Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

[Rawdeal28]

Quote: Originally Posted by MaxMan1000

This is some interesting stuff. I'd like to chime in... The only difference I see though, is that back then I think gamers expectations were much different, and advances were rather pedestrian as opposed to say the jumps we got in games from 16-bit to 32 or 32/64 to 128. Compared to what preceeded Tecmo Bowl on consoles, Tecmo Bowl was the clear cut next level game for it's time until Madden really took off. And even after, Tecmo Super Bowl made a really huge impact to the point that it went down as a GOAT game. The problem for Madden (and I think the source of a lot of criticism from hardcore Madden players) is that at this point in history it's not only having to stand up to the legacy it built during it's renaissance period of the 1990's, but also against later franchises that broke the mold and made a lasting historical mark (NFL 2K5). Even more, many hold the belief that the last gen Madden is still a better game. I personally feel the game controls better now than last gen. Last year, glitches killed the game, but the core of what it was in terms of gameplay feel, played and moved smoother than any Madden before it. I put in bold the part that stood out to me. See, things like that could use a slider. I know I sound like a broken record (lol), but the more ways we can control the game, the better the experience will be for each individual player. There will always be people (myself included) who'll say this or that happens too much or too little because we have little or no control over its frequency. I'll even step out and say that a great deal of suggestions and complaints have to do with "too much or too little". But with more sliders and more turn on/turn offs the complaints will become fewer because now the control will be in the users hands... If players slip too much or too little, with options it'll be up to the end user to make the adjustment to get it where he wants it. User doesn't like the color vividness, or picture brightness/darkness/contrast? If the user has options, the user can fix it himself. User doesn't think the game is fast enough or slow enough or medium enough (lol)? Speed slider... user fix. And as long as the options and sliders have the intended effect on what it's supposed to effect (in other words, the sliders do what they're programmed to do), I truly believe people will have fewer complaints about those things and I say that because of this; in Madden '08, the fumble issue was a big deal for many people. Even turning things down to '0' had no effect, so people still complained, and now the complaint became "I turned it down to '0' and it STILL didn't do anything!" I might be rambling a bit, but I hope I'm making sense I just think leaving the user more control as fail-safe's may not only make a lot more people happy, but it may also take a lot of the yearly pressure off of you guys in terms of the impossibility of knowing how 6 Million+ people will take to a concrete feature that can't be modified. I'd be a nervous wreck about that myself, lol.

very good post. i cant argue with that playa!

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by MaxMan1000

This is some interesting stuff. I'd like to chime in... The only difference I see though, is that back then I think gamers expectations were much different, and advances were rather pedestrian as opposed to say the jumps we got in games from 16-bit to 32 or 32/64 to 128. Compared to what preceeded Tecmo Bowl on consoles, Tecmo Bowl was the clear cut next level game for it's time until Madden really took off. And even after, Tecmo Super Bowl made a really huge impact to the point that it went down as a GOAT game. The problem for Madden (and I think the source of a lot of criticism from hardcore Madden players) is that at this point in history it's not only having to stand up to the legacy it built during it's renaissance period of the 1990's, but also against later franchises that broke the mold and made a lasting historical mark (NFL 2K5). Even more, many hold the belief that the last gen Madden is still a better game. I personally feel the game controls better now than last gen. Last year, glitches killed the game, but the core of what it was in terms of gameplay feel, played and moved smoother than any Madden before it. I put in bold the part that stood out to me. See, things like that could use a slider. I know I sound like a broken record (lol), but the more ways we can control the game, the better the experience will be for each individual player. There will always be people (myself included) who'll say this or that happens too much or too little because we have little or no control over its frequency. I'll even step out and say that a great deal of suggestions and complaints have to do with "too much or too little". But with more sliders and more turn on/turn offs the complaints will become fewer because now the control will be in the users hands... If players slip too much or too little, with options it'll be up to the end user to make the adjustment to get it where he wants it. User doesn't like the color vividness, or picture brightness/darkness/contrast? If the user has options, the user can fix it himself. User doesn't think the game is fast enough or slow enough or medium enough (lol)? Speed slider... user fix. And as long as the options and sliders have the intended effect on what it's supposed to effect (in other words, the sliders do what they're programmed to do), I truly believe people will have fewer complaints about those things and I say that because of this; in Madden '08, the fumble issue was a big deal for many people. Even turning things down to '0' had no effect, so people still complained, and now the complaint became "I turned it down to '0' and it STILL didn't do anything!" I might be rambling a bit, but I hope I'm making sense I just think leaving the user more control as fail-safe's may not only make a lot more people happy, but it may also take a lot of the yearly pressure off of you guys in terms of the impossibility of knowing how 6 Million+ people will take to a concrete feature that can't be modified. I'd be a nervous wreck about that myself, lol.

