Be Aware of Tendencies
You can avoid bad switches by either controlling the center early in the defensive possession (so your wing guys don't do stupid stuff becasue they assume the guy you happen to be standing next to is who you're guarding), or pick up the PG before he crosses the timeline. Standing at the top of the arc waiting for the opponent PG to come to you easy peasy will get you some bad assignments if the play calls for him to set up on the wings. By the time you get over, someone else has picked him up and you now have issues. Its impossible to completely avoid mismatches, as it is in real life, especially in transition..but you can at least keep it at a tolerable level by being smart.

Also, you can stop stupid CPU doubles in the 'pressure/double' screen, and still double good post defenders your self by bringing over the other big. I'm kinda glad they make the double come from the top, because lots of dudes cheesed the double in the past. Lazily jamming on the RB will get you burned now, as it should be. Switch the double teams to "never" for the bigs, or everyone if its a problem...Or did you do that already and its still a problem?

Defensive Fundamental #4 -- Switching and Helping

In that vid you called that an unnecessary switch, but what did you expect the CPU to do? Should the AI have anticipated Shaq getting it at the top and have his man pick him up at half court? Shaq has never been picked up that high...heck, he's never even stopped there...ever. Unless he's settin a screen, Shaq goes directly to the blocks. He does not pass Go or collect 200.00 dollars. Of Course Parker is going to pick up the totally unguarded ball handler, since Shaqs man was in the paint waiting for him. Perhaps the person using the Suns is a complete cheeser, and his stupidity should have been rewarded with Shaq catching on fire and doing a 720 dunk, because the very first time I see an MVP point guard toss the ball backwards to a trailing Shaq at the top so he can And-1 his way through traffic in real life, is the last time I watch basketball. I promise.

The culprit here is the jerkiness you get with all of these animations. The CPU decided Bosh would contest it from the back since there were two deeper defenders, and his animation "yanked" him behind Shaq. I don't like those canned defensive reatcions either. I would have switched to Bosh, and hit the lunge sideways move with the d-stick. He probably would have gotten run over but it looks cool as hell...as does doing the "hands up" when my Cavs trap the ballhandler off the PnR. Still working on that.

BTW, Shaqs dribble wasn't an isomotion, its the "between the legs/behind the back/gradually slow down" animation you sometimes get when the ball is on the perimeter and you come to a stop or quickly change directions. Everyone can do those and I agree 2K should limit that to good ballhandlers. I hate when Z does it occasionally...but then again, I don't handle the ball on the perimeter with bigs that often. I guess I'm saying that at some point, VC shouldn't be held responsible for stupid basketball, IMO. If he would have tried an actual Isomotion dribble, he would have dropped it 8 out of 10 times. I can barely do a simple back out with Pavlovic without coughing it up.

Defensive Fundamental #5 -- Low-Post Defense
Usually, if a guy is successfully pushed off the blocks, he just wont get the entry, and if he does, he'll throw it back out and re-post. So yes, almost all deep entry passes are to a guy no more than a step outside the paint. I do agree that any mediocre big in this game can get that position pretty easily though, made worse by the defenders inability to front the post. That doesn't make this unplayable, but I know what you mean. Its funny they patched the postup whereas now you can barely budge a guy on the backdown, after the same dude just Debo'd his way into position, lol.


Offense:

You must call your play as soon as the PG receives the inbounds. Right away, before they get set up with something else. If you wait until you get to the top to call it, yes, they are very sluggish to reposition...but if you call it early, they run to their spots immediately, and by the time you get across midcourt, they're ready. I dunno, I run alot of plays, and I haven't had this problem since the first month or so. Also you DO NOT have to stop completely inside the starting circle...you need only touch it or run near it.

When Animations Attack

If the animations were rigid, and didn't cancel, most players would be frustrated with the unresponsiveness. "Dude, in 2K your always locked in an animation!!!" is how that particular rant is usually expressed.

IE, in your example, Rudy Gay started his layup animation before the dribble animation was complete. Well, yeah...the USER hit the shoot button one step inside the 3 line with no reguard to where his dribble was. If 2K held us accountable for that, this game would truly be unplayable. We'd complain that you can't start a layup until you're into the teeth of the D, or wail about how you have to watch animations play out before you can do anything. This forum would be up in arms if 2K punished us for sloppy "cancels" cuz thats what all of this stuff boils down to. The technology for completely hitch-less 10-man movement is a generation or two away fellas, and for right now, at least you have the responsiveness.

