How to Handle a Situation

[Dr. Sak]

I recently became a Supervisor of Officials for High School football in Western PA. I had a situation come to me with one of my crews...I'm reaching out to you to see what your opinion on the situation is...to me it is pretty cut and dry, but to the person involved it doesn't seem that way.

We have a 6 person crew, one of which involves a female. Last season, every school provided a separate locker room for her to dress and shower in. She would not take that room and insist on dressing with the men (without the Athletic Director knowing of course).

She wouldn't dress in the open, but she would go in a stall. As for showering she would shower first come out in a towel and then the guys would go in and shower.

If you were the High School AD, school administrator, or even clock operator that visited the crew before/after the game, how would you handle that situation?

[MrBug708]

Are there rules saying she must change separately?

[Butter]

Sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Are there rules saying she must change separately?

Not of my knowledge.

[spleen1015]

Some one has to.

Is she hot?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Are there rules saying she must change separately?

There's probably only the guidelines provided to us via customary etiquette. She is part of the team, yes, but isn't part of the male species. She should shower, change etc in the female locker room out of common courtesy to anyone who may wander in.

[Logan]

If I were any of those people, and didn't know the history and that she hadn't been refusing to take the separate locker room, I would think it was really weird that she was using the same locker room as the men. I would be uncomfortable that something would or could happen between the males and the females that would ultimately fall on me and get me in some shit. I would insist she take the separate room to protect myself and my school, school district, etc.

[Toddzilla]

If (a) she's ok with it and (b) all of her colleagues are ok with it then (c) it's ok with me.

What the school AD, admin, whomever thinks isn't relevant. They provided seperate facilities for the lady, what she chooses to do after that is her business.

But if one of the other referees is uncomfortable, then you gots to enforce the rules.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I recently became a Supervisor of Officials for High School football in Western PA.

Congrats!

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

If (a) she's ok with it and (b) all of her colleagues are ok with it then (c) it's ok with me.

That's my advice, too. Bear in mind, too, that they're all adults. If these were minors, you'd have to enforce a separation despite what they might think.

If I were you, however, I'd make it a point to have an informal conversation (if you haven't already) with each of the crew to make sure they're actually OK with it, instead of just saying so.

If someone's not, then the tactic I'd use on the woman is to say that although there appear to be no problems, there's either a rule or a perception that you must uphold over this. Keep it non-judgmental.

[JPhillips]

I'd run it past your legal counsel. My guess is they will have a very clear answer.

[revrew]

One important point should be considered. Do you know she's actually biologically female? Here's why I bring it up ...

Let's say "she" is actually a transgender, biological male. Being biologically male, "she" declines to use the women's restroom, because "she" knows the stink it might cause if a "man" were found in the ladies' room. But "she" doesn't want to be outed either, so ... compromise ... "she" maintains the female persona publicly, but respectfully uses the men's locker room privately.

These are tricky days we live in ...

[Dr. Sak]

She IS a woman. This isn't that sort of issue.

One key point I purposely left off is that...she is having an affair with one of the members on the crew. It's common knowledge to everyone on the crew and to other officials in the area. There are members on the crew that are extremely uncomfortable with her being in the locker room, but were afraid to say anything because they are friends with the male she is having an affair with.

I don't think my wife would think too kindly on me if I were sharing a locker room with a female. I know I wouldn't like if my wife changed/showered in the locker room with males.

High School officials are contractors, not employees, and a Referee has a right to remove people from the crew without question. What I told the Referee was that he needs to do what is best for the crew. If the majority of the crew is uncomfortable, then he has to take action. However, I was not going to give the crew games if those two were on the crew together. It was his choice, he could take the crew and work for another assigner.

The referee removed her from the crew and now the guy she is having an affair with is livid.

[RainMaker]

Since it's making the other members of the crew uncomfortable, I'd say you have to take a stand on it. I wouldn't mention it coming from the other members, just a decision that you are making.

If she is honestly that upset about not being able to change with the men, something else is up with that story. It shouldn't be a big deal for her.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

She IS a woman. This isn't that sort of issue.

One key point I purposely left off is that...she is having an affair with one of the members on the crew. It's common knowledge to everyone on the crew and to other officials in the area. There are members on the crew that are extremely uncomfortable with her being in the locker room, but were afraid to say anything because they are friends with the male she is having an affair with.

I don't think my wife would think too kindly on me if I were sharing a locker room with a female. I know I wouldn't like if my wife changed/showered in the locker room with males.