All valid points. I definitely understand where the criticism is coming from, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What I'm trying to do though is dig to the bottom - if someone will not accept a game as being good or improved if a "fundamental" issue is not addressed, this to me is an easy cop-out to always be disappointed with the game, because no matter what I'm assuming there will always be an issue that could be categorized as "fundamental". It's still a video game, and I don't foresee any time in the near future us programming an exact representation of the NFL. I'm going to make it awesome and realistic...but it will never be EXACT...ya know?

Am I making sense here, or am I just rambling?

[Agame]

I know you expect realism...I do too. But again, this is my serious question to you personally...try to envision a game where the 2 issues in this video are fixed, the OL/DL play is awesome, the WR/DB play is more finely tuned, and the QB control and animations are spot on. After seeing videos of all of the above…………






I think I would have an orgasm!

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

All valid points. I definitely understand where the criticism is coming from, and there's nothing wrong with that. What I'm trying to do though is dig to the bottom - if someone will not accept a game as being good or improved if a "fundamental" issue is not addressed, this to me is an easy cop-out to always be disappointed with the game, because no matter what I'm assuming there will always be an issue that could be categorized as "fundamental". It's still a video game, and I don't foresee any time in the near future us programming an exact representation of the NFL. I'm going to make it awesome and realistic...but it will never be EXACT...ya know? Am I making sense here, or am I just rambling?

I'm feeling you, Ian. But I'm gonna mix games right now and bring up what could be considered a "fundimental" design flaw with the football gameplay engine. Already I can see where the underlying code in NCAA is tuned to be Offensive friendly. That'll make the game more "fun." Problem is that you can't bring any D-Line pressure without blitzing. And then the CPU is superhuman anyway, so if you get close he just goes into Tom Brady mode anyway and completes 85% of his passes.

What's my point? The game wasn't re-written so much, save the breakaway engine and new controls. But then they "tune" the game to put the D at a major disadvantage to complete the illusion. Why? Why can't both be good? It really wouldn't be such a big deal if the OL/DL stuff wasn't so broken to begin with. But to tune the game to lessen my ability to get pressure when I could barely get any in previous games? It's like the Michael Vick fiasco of Madden 04 again. I'm not saying that Madden will be this way, really hoping not. But it is really evident that NCAA needs some fundimental reprogramming to get the game to balance out where you can have fast smart offense and fasr smart D. This tuning back and forth is making for unbalanced, bordering on unrealistic gameplay. Oh yeah, I can see the comeback AI has been brought back to keep the game exciting. Overall a good game, but I'm hoping that Madden is far more "sim" than NCAA.......

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianFifaFan

I'm feeling you, Ian. But I'm gonna mix games right now and bring up what could be considered a "fundimental" design flaw with the football gameplay engine. Already I can see where the underlying code in NCAA is tuned to be Offensive friendly. That'll make the game more "fun." Problem is that you can't bring any D-Line pressure without blitzing. And then the CPU is superhuman anyway, so if you get close he just goes into Tom Brady mode anyway and completes 85% of his passes. What's my point? The game wasn't re-written so much, save the breakaway engine and new controls. But then they "tune" the game to put the D at a major disadvantage to complete the illusion. Why? Why can't both be good? It really wouldn't be such a big deal if the OL/DL stuff wasn't so broken to begin with. But to tune the game to lessen my ability to get pressure when I could barely get any in previous games? It's like the Michael Vick fiasco of Madden 04 again. I'm not saying that Madden will be this way, really hoping not. But it is really evident that NCAA needs some fundimental reprogramming to get the game to balance out where you can have fast smart offense and fasr smart D. This tuning back and forth is making for unbalanced, bordering on unrealistic gameplay. Oh yeah, I can see the comeback AI has been brought back to keep the game exciting. Overall a good game, but I'm hoping that Madden is far more "sim" than NCAA.......

Madden is definitely much more "sim" than NCAA.

It's been a while since I've heard the old "comeback code" line...I swear on my life there is no such thing.

