What will the punishment from the NCAA be to UNC?

[Toddzilla]

The University of North Carolina released the report on academic fraud that detailed a 20-year lack of oversight where athletes and non-athletes were taking classes they didn't have to attend and given grades they didn't earn in order to stay eligible. What will the NCAA do?

NOTE: This is separate from the most recent NCAA investigation that resulted in 2012 penalites.

[Toddzilla]

This is what you think the NCAA *will* do, not what you think they should do

[JPhillips]

Limiting the golf team scholarships and giving a stern warning to the swim team should really put UNC in it's place.

[Buccaneer]

I can personally attest that such fraud extended back more than 18 years. Look how Michael Jordan got his BA in Geography. Ask some of the older geography profs how much they loved UNC sports and what they were willing to do to make geography a jock major. This was mid-1980s.

[Logan]

This seemed to make a pretty easy case for LOIC.

Questions of Institutional Control Eclipse Academic Fraud Issues at UNC after Wainstein Report - 30-Mile Radius

It's impossible to figure out what the NCAA will ever do. It could very well be nothing. My guess is some scholarships and a one year postseason ban.

[flounder]

The NCAA has already said there's nothing wrong with fake classes. I don't see what's new in this report that would make them do anything.

[Easy Mac]

Probably lose a horse scholarship for their polo team.

[Buccaneer]

Easy Mac, you're thinking of nearby Duke. Can't confuse the two.

[Neuqua]

University of North Carolina at Greensboro will lose significant scholarships.

[Buccaneer]

Said this for years but I still believe that no one should attend a university that do not meet higher education standards - like being able to read at minimum 11th grade, etc. if said university wants to engage in athletics but most of such participants cannot come close to meeting academic standards, then they should be hired by the university as employees and all conditions to get and keep the job. The charades and cover up need to stop.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Said this for years but I still believe that no one should attend a university that do not meet higher education standards - like being able to read at minimum 11th grade, etc. if said university wants to engage in athletics but most of such participants cannot come close to meeting academic standards, then they should be hired by the university as employees and all conditions to get and keep the job. The charades and cover up need to stop.

I agree ... so long as the same standards are applied non-athletes and non-P5 conferences & non-revenue sports as well. For as many high profile programs magically find waivers for star recruits, there are also D1 schools with much lower profiles that have students on campus who would struggle to spell cat is you spotted 'em the C and the A.

I sat in a classroom with more than a few of those.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Said this for years but I still believe that no one should attend a university that do not meet higher education standards - like being able to read at minimum 11th grade, etc. if said university wants to engage in athletics but most of such participants cannot come close to meeting academic standards, then they should be hired by the university as employees and all conditions to get and keep the job. The charades and cover up need to stop.

The only thing I would add to that is that athletic budgets should be balanced without subsidies from student fees or tuition.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Having read a lengthy account of the findings from a NC newspaper, I can't help but be struck by the thought that this sort of thing is likely far from unique, and that it may not always be related to athletics.

Anybody care to lay odds on whether there would be similar outrage though?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Said this for years but I still believe that no one should attend a university that do not meet higher education standards - like being able to read at minimum 11th grade, etc. if said university wants to engage in athletics but most of such participants cannot come close to meeting academic standards, then they should be hired by the university as employees and all conditions to get and keep the job. The charades and cover up need to stop.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The only thing I would add to that is that athletic budgets should be balanced without subsidies from student fees or tuition.

+1 to both of these.

[digamma]

Keep in mind the football team believes it has already punished itself adequately by sitting out bowl games in 2011 and 2012.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Having read a lengthy account of the findings from a NC newspaper, I can't help but be struck by the thought that this sort of thing is likely far from unique, and that it may not always be related to athletics.

Anybody care to lay odds on whether there would be similar outrage though?

It depends of course. Are there easier courses and majors at all colleges, available to all students? Definitely. Can the general student body find out real easily which professors give open book exams and have attendance as a major component of the grade? Sure. Are there majors that athletes are steered to, either by their own choosing or with the nudging of coaches/staff...usually under the guise of something like "this major has more classes available at night that will work with practice/training schedules", of course.