High School officials are contractors, not employees, and a Referee has a right to remove people from the crew without question. What I told the Referee was that he needs to do what is best for the crew. If the majority of the crew is uncomfortable, then he has to take action. However, I was not going to give the crew games if those two were on the crew together. It was his choice, he could take the crew and work for another assigner.

The referee removed her from the crew and now the guy she is having an affair with is livid.

I think this is my first time clicking on a thread just as it delivered.

[cuervo72]

Actually, I think that would be grounds to have them placed on different crews.

[TroyF]

I wouldn't have done it in that way. The ref removing her just creates a ton of friction. Your the boss and in charge, you should have made the decision. Were I in that spot, I would have:

a: Went to legal council with all of my options

b: Provided legal council said it was ok, told her she needed to use the other facilities due to legal issues and liability.

Then if she chose to change in the same room, you could take action that way.

I realize this is 20/20 hindsight here.

[Logan]

I guess my question is, why was the woman removed and not the man? That doesn't seem very kosher.

[albionmoonlight]

That they are having an affair seems like a bigger deal than the locker room thing.

[cartman]

Whistle blows before hoes.

[Logan]

Trying to normalize this situation as much as possible, treat it like any other workplace for a second. Most places have rules against inter-office relationships. Best case, everyone can be okay as long as it doesn't impact their work and the entire office. Two people in marketing at Company XYZ can be banging each other silly, everyone knows it, and as long as it's not a supervisor/direct report thing, it's cool. And it's usually cool until being around that relationship starts affecting other people. If there's a marketing meeting and the fight from the night before blends in and starts making their co-workers really uncomfortable, you can bet that HR will get involved and that could lead to the work situation changing.

That's what you have here. Their relationship is impacting how the rest of the crew feels about doing their job, so steps need to be taken to fix it.

[molson]

(Edit: Not taking into account the whole affair thing) A part of this reminds of the the Adam LaRoche thing. I understand the sentiment that "if nobody complains out loud, it's fine", but not everybody wants to be seen as a complainer. That doesn't necessarily mean they love the situation. I'm not sure employees should always have to speak up and be the squeaky wheel whenever another employee tries to create a situation like this for their own benefit. At some level, that's management's job, to make those decisions from the top so the workers don't have to take sides against people they have to work with on personal issues.

LaRoche said something about how if anyone had a problem with his kid, they should have come to him. But I'm sure there's players on the team who want to play baseball, don't want a kid around all the time, and maybe don't want to get involved in a personal confrontation with this guy about his son, which is just going to lead to more animosity or worse. That's management's job to set those guidelines that work best for everyone.

And she is getting a separate locker room, that separation is just based on time rather than space. If you have two locker rooms, it makes no sense for two groups to take turns using them, one after another, rather than just use the two rooms at the same time. What is the benefit, to the group as a whole, to that arrangement?

[Young Drachma]

Wow, what a story.

[Shepp]

You should look and see if there are any specific rules about locker room usage and gender difference. If there is, problem solved. If there is no rule, you should encourage everyone to use their gender specific dressing room. If they choose to do otherwise, that is on them. If there are any complaints after that. Let the facts of the situation dictate if anything needs to be done.

As for the second issue. The two people having the affair need to be separated, period. It may not seem like a big deal. But all that needs to happen is for one of them to make a questionable call and the other stick up for them. Anyone who knows about the affair will automatically be able to question their impartiality. When it comes to acting in an official capacity, you have to eliminate even the appearance of an integrity issue. Then you also have to consider what sorts of problems there may be if their relationships goes bad.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I wouldn't have done it in that way. The ref removing her just creates a ton of friction. Your the boss and in charge, you should have made the decision. Were I in that spot, I would have:

a: Went to legal council with all of my options

b: Provided legal council said it was ok, told her she needed to use the other facilities due to legal issues and liability.

Then if she chose to change in the same room, you could take action that way.

I realize this is 20/20 hindsight here.

Thanks.

I understand what you are saying...however, by the bylaws of the state I do not have the authority to tell a Referee who to remove. The authority I do have is by saying, I will not give you games at the schools I assign if this situation occurs. It's what I did, and then the Referee has to then decide if he wants to keep his crew intact and work for another assigner, or remove her and work for me.

I do have documentation from all the schools she worked for last year and the emails to prove that she was afforded another opportunity to dress separately.