I also wish they would make the court bigger, something we've all been begging for. The huge strides and glitchy animation transitions can get you form the arc to the bucket without completing a dribbe animation. Making the distance greater would help this alot. At the end of the day though, you can't even tell at full speed. You only notice the canceled animations being glitchy on replays.

Same thing for Gasols sliding. What the hell was that jerky move once you faced up? Don't get me wrong, I've seen alot of sliding especially in the post...but can we take some responsibility for simply not being good at smoothly controlling the players?

Bottom line, the AI decides what happens, and then the animations try to show that, not the other way around. For example, blocked shots. How many times has the ball went directly through your hand...or how many times have you seen a block where the guys hand was at least 2 feet away from the ball? The CPU has calculated the success or failure of the block with "behind the curtain" number-crunching based on whatever stats they use. Then the put it on the screen. The animation doesn't decide what happens, it's just showing you what the background calculations have determined happens.

Success/failure of your passes, drives, shots...whatever...is all determined before you see a single polygon move. If the CPU calculates that a pass could make it from A to B based on distance, sliders and attributes...that pass is going to make it regardless of who it has to go through. I know, we all wish that the visualization could represent that calculation flawlessly, but again, the tech isn't there yet.

I agree with alot of the stuff you complain about, but at the same time, some of the criticisms aren't very fair, and if you let these kill your experience thats fine...but don't mistake all of those for being screwups by 2K, but some things you just aren't good at. Yeah, the "No!!! My favorite game is flawless!!! You're just not doing it right!!!" take is homegrown OS cliche by now, but it is sometimes very true.

I'm far from the best 2K player, but honestly...out of the dozens of "sim" players i've matched up with, I've only played 4-5 guys who truly know how to work these animations, and do the little things that make this game look amazing. 2K has combos too, lol. Things that override the glitches. Mo coming up the wing, tap LT for the step out, then immediately "y" and away from the basket into the stepback, then immediatly use the shot stick jumper which responds faster and makes the stepback jumper much smoother. That sequence looks so nasty. Being sim doesn't equal being good at making this game look smooth and pretty. There's a whole different level to 2K.

One last thing, lock-on D challenges a shot without jumping, and the steal button contests layups..without stealing. Wha? Yep, if you time the steal button correctly, and you aren't right up on the layup-er, they will do a hard contest...sometimes its just a physical play on the ball...sometimes it's a block. Unfortunately, many times it will gives you the steal attempt, which is cheesy and overpowered, IMO, but sometimes you get really cool defense at the rim. Anyone who struggles on D should go to the drill "contest shot" in association mode. That thing shows you just how hard it is to get good defensive position without locking on.

[Pared]

Fantastic post, HM. That's the type of posts we need here at OS, not the ones that typically litter the forum.

[DC]

Quote:

One last thing, lock-on D challenges a shot without jumping

So is that why when I am in an offensive player's face (not holding down L Trugger) and he shoots, my player doesn't even put a hand up?

Because there have been many times I got upset at the game because I am playing nice solid on ball defense and they shoot and my player doesn't put the hand up. I always thought if I was THERE, my defender would get a hand up.

So what do you suggest? Once I see him about to start shooting to press L Trigger so I can get a hand up animation?

[Pared]

Yes, that's exactly why.

If you're not locked on, then you must challenge the shot using the block button.

FYI, EVERYONE on the board said last year that if you are locked on, the player should challenge the shot automatically, including you. I remember you, specifically, saying this and they included it this year.

Short term memory....

[TMagic]

Bravo HM. Bravo.

[DC]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

Yes, that's exactly why. If you're not locked on, then you must challenge the shot using the block button. FYI, EVERYONE on the board said last year that if you are locked on, the player should challenge the shot automatically, including you. I remember you, specifically, saying this and they included it this year. Short term memory....

LOL No you have it backwards. I actually complained when the game challenged shots (jumped) for me when I was using lock on Defense.