Has it ever been formalized in such a way that a group of athletic staff, including the football coach, will be brought in to get a presentation and shown a slide that says the solution to keeping athletes eligible has been getting them into classes where they don't need to do anything, including staying awake, and warning them in big bold letters that these courses no longer exist because the main facilitator has retired?

That one I'm not so sure about.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

Has it ever been formalized in such a way that a group of athletic staff, including the football coach, will be brought in to get a presentation and shown a slide that says the solution to keeping athletes eligible has been getting them into classes where they don't need to do anything, including staying awake, and warning them in big bold letters that these courses no longer exist because the main facilitator has retired?
That one I'm not so sure about.

I was thinking more about this part

Wainstein said in the news conference that his team found a “glaring” lack of oversight by university administrators. For instance, the performance of Professor Julius Nyang’oro, former chairman of the Afro and Afro-American Studies Department, wasn’t reviewed for more than 20 years. Wainstein did say, however, that he found no evidence that athletic coaches were involved in initiating of the sham classes.

[Buccaneer]

When I was there as a RA/TA, Dean Smith had the policy of mandatory attendance, unless traveling. I guess that was more than some universities.

I also fully agree with JPhillips addendum. I would entertain the thought that if the AD is running a surplus (assuming uncooked) abd the state is cutting back on academics, then a portion of the AD monies would support the university.

[JPhillips]

For instance, the performance of Professor Julius Nyang’oro, former chairman of the Afro and Afro-American Studies Department, wasn’t reviewed for more than 20 years.

I'd like more info about this. I, and every other professor at the institution, am reviewed every year. That's been true at every institution I've attended or worked at. What is the tenure/promotion policy that lets a professor go without review for twenty years?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

then a portion of the AD monies would support the university.

Which is what Tennessee did for years.

I believe several others do similar, that's just one I'm aware of specifically.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Having read a lengthy account of the findings from a NC newspaper, I can't help but be struck by the thought that this sort of thing is likely far from unique, and that it may not always be related to athletics.

Anybody care to lay odds on whether there would be similar outrage though?

It was so common at WVU that we nicknamed Geology 1 "Rocks for Jocks" because so many athletes took it.

And I did too. I was required to take a math course for my Political Science major. Instead of rocking Calc or something, I just took Math 23, which was "Math for Non-Science Majors" and never showed up for class except for tests, didn't study for the exams, and I got an A. I took Geo 1 too. The same rules that applied to athletes applied to me too, so in the middle of my multiple majors and Honors Program stuff, I added a few fluff classes to balance my schedule.

This stuff has been going on at a lot more places than UNC< for a lot longer than 20 years, and is a given part of many academic landscapes. And frankly, as long as everyone knows, and the rules are fair, other non-athlete students benefit from the same pro-Jock courses.

[Toddzilla]

I took a criminology class at VT and there were a bunch of football and basketball players there the first day and then only showed up on quiz and test days, and even then only long enough to put their name on the paper, turn it in, and leave.

One day another student did the same thing, and when the TA stopped them to ask what they were doing, she said "If the athletes can do it, I can do it."

The jocks never showed up again.

[molson]

Athletes shouldn't even be enrolled students. They're there for sports. It's so silly that we still go through this charade.

[Bobble]

UNC is unfortunate that they don't have Jameis Winston. If they did, the punishment would be that he'd have to sit for the opening kickoff play this week. After that, he can roam the stadium hunting humans if he likes.

[lighthousekeeper]

The problem isn't the athletic slant that is being covered, but a broader issue. Doesn't it seem that an unavoidable negative consequence of increased tuition costs is the subsequent assumption that a student is entitled to a degree, regardless of what knowledge (if any) is gained? "I've paid you $250,000, so you damn well better give me a degree." College, you would think, is increasingly a business transaction, where money is exchanged for a degree. If that is true, then bogus classes aren't a problem, just merely an expected consequence of larger forces at play.

Unfortunately [edit: actually...fortunately], though capitalism can demonstrate that an education can be bought, knowledge still can not.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by molson

Athletes shouldn't even be enrolled students. They're there for sports. It's so silly that we still go through this charade.

Agreed. Now we just need to convince about 100,000,000 others.