[CU Tiger]

Had the referee decided to remove her male partner would you have scheduled his crew?

In other words is your issue the coi of a couple on a crew or the dressing room situation?

If it's all about the dressing room then I think I might have handled it differently. If the coi is the issue then you have a better point.

At no point would I have said "remove the female" that is asking for a lawsuit. I would have said remove one or the other.

If the cohabitation (for lack of a more proper word)is the issue, then I think it is thin ice to force the ouster of someone for violating a rule that wasn't explicitly stated. Especially to do so through a backroom strong arm. If you wanted to hang your hat on that issue I might have considered it sequel harassment of the other makes By The Female, and removed her directly

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

That they are having an affair seems like a bigger deal than the locker room thing.

Yeah....woah...that changes everything. I am ill-equipped to parse the legalities of the situation...but sexual contact between two employees makes this volatile. My wife and I met on the job, and when it was found out, I got shipped off to another location. It was the right decision.

[Dr. Sak]

Answers below:

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Had the referee decided to remove her male partner would you have scheduled his crew? Yes I would have.

In other words is your issue the coi of a couple on a crew or the dressing room situation?It's actually both. In this avocation, perception is reality whether we like it or not. I worked with a 300 lb umpire in High School who still to this day is one of the top 3 umpires I have ever worked with. But because he is fat, he was always thought to be wrong.
What message does it send to the schools that I look the other way while men and women dress together. They don't allow it at their school, why should I allow it? She was offered another room, use it.
One of the people helping me with this is an administrator at a school I assign. He knows about the situation and told me up front that his school does not want to see those two together on a game. And if she is on a game, he will go in the men's locker room prior to the game and if she is in there, I am getting a phone call.

If it's all about the dressing room then I think I might have handled it differently. If the coi is the issue then you have a better point. My head is on the line if someone walks in or if someone on the crew decides to be funny and snaps a picture of her. Or if she screams that someone did something to her. I am responsible for all 6 people that I send to each game site. I worry that the AD or another official walk into the locker room and she is dressing, not knowing she is in there. Then I am in a huge bucket. The first scolding will be to the crew, the second phone call comes to me. I can't exactly lie that I didn't know about it.

At no point would I have said "remove the female" that is asking for a lawsuit. I would have said remove one or the other. My comment to the R was, they can both work for me but not on the same crew. If he wanted to keep the crew in tact, then find another assigner to work for.

If the cohabitation (for lack of a more proper word)is the issue, then I think it is thin ice to force the ouster of someone for violating a rule that wasn't explicitly stated. Especially to do so through a backroom strong arm. If you wanted to hang your hat on that issue I might have considered it sequel harassment of the other makes By The Female, and removed her directly. Understood but the Referee didn't have to do anything I said. He had a choice. I only assign 18 schools in a district of over 100. He could go work for another assigner, but the fact of the matter is he and 2 other members on his crew were not happy with this situation.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Shepp

As for the second issue. The two people having the affair need to be separated, period. It may not seem like a big deal. But all that needs to happen is for one of them to make a questionable call and the other stick up for them. Anyone who knows about the affair will automatically be able to question their impartiality. When it comes to acting in an official capacity, you have to eliminate even the appearance of an integrity issue. Then you also have to consider what sorts of problems there may be if their relationships goes bad.

That is one thought and the other one I had is what if they were having issues and brought it to the game? I love my wife, but I wouldn't want to work with her.

[Dr. Sak]

Thanks for all the comments/questions. Even though I may not agree with some, I appreciate your points of view.

[Logan]

I agree with pretty much everything you added in bold. Between the relationship itself and the locker room situation, it's an enormous potential disaster. You need to protect yourself, and the schools need to protect themselves. That's why I said if I was an admin, there's no way I'd be cool with the whole shared locker room thing even without knowing about the relationship.

Even if I as a school admin have an email from her saying that she declines the separate locker room, how much protection does that actually afford me if the worst case scenario happens? Who the hell wants to have to face that onslaught of media and have to answer for your previous decisions with no real win in sight? From a legal standpoint, I'm not even sure if having every waiver/sign off imaginable is even helpful, because should something happen, I don't think a court would decide that the woman was waiving away her right to not be sexually assaulted because she was willing to share a locker room with men before a high school football game.

[britrock88]

Legal drive-by: in ordinary circumstances, you can't restrict which facilities a person uses. Interest groups advancing the cause of transgender individuals make that very clear. There may be the odd state or two that has a statute requiring that someone use the facility of their biological sex, though.

