Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

[Vadiplomat04]

Quote: Originally Posted by yamabushi

Were not judging the game off of 1 video or even 100 videos, were judging it off of years of ineptness. And why should I look at NCAA videos to see something about madden? Ive been told they have nothing to do with each other.

The tackling engine is being used in both NCAA and Madden.....go look at the top of the blog and its says NCAA AND MADDEN.

[Vadiplomat04]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Yeah, your definition is in line with EA's. I thought their blog about 3-4 man tackles last year was hilarious. Problem is, EA seems to have a MAX of 2, and even that's rare. In Madden, no matter what, if a 3rd defender comes in, someone is taken out. The game seems to have a max of 3 models interacting. And even that's rare. 9 times out of 10, only the 1st defender engages. At best, a 2nd defender may come clean up, knocking the 1st tackler off. In '08, I may have seen 1-2 2-man tackles(2 defenders engaged at the same time) per game. And understand why folks don't like this, especially with all this new control over ball carriers and the talk of broken tackles. The key to bringing down a back is gang tackling. If we can't get more than 1 defender to wrap the ball carrier up, RBs will be running wild. Watch a Cheifs, Browns, Vikings, Cowboys, Giants, 49ers game... teams with stronger RBs, and see how often it takes 2+ defenders to take them down. It happens quite often.

Ok....so you said that it takes two defenders to take a RB down...so what is the issue with the game if the do have 2+ defenders in the game. And if you played 08' you do have control of the second (clean up) defender. I have had many hit stick tackles were the defender would stand up the defender then I would come and hit stick the ball carrier. The thing that need to be worked on is the AI of the CPU defeners adding on to the ball carrier

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Yeah, your definition is in line with EA's. I thought their blog about 3-4 man tackles last year was hilarious. Problem is, EA seems to have a MAX of 2, and even that's rare. In Madden, no matter what, if a 3rd defender comes in, someone is taken out. The game seems to have a max of 3 models interacting. And even that's rare. 9 times out of 10, only the 1st defender engages. At best, a 2nd defender may come clean up, knocking the 1st tackler off. In '08, I may have seen 1-2 2-man tackles(2 defenders engaged at the same time) per game. And understand why folks don't like this, especially with all this new control over ball carriers and the talk of broken tackles. The key to bringing down a back is gang tackling. If we can't get more than 1 defender to wrap the ball carrier up, RBs will be running wild. Watch a Cheifs, Browns, Vikings, Cowboys, Giants, 49ers game... teams with stronger RBs, and see how often it takes 2+ defenders to take them down. It happens quite often.

I agree with all of that. Also watch when guys like Freeney play or Javon Kearse and see how often teams have to go into "max protect." Don't have to do that in Madden as the OL goes all suction or pancakes your butt, allowing you time to complete the 50 yard bomb! Those little things are not so little. And teach terrible football fundimentals.....

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Yes. I'm not going to move into the 3 and 4 man yet. At this point why can't we allow two guys at anytime, user controlled to do this? Let's play this out by taking a look at some images. Image 1 Notice in this image here Linebacker Michael Boley is on the ball carriers hip. This was due to the angle he took as well as the position of the HB. Now you have CB DeAngelo Hall here. What users want from what I gather is that in this given situation, they want to take over Hall and come in and finish off the runner. But this level of complexity has not been there in Madden and NCAA. Not saying it's not there this go around, I dont know but let's explore some issues as to why it has not been there. First of all, let's look at McAlister and Boley. Linebackers do not waist tackle like that in Madden/NCAA. It's always been the super hit or miss. And if it was the super hit the play was over. Second, McAlister has momentum and it does not completely come to a halt just because he encounters a defender, but in Madden/NCAA that has always been the case. Even though you have momentum, once you come into contact that momentum comes to a skreetching halt. Third, because of his momentum now it is a struggle/fight between McAlister and Boley. With Boley holding on, Hall should be able to come in and clean up. In Madden/NCAA we have never been able to do this. But this is true two player tackling. Hall doesn't have to knock Boley off. Boley is already in a position to where Hall or any other defender coming in will not knock him off. The key here though for this to happen is the back has to struggle upon contact with the first defender, something that has not been a part of Madden/NCAA. EA has done a good job of capturing this These are hits that are a part of the game and EA has done a good job of capturing those style of hits. However, context for those style of hits are not taken seriously. Ray Lewis decleated Pittman here because Pittman was unaware of Lewis. In EA's game you decleat players even when they are aware of you. It's the same thing with the pancake blocking. In video games they have guys pancaking guys that should not get pancaked. Linemen are most likely not going to pancake a defender who is aware of them. I see it in All Pro all the time and just shake my head. The OLB is standing there looking right at the TE and gets pancaked. Makes no sense. Diagram 3 What EA has not been so good at is the above diagram. George and the defender are both aware of one another. George's momentum carries him. Even though the defender makes the tackle he does not stop George upon contact and as a result George scored the TD in that game. No struggle by the backs = flat tackling/break tackling. Seems to me that's what people who are criticizing are getting at. The images here are rather fluid and my interpretation is not the only one, but I just tried to give some visual of what it is people seem to be talking about in their critique.