[SoxFan01605]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianFifaFan

I'm feeling you, Ian. But I'm gonna mix games right now and bring up what could be considered a "fundimental" design flaw with the football gameplay engine. Already I can see where the underlying code in NCAA is tuned to be Offensive friendly. That'll make the game more "fun." Problem is that you can't bring any D-Line pressure without blitzing. And then the CPU is superhuman anyway, so if you get close he just goes into Tom Brady mode anyway and completes 85% of his passes. What's my point? The game wasn't re-written so much, save the breakaway engine and new controls. But then they "tune" the game to put the D at a major disadvantage to complete the illusion. Why? Why can't both be good? It really wouldn't be such a big deal if the OL/DL stuff wasn't so broken to begin with. But to tune the game to lessen my ability to get pressure when I could barely get any in previous games? It's like the Michael Vick fiasco of Madden 04 again. I'm not saying that Madden will be this way, really hoping not. But it is really evident that NCAA needs some fundimental reprogramming to get the game to balance out where you can have fast smart offense and fasr smart D. This tuning back and forth is making for unbalanced, bordering on unrealistic gameplay. Oh yeah, I can see the comeback AI has been brought back to keep the game exciting. Overall a good game, but I'm hoping that Madden is far more "sim" than NCAA.......

I haven't played the new NCAA yet, but I can definitely echo the general sentiment. Too often in videogames period (including Madden...at least up to this point) it seems that instead of actually fixing issues they are "patched up" leading to other issues entirely (isn't this essentially how the excessive turnover garbage came to fruition in 08?). I know nothing about game development, and I'm sure it's not an easy thing to flat out fix balancing issues in a short time frame, but it is frustrating from the consumers end.

It would be nice if Madden could take a year and just focus on core gameplay tuning (like OL/DL, WR/DB, and QB pocket movement, etc) without having to weaken "A" to strengthen "B," but I also understand that (as I beleve Ian said some time ago) it would be tough to market that to the average consumer. The irony is that all the time taken to "tune" the game to be more competative or exciting could probably be used to make a more authentic experience...which would probably lead to competative and exciting games.

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Madden is definitely much more "sim" than NCAA. It's been a while since I've heard the old "comeback code" line...I swear on my life there is no such thing.

It might not exist, but I'm up by two score on Miami of Ohio and the QB starts calling the exact right play against my D every time. And the AI knows the "money plays" by heart. And the D is in perfect position every play. And "voila" before I know it were tied. I hope you ubderstand the point I'm trying to make. It kind of a "yin-yang" kinda thing. They add "wide-open" gameplay but then no D-line upgrades to balance it out. So I'm there fighting a CPU AI with D-Lineman who now get blocked better than ever and can't stop the super accurate QB. I guess what frustrates me is that the game goes one way or the other depending on focus for that year instead of growing in a balanced manner toward reality. Is it a time thing or a vision thing, "the running game is weak so lets give them hit and truck sticks....." But not to sound overly negative, I like the tuning on D-backs. Nicely balanced and make realistic plays. It is good to hear about Madden! Brian

P.S. I might be the only one who does this but I read the credits on NCAA. I saw the shared resource teams you were talking about. I tinl they were called "centrals?" It was cool to see your name and Simon's and Adam's. That's why I'm bringing up NCAA gameplay. It seems to be a shared resource, to an extent.

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by SoxFan01605

I haven't played the new NCAA yet, but I can definitely echo the general sentiment. Too often in videogames period (including Madden...at least up to this point) it seems that instead of actually fixing issues they are "patched up" leading to other issues entirely (isn't this essentially how the excessive turnover garbage came to fruition in 08?). I know nothing about game development, and I'm sure it's not an easy thing to flat out fix balancing issues in a short time frame, but it is frustrating from the consumers end. It would be nice if Madden could take a year and just focus on core gameplay tuning (like OL/DL, WR/DB, and QB pocket movement, etc) without having to weaken "A" to strengthen "B," but I also understand that (as I beleve Ian said some time ago) it would be tough to market that to the average consumer. The irony is that all the time taken to "tune" the game to be more competative or exciting could probably be used to make a more authentic experience...which would probably lead to competative and exciting games.

Yeah, this balancing thing was brought up in a thread in NCAA about a conference call with the NCAA guy. He was asked about the lack of DL pressure and said that had to be as not to mess up the balancing of other parts of the game. So did they rob Peter to pay Paul. That can end up being just as frustraing as was the lack of responsiveness that my Offensive players controlling like barges the first few years of this gen. Now my D guys move half-dumb and you can see the advantage that O players have with the new branching animations and super juking ability. Games not fair. Now I'm the Colts, trying to outscore everyone.