That said, as you've revealed, this is more of a personnel issue than simply in a crew member's choice of facilities. There's much more latitude to work within there.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by britrock88

Legal drive-by: in ordinary circumstances, you can't restrict which facilities a person uses. Interest groups advancing the cause of transgender individuals make that very clear. There may be the odd state or two that has a statute requiring that someone use the facility of their biological sex, though.

That said, as you've revealed, this is more of a personnel issue than simply in a crew member's choice of facilities. There's much more latitude to work within there.

I am not sure I am reading this right but how I interpret what you wrote is: I can walk into the women's bathroom at work, use it, and there is nothing my employer can do?

[Alf]

pix pls

[nol]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I am not sure I am reading this right but how I interpret what you wrote is: I can walk into the women's bathroom at work, use it, and there is nothing my employer can do?

The way I'd interpret it is that as long as the female employees did not express any concern then yes. Sounds like the exact same thing as your situation with the genders flipped.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Alf

pix pls

[Alf]

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I am not sure I am reading this right but how I interpret what you wrote is: I can walk into the women's bathroom at work, use it, and there is nothing my employer can do?

Sorry, I should qualify. There's no redress strictly in a legal sense. But in an office, you could fall back on workplace policy; in a public establishment, the manager could require you to leave the premises; and so forth. But modern developments in sex and gender concepts are muddying the waters.

[cougarfreak]

I'm a school admin. No way I'd want them changing in the same locker room.....just to cya. Do all the complaining she wants. I'm not changing my mind. If she gets a lawyer, they can talk to my school board lawyer, they can sort it out. And it would work both ways. If I had a 3 person crew for another sport (soccer or baskeball comes to mind) and two of them were women, the male wouldn't have the option of changing in their locker room.

[Warhammer]

This sounds like the plot to the new porn flick, "She Made the Call!"

[stevew]

Originally Posted by revrew

One important point should be considered. Do you know she's actually biologically female? Here's why I bring it up ...

Let's say "she" is actually a transgender, biological male. Being biologically male, "she" declines to use the women's restroom, because "she" knows the stink it might cause if a "man" were found in the ladies' room. But "she" doesn't want to be outed either, so ... compromise ... "she" maintains the female persona publicly, but respectfully uses the men's locker room privately.

These are tricky days we live in ...

yeah, this clearly sounds like what's happening here.

[stevew]

Good luck with the situation Brian.

The new 6 division format also seems a bit weird

[digamma]

Count me in the group of thinking that the affair is a much bigger hornet's nest than the changing room.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by stevew

yeah, this clearly sounds like what's happening here.

Transgender people - everywhere.

[BishopMVP]

I'm confused on why you wanted her fired. Was it because of the affair, or strictly because of the locker room choice?

- If it's due strictly to the locker room choice that seems easily remedied by a quick email to the woman and the crew chief saying "Hey, it's 2016. I don't make the rules, but due to potential liability as long as the HS provides a separate changing room, use it." If she wants to protest, tell her awesome, you wish her the best of luck and will root for her as she fights the lawyers, but until the schools sign off on it you'll fire her for it.

- If it's due in part or in whole to the affair, but you can only say certain things due to potential legal ramifications, then it's a little trickier ethically and I can at least understand why the guy is mad. While I'd strongly disagree with him because only an asshole would bring a messy personal situation into the workplace like that, (We're not even talking about a fling between two single people, but someone cheating on their spouse) you are trying to use a cut and dry rule to prevent being dragged into a messy personal one and it's not shocking you're still being dragged into the drama.

- Depending on how you phrased it, if you did tell the crew chief that he had the option to fire either one, then haven't you already admitted that the firing was due to the affair and not the locker room issue? At which point shouldn't they both be fired?

The one other thing that I can't figure out is why the crew chief seems eager to keep the guys on this team together. If they can't resolve this and need to drag you into it, can they really have healthy long-term chemistry?

[cougarfreak]

Just an FYI, I asked my head principal this morning. He said he feels like it's our job to provide two separate changing rooms. After we do that, his thought is it's out of our hands.

[Dr. Sak]

I'm confused on why you wanted her fired. Was it because of the affair, or strictly because of the locker room choice?
Depending on how you phrased it, if you did tell the crew chief that he had the option to fire either one, then haven't you already admitted that the firing was due to the affair and not the locker room issue? At which point shouldn't they both be fired?

