Fight Night Round 4 Announced, Mike Tyson Featured

[mr_president]

Quote: Originally Posted by thelwig14

I love the differentiation between a Rooney-Tyson and everything else using the crowning achievement of beating a retired light heavyweight who was simply getting a paycheck. Especially when the Rooney-Tyson had some really bad fights. I agree with Money in that many, many people pretend the Cooper fight doesn't exist. But regardless, Tyson was awesome and his bumrush technique and the speed and power of his combinations were amazing. But a 5'9 fighter can not be effective against ATG's because Tyson's style is and always will be easy to counter for an ATG.

i'm not pretending the cooper fight didn' exist, and i never said ali was completely unbeatable(frazier,spinks,norton,holmes,burbeck(th e last 2 fights should never have happened))

...but why the focus on the cooper fight?? is it becaus ali went down or because of the glove incident that has more than 1 story?? i have seen the footage of the cooper fight, and the claims that ali received extra rest in excess of 3 minutes, and that the ref went to get new gloves(not true) is greatly exagerated, at the most it was 6 seconds....and the fight was subsiquently stopped, as was the rematch.(both in london,so no home cooking)

[Money99]

Quote: Originally Posted by mr_president

i'm not pretending the cooper fight didn' exist, and i never said ali was completely unbeatable(frazier,spinks,norton,holmes,burbeck(th e last 2 fights should never have happened)) ...but why the focus on the cooper fight?? is it becaus ali went down or because of the glove incident that has more than 1 story?? i have seen the footage of the cooper fight, and the claims that ali received extra rest in excess of 3 minutes, and that the ref went to get new gloves(not true) is greatly exagerated, at the most it was 6 seconds....and the fight was subsiquently stopped, as was the rematch.(both in london,so no home cooking)

But Angelo Dundee himself has said Ali was in a LOT of trouble and if he hadn't torn his glove more, the fight would have been over in the next round. He said Ali was in la-la land when he came to his stool.

I guess my whole point is not to make Tyson sound greater than he was but that in my mind, Ali has always been a bit overrated.
His political views and bombastic personality helped create an aura about him as well.

What I've always loved about Ali was his heart. He never quit and really never was stopped in true fashion. But I don't think he was the greatest boxer of all time. P4P, Ray Robinson was head-and-shoulders above Ali. The man was unbeatable at 147. Ali can't say the same as he had many difficult fights with some lower class talent.

Regarding Tyson being past his prime compared to Holyfield, while their ages aren't that different, Tyson had a lot more fights than Holyfield. He had over 30 fights before he was 22 years old. And his style does not dictate for a long career.

I also find it funny how people dismiss Spinks as overrated. Prior to the fight there were a number of boxing 'experts' that felt he could win.
And this was the man that beat the undefeated Larry Holmes - a legit heavyweight legend. Whether or not he got a gift decision, he was in both those fights giving Holmes fits. Tyson absolutely demolished that same Spinks.

I've also read where former trainers that worked with both Holyfield and Tyson say that Tyson had more talent in his pinky than Holyfield had in his whole body. That says a lot about both fighters. I have no problem with people questioning his heart and his mental stability or his work ethic. But when Tyson's head was right and he was training with Rooney, it's hard to argue that he wasn't one of the most destructive and impressive forces boxing has ever seen.

People alway say that Ali would have played with Tyson, but I don't think it would be as one-sided as some people think.
It could very well be that Ali would have worn Tyson down and won in the late rounds or with a decision. But I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities that Tyson could have swarmed and caught Ali early. His handspeed was just as fast as Ali's, maybe even faster, and he could sure-as-poop hit harder.

[LP]

I hate to say the ol' "styles make fights" thing again, but it is true. If Buster kept Tyson at bay, landing jabs and eventually the finishing blow, I have no doubt that Ali would've done the same.