Those are great and I really hope to see tackles or attempts at tackles like that first one. I want to see Duce dragging a defender and then watch him have to duck as the safety comes in to knock some snot bubbles out of him.

[IStillDoWhatIDo]

okay, the video was impressive, but I have a few concerns. My main concern was the 4 year old "15 yard facemask" tackle where they two tango in a circle. I dont have a major problem with that animation, but I don't see how physics can prompt that, especially since it's a KNOWN canned animation.

However, I flat out LOVE the :59 second mark where the ball carrier is running and the defender grabs his facemask, and he breaks out and keeps running. I HOPE they have face mask penalties in the game this year.

[Vadiplomat04]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Yes. I'm not going to move into the 3 and 4 man yet. At this point why can't we allow two guys at anytime, user controlled to do this? Let's play this out by taking a look at some images. Image 1 Notice in this image here Linebacker Michael Boley is on the ball carriers hip. This was due to the angle he took as well as the position of the HB. Now you have CB DeAngelo Hall here. What users want from what I gather is that in this given situation, they want to take over Hall and come in and finish off the runner. But this level of complexity has not been there in Madden and NCAA. Not saying it's not there this go around, I dont know but let's explore some issues as to why it has not been there. First of all, let's look at McAlister and Boley. Linebackers do not waist tackle like that in Madden/NCAA. It's always been the super hit or miss. And if it was the super hit the play was over. Second, McAlister has momentum and it does not completely come to a halt just because he encounters a defender, but in Madden/NCAA that has always been the case. Even though you have momentum, once you come into contact that momentum comes to a skreetching halt. Third, because of his momentum now it is a struggle/fight between McAlister and Boley. With Boley holding on, Hall should be able to come in and clean up. In Madden/NCAA we have never been able to do this. But this is true two player tackling. Hall doesn't have to knock Boley off. Boley is already in a position to where Hall or any other defender coming in will not knock him off. The key here though for this to happen is the back has to struggle upon contact with the first defender, something that has not been a part of Madden/NCAA. EA has done a good job of capturing this These are hits that are a part of the game and EA has done a good job of capturing those style of hits. However, context for those style of hits are not taken seriously. Ray Lewis decleated Pittman here because Pittman was unaware of Lewis. In EA's game you decleat players even when they are aware of you. It's the same thing with the pancake blocking. In video games they have guys pancaking guys that should not get pancaked. Linemen are most likely not going to pancake a defender who is aware of them. I see it in All Pro all the time and just shake my head. The OLB is standing there looking right at the TE and gets pancaked. Makes no sense. Diagram 3 What EA has not been so good at is the above diagram. George and the defender are both aware of one another. George's momentum carries him. Even though the defender makes the tackle he does not stop George upon contact and as a result George scored the TD in that game. No struggle by the backs = flat tackling/break tackling. Seems to me that's what people who are criticizing are getting at. The images here are rather fluid and my interpretation is not the only one, but I just tried to give some visual of what it is people seem to be talking about in their critique.

I agree with what your saying here....but if you read the blog it states that the new engine can brake animations at any point, so most of your issues with the engine are resolved do to that fact of having the animation brake out at any time. The hall picture for example where you want Hall to clean up the ball carrier can happend because the animation wouldn't play all the way out, it would be interupted by hall's tackle. Now what I really want to see is Hall hit the ballcarrier but the guy tackling the RB still holds on to him.

[JRod]

Here's my definition of a gang tackle.



There are actually 3 guys making the tackle. I can't tell what the 4th guy is doing but he might be in on the tackle.

[Vadiplomat04]

Quote: Originally Posted by JRod

Here's my definition of a gang tackle. There are actually 3 guys making the tackle. I can't tell what the 4th guy is doing but he might be in on the tackle.

As I said....two defenders have hold of him but once you get more then 2 or 3 there just tackleing each other.