I didn't want HER fired. Three members of the crew were uncomfortable about her dressing with them. I advised the Referee to do what is best for the crew on that sense.

I can't fire a person on a crew, it is up to the referee. However I can choose not to use any crew I choose. My job is to do what is best for my schools and get them the best officiating. What I did tell him was that if he chose to keep the crew in tact with both of them on it, I would not be scheduling them games at my schools. I didn't care which one was off the crew. It was his choice on that matter.

Also, I will add again. I schedule 18 schools. They could've went to another assigner who has over 100 schools which would have worked them together. The Referee had choices.

The locker rooms situation in addition to the affair situation could lead to a potential disaster. Officials are suppose to hold integrity to the highest regard...how can I possibly say that I do that if I knowingly work a crew with two people having an affair together on the crew?

The one other thing that I can't figure out is why the crew chief seems eager to keep the guys on this team together. If they can't resolve this and need to drag you into it, can they really have healthy long-term chemistry?

These were men who are all friends. And this one guy is an excellent official on the field but his off the field behavior is suspect at best. The Crew Chief struggled because he is friends with the guy, but the rest of the crew was poised to leave if she continued on the crew meaning she would still dress with them.

Ironically enough, the only time she didn't dress with the crew was when the person she is having an affair with was not on the game.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Just an FYI, I asked my head principal this morning. He said he feels like it's our job to provide two separate changing rooms. After we do that, his thought is it's out of our hands.

Fair enough and I can understand that from a legal perspective. But what would you think of that crew if you knew that situation was going on? What would you think of the person who sent them to your school?

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Officials are suppose to hold integrity to the highest regard...how can I possibly say that I do that if I knowingly work a crew with two people having an affair together on the crew?

This is the only point you have made in the thread that I strongly disagree with, based on the evidence presented.

Integrity is a tricky thing. Unless we know a lot about all the people involved we can't say that the affair shows a lack of integrity. I was once in a slightly similar situation and spent weeks internally conflicted about how to handle it. Really struggled with it. Sat the 2 parties down to discuss their actions and how it was impacting the team only to learn that their "affair" was totally known in both their households and to both their spouses. It was actually encouraged by at least one of the spouses. Weird. Not for me. But not a lack of integrity, in that instance.

I concede that you run in a small circle there and suspect you probably know the spouses and have a strong suspicion of their feelings. All I am saying is be careful not to assume too much.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

This is the only point you have made in the thread that I strongly disagree with, based on the evidence presented.

Fair enough and I am more than willing to share my reasoning. As I progressed upwards (which both of these individuals want to do), each meeting I have with my new supervisor is not about officiating. It is about his expectations off the field.

I can remember sitting in my rookie meeting and my FCS supervisor telling me that he knows we all are married and he knows all of our wives names. If he finds out we are using our trips away from our family for "girlfriend" times, we will be fired on the spot.

I gave the Referee options to stay status quo and not work for me, or to listen to his crew and work for me.

On a side note, this is not assumed. I've seen the relationship first hand out...and I've also seen the wife of said official flip out about it. Secondly, this is not the first affair that the male official has had. Previously he had one with another woman and it got so volatile that they ended up getting in a screaming match on a lacrosse field during the game. I can't take that chance.

What scares me is her coming to one of my games flipping out OR the two having an affair brining a fight on the field affecting their performance.

I felt that the risks outweighed the rewards.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Fair enough and I am more than willing to share my reasoning. As I progressed upwards (which both of these individuals want to do), each meeting I have with my new supervisor is not about officiating. It is about his expectations off the field.

I can remember sitting in my rookie meeting and my FCS supervisor telling me that he knows we all are married and he knows all of our wives names. If he finds out we are using our trips away from our family for "girlfriend" times, we will be fired on the spot.

I gave the Referee options to stay status quo and not work for me, or to listen to his crew and work for me.

On a side note, this is not assumed. I've seen the relationship first hand out...and I've also seen the wife of said official flip out about it. Secondly, this is not the first affair that the male official has had. Previously he had one with another woman and it got so volatile that they ended up getting in a screaming match on a lacrosse field during the game. I can't take that chance.

What scares me is her coming to one of my games flipping out OR the two having an affair brining a fight on the field affecting their performance.

I felt that the risks outweighed the rewards.

The entire situation is not good. It sounds like whatever you were going to do was going to be the wrong thing. Hope things work out.