[thelwig14]

Quote: Originally Posted by mr_president

i'm not pretending the cooper fight didn' exist, and i never said ali was completely unbeatable(frazier,spinks,norton,holmes,burbeck(th e last 2 fights should never have happened)) ...but why the focus on the cooper fight?? is it becaus ali went down or because of the glove incident that has more than 1 story?? i have seen the footage of the cooper fight, and the claims that ali received extra rest in excess of 3 minutes, and that the ref went to get new gloves(not true) is greatly exagerated, at the most it was 6 seconds....and the fight was subsiquently stopped, as was the rematch.(both in london,so no home cooking)

No, I agree with you, and you obviously know your history, I am just making the point that people in hindsight think (not you) certain boxers are invincible, when things couldn't be further from the truth. Ali is the GOAT (not based on head to head mythical matchups, but that is an opinion of course), but he had numerous fights where you could blast him.

Tyson is a great example. In your mind and years later, you have this image in your mind of Tyson destroying people. But when I revisited all of his fights round by round after I bought his career on dvd about 4 years ago, you really see a different picture. He was a super entertaining fighter, no one can dispute that, but he had gross deficiencies that would never allow him (aside from a lucky punch, so out of 10 fights) to beat the taller ATG's (though I think he would beat Holmes because Holmes is the most grossly overrated ATG ever).

[allBthere]

now THAT's how you get people excited!

forget tyson though...i'm all about the glancing blows and rough inside fighting/ new physics. EA's rosters have been notoriously weak (3 evander's = 3 boxers!?!? etc.)

[Money99]

Quote: Originally Posted by allBthere

now THAT's how you get people excited! forget tyson though...i'm all about the glancing blows and rough inside fighting/ new physics. EA's rosters have been notoriously weak (3 evander's = 3 boxers!?!? etc.)

Glancing and missed blows are something that have been sorely missed in boxing games for years.
In boxing the punch either hits or it's blocked/ducked. But the punch is always 100% accurate.

In baseball is every hit on the mark? Is it either a hit or a wiff? No. So why would it be the same in boxing.

I'd like to see several factors contribute to whether or not a punch lands:
- fighters overall accuracy
- fighters accuracy for that particular punch
- his opponents defense
- what angle he's firing the punch from

I have no problem with a bit of CPU-aided defense. As in, if you're fighting with Winky Wright, you shouldn't always have to press the 'block' button to dodge a shot. Sometimes the stats should come into play where the CPU helps you clip a punch away or have it skim your gloves.

Fights in video games need to be a bit more greasy. Especially when you start fighting top 10 guys. Notice how almost every fighter's KO% starts to dip when they fight the best? It should be the same in a game. Better fighters means better defenses. Earning a KO against a champ or top 5 guy should be an accomplished act - not something that's expected.

[allBthere]

Quote: Originally Posted by Money99

Glancing and missed blows are something that have been sorely missed in boxing games for years. In boxing the punch either hits or it's blocked/ducked. But the punch is always 100% accurate. In baseball is every hit on the mark? Is it either a hit or a wiff? No. So why would it be the same in boxing. I'd like to see several factors contribute to whether or not a punch lands: - fighters overall accuracy - fighters accuracy for that particular punch - his opponents defense - what angle he's firing the punch from I have no problem with a bit of CPU-aided defense. As in, if you're fighting with Winky Wright, you shouldn't always have to press the 'block' button to dodge a shot. Sometimes the stats should come into play where the CPU helps you clip a punch away or have it skim your gloves. Fights in video games need to be a bit more greasy. Especially when you start fighting top 10 guys. Notice how almost every fighter's KO% starts to dip when they fight the best? It should be the same in a game. Better fighters means better defenses. Earning a KO against a champ or top 5 guy should be an accomplished act - not something that's expected.

totally agree. And i'd like to add that every punch shouldn't be 'textbook' ..not everyone's technique is great, and not everyone's technique is great on every punch.

I'd like to see some sloppy and wild punches from time to time, because of fatigue or being hurt. And momentum..if you walk or sway right into a punch it's quite different than rolling with it.

[Money99]

Quote: Originally Posted by allBthere

totally agree. And i'd like to add that every punch shouldn't be 'textbook' ..not everyone's technique is great, and not everyone's technique is great on every punch. I'd like to see some sloppy and wild punches from time to time, because of fatigue or being hurt. And momentum..if you walk or sway right into a punch it's quite different than rolling with it.

Great ideas!
And how about injuries? I'd love to try and muster out wins with broken hands, a separated shoulder or even a broken jaw.