[Ben E Lou]

Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I know too many people who went to college on football scholarships, had no NFL aspirations, earned legit degrees, and are now productive citizens to EVER be able to support not enrolling them as students.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola: And who could not have afforded to go to the places they went without the aforementioned athletic scholarship.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I know too many people who went to college on football scholarships, had no NFL aspirations, earned legit degrees, and are now productive citizens to EVER be able to support not enrolling them as students.

If they were at a big-time sports school, the degrees may not have been legit. They didn't necessarily have the same academic requirements as real students. It's like a college-themed experience, but not real college. (Anybody who has attended one of these colleges sees that gap between athletes and real students, they don't even hide it).

(Edit: Though I should add that it's possible at a lot of these schools these days to get degrees without doing all that much, if you chose your classes with that intention. With athletes its a more systematic thing. The academics are a side nuisance, something to be managed by the school and athletic department so the player can continue to provide free labor for the sports program)

[flounder]

A lot of universities let employees and their families take classes for free or at a greatly reduced cost.

[Toddzilla]

...and just because you're a great guy with good intentions and a lovely disposition doesn't mean your degree is legit or worth a shit.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

...and just because you're a great guy with good intentions and a lovely disposition doesn't mean your degree is legit or worth a shit.

...and doesn't mean you wouldn't have become a productive member of society without the "degree".

[Buccaneer]

Any employees of a university can take classes and get degree on their own time and on their own dime if they meet the requirements to enroll in such classes. Lots of universities have adult education options, not to mention partnerships with nearby colleges and jucos.

My contention is that it is hard to get into a good D1 school (my son will soon face that) because of space, financial and academic requirements. But such a space could be taken by a jock who wouldn't even get into an academic-centric high school let alone higher education institutions.

[SackAttack]

see, "across multiple sports" suggests to me that football and basketball will skate, and the Olympic sports are gonna take it in the ass on their behalf. NCAA will pat themselves on the back for having sent a message, and life will go on as usual for the revenue-generating sports (especially basketball).

[digamma]

Originally Posted by molson

Athletes shouldn't even be enrolled students. They're there for sports. It's so silly that we still go through this charade.

You realize that about 500,000 kids (using 2013 data) participate in NCAA sports, with only about 20% in football and basketball (men's and women's), right?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

...and just because you're a great guy with good intentions and a lovely disposition doesn't mean your degree is legit or worth a shit.

To believe that the degrees in question aren't legit would also have me believe that the multiple post-graduate degrees at other institutions earned by more than one of the individuals I'm thinking about were also somehow granted because of their past status as bench-warmers at places like Vandy and Georgia Tech. And someone would also have to explain why the individuals in question chose majors that virtually no other football players chose.

Common sense tells me that I don't have to check into backgrounds of the hundreds of guys who played football and basketball at UNC during the time in question (and same for many other schools) to know that some of them made it through grad school/law school/med school/etc. just fine.

[Kodos]

UNC investigation: Athletes pushed into fake classes by counselors - CBSSports.com

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...lf-in-the-dark

More reading material.

[Marmel]

What UNC has done is so outrageous that the NCAA is going to put the hammer down on Syracuse because Fab Melo was an academic idiot and James Southerland had a paper that he had help writing. Oh and a couple guys smoked pot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

My contention is that it is hard to get into a good D1 school (my son will soon face that) because of space, financial and academic requirements. But such a space could be taken by a jock who wouldn't even get into an academic-centric high school let alone higher education institutions.

That said, however, that jock likely has more long-term value to the school than many (if not most) of the final hundred or two hundred applicants that are hypothetically* cut out of admission. And the real number is probably double-digits, not triple.

*I'm not sure whether students admitted on a waiver count against admission caps or not

[molson]

Originally Posted by Marmel

What UNC has done is so outrageous that the NCAA is going to put the hammer down on Syracuse because Fab Melo was an academic idiot and James Southerland had a paper that he had help writing. Oh and a couple guys smoked pot.

Etan Thomas tried to be a real student when I was at Syracuse. That's the only one that I was aware of. Always in class, taking notes, always at the smaller section classes doing the same things everyone else was, late nights working in the computer room. It was always assumed that the others had some kind of special arrangement and didn't need to go to classes.

Edit: The fact that Fab Melo was a college student I think makes my points here better than anything else could. It's like if I had to randomly play basketball as part of my job now. Even though I'm terrible at basketball, and I was not hired to play basketball. So why would I play basketball? I don't know. And I don't know why we have this system that insists on pretending Fab Melo was a college student.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

The problem isn't the athletic slant that is being covered, but a broader issue. Doesn't it seem that an unavoidable negative consequence of increased tuition costs is the subsequent assumption that a student is entitled to a degree, regardless of what knowledge (if any) is gained? "I've paid you $250,000, so you damn well better give me a degree." College, you would think, is increasingly a business transaction, where money is exchanged for a degree. If that is true, then bogus classes aren't a problem, just merely an expected consequence of larger forces at play.

Unfortunately [edit: actually...fortunately], though capitalism can demonstrate that an education can be bought, knowledge still can not.

Cost probably plays a part of that, but IMO the bigger problem is marketing. Colleges and universities are sold to students and parents as a place to get credentials that lead to a job. When that's the implicit contract, it's no wonder students and parents get pissed when the professor breaks the contract by failing the student.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by molson

Etan Thomas tried to be a real student when I was at Syracuse. That's the only one that I was aware of. Always in class, taking notes, always at the smaller section classes doing the same things everyone else was, late nights working in the computer room. It was always assumed that the others had some kind of special arrangement and didn't need to go to classes.

Edit: The fact that Fab Melo was a college student I think makes my points here better than anything else could. It's like if I had to randomly play basketball as part of my job now. Even though I'm terrible at basketball, and I was not hired to play basketball. So why would I play basketball? I don't know. And I don't know why we have this system that insists on pretending Fab Melo was a college student.

We have this system because if they weren't students, these athletic departments would have to pay taxes on the billions they receive annually.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

University of North Carolina at Greensboro will lose significant scholarships.

Boise State will lose 4 more scholarships

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

Etan Thomas tried to be a real student when I was at Syracuse. That's the only one that I was aware of. Always in class, taking notes, always at the smaller section classes doing the same things everyone else was, late nights working in the computer room. It was always assumed that the others had some kind of special arrangement and didn't need to go to classes.

Sasha Kaun, from the 2008 Kansas hoops team that won the title, graduated with the same Comp Sci degree I got. I'm pretty sure he had to earn it and it looks comically out of place on the team roster under the "Major" list

SI

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by molson

Athletes shouldn't even be enrolled students. They're there for sports. It's so silly that we still go through this charade.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Numerous, and countless atheletes do take difficult classes, and are there as students. I could name many WVU football players who were in the Honors Program, pre-med, and stuff while I was there, along with the folks who were just taking GPA boosters.

[Buccaneer]

No doubt there were/are honor, pre-med, comp sci, etc. students that also played athletics; I knew a few of them. The point is that they would have been academically eligible and admitted on that basis alone, regardless if they played sports or not.

[Buccaneer]

Btw, Fab Melo is a prime example and one that still pisses me off that JB would bring someone like him on campus. I have soured a bit on SU hoops because of Fab and their graduation rate. But then again, it should not even get that far.

[Dutch]

The big benefit will always be the degree. If they choose not to do anything with that...that's on them. Maybe a small stipend to avoid stupid/tempting/desperate moves to go along with it...but for the most part, if you remove the scholarships, you eliminate the entire point of the athletes being associated with the school. This needs minor reform, not sweeping changes.

[bhlloy]

Isn't the obvious answer that we stop the practice of stopping kids working in the NFL and NBA at the age of 18 like they could in almost any other industry in the US?

We don't like that because we feel it dilutes the pro product and we like seeing the best athletes go to our alma maters, but the problem of fake student athletes goes away almost immediately. Let the kids who want to earn a degree earn a degree and the kids who want a shot at getting paid getting paid.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Isn't the obvious answer that we stop the practice of stopping kids working in the NFL and NBA at the age of 18 like they could in almost any other industry in the US?

We don't like that because we feel it dilutes the pro product and we like seeing the best athletes go to our alma maters, but the problem of fake student athletes goes away almost immediately. Let the kids who want to earn a degree earn a degree and the kids who want a shot at getting paid getting paid.

I don't think that's the biggest obstacle.

One, those leagues don't want to pay for player development and are quite happy getting that for free.

Two, way too many people are attached to their college team and wouldn't ever give up the college sports experience.