The snack food industry vs. the consumer

[Kodos]

A NY Times article about the ways the snack food industry is loading more salt, fat, and sugar into their foods. They really are very similar to the cigarette industry. The almighty dollar wins out over caring about the consumer.

The Extraordinary Science of Addictive Junk Food - NYTimes.com

[Matthean]

The food industry vs. the consumer

Fixed.

[Warhammer]

What's news here?

1) Companies are trying to make money.
2) Media is trying to enflame public opinion talking about evil corporations.
3) People are too sedentary and the human body is not used to sitting around for 6+ hours a day.
4) There are people out there that are going to plain over eat no matter what.

[BillJasper]

Is it wrong that I was eating potato chips while reading the article?

[JonInMiddleGA]

The "caring" about the consumer I'm interested in - as one of those consumers - is making it taste better and/or keeping costs down.

Beyond that, I give a flying fuck at most.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Fixed.

Too true.

[Kodos]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would feel bad about making a living off slowly killing people.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would feel bad about making a living off slowly killing people.

Man, I bet being a brewer or distiller would drive you nuts.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would feel bad about making a living off slowly killing people.

Would you feel better about it if it were a more efficient process?

[stevew]

Every day we all slowly die.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would feel bad about making a living off slowly killing people.

It is still a choice by the consumer. No one is making them eat this food. Last time I checked they still sold fruit at my local grocer.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

yeah, there's no excuse. if you know something is killing you and you can't/won't stop then maybe that's the hidden hand of nature guiding you to the grave

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is still a choice by the consumer. No one is making them eat this food. Last time I checked they still sold fruit at my local grocer.

EXACTLY! I buy some of the stuff, I have it at the house for guests, but I hardly ever eat it. The only stuff I really snack on are chips and salsa... I guess you can add chocolate covered almonds. I'm not a fan of chocolate (Dark is good, but most is milk, ick...), and I am not a fan of almonds, but put them together and they are good.

[Abe Sargent]

Fun article.


But I think someone is trying too hard to win a Pulitizer

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

yeah, there's no excuse. if you know something is killing you and you can't/won't stop then maybe that's the hidden hand of nature guiding you to the grave

Won''t stop? Maybe. Can't stop? Nope, that's not a good argument.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Won''t stop? Maybe. Can't stop? Nope, that's not a good argument.

wut?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

wut?

I'm saying your argument that people who know better but wont stop is a fair argument. That people who know better but can't stop, however, isn;t. It implies a lack of choice, such as mental disorders or something. Or perhaps the example of multi-national food companies going overseas and undercutting local food with really cheap, tasty but really unhealthy American processed food in order to corner the market and the locals only have that option left.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would feel bad about making a living off slowly killing people.

With my Crohn's disease things like dairy and fruits/vegetables (that have skin, seeds, or both) would greatly contribute to an early grave, even while medicated, so those damn farmers better feel bad!

[JonInMiddleGA]

You give me my choice of eating stuff I enjoy & living 50 years versus eating crap that tastes like dirt (or worse) & living 70 years, I'll take my 50 and leave without hesitation.

That's the part of the equation that doesn't even seem to be considered in this discussion.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

oh i don't care if you eat deep fried packing peanuts dipped in motor oil. it's the, ' i had no idea these $2 lunchables were 99% lard and corn syrup... i'm outraged!' people

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

oh i don't care if you eat deep fried packing peanuts dipped in motor oil. it's the, ' i had no idea these $2 lunchables were 99% lard and corn syrup... i'm outraged!' people

Oh anybody who genuinely doesn't know is just a borderline moron & really isn't contributing a hell of a lot to the gene pool in the first place. The faux outrage folks are even worse, they're just full of shit.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Oh anybody who genuinely doesn't know is just a borderline moron & really isn't contributing a hell of a lot to the gene pool in the first place. The faux outrage folks are even worse, they're just full of shit.

yup. The people who act like victims drive me crazy. Don't want luncg cancer, don't smoke. Don't want to get fat, don't eat like crap. Don't want liver disease, don't consume large amounts of alcohol. And the ones who pump their kids full of it are the worst, should be child abuse.

The bottom line is we all control what we put in our bodies.

[Marc Vaughan]

I don't object to unhealthy food being sold - I DO object to it being mis-sold however.

For instance changing the 'portion size' on an item to make it seem healthier*, advertising something as 'real fruit' then its far from it in reality, saying something is 'sugar free' when in reality its been replaced with an equivalent which is equally unhealthy.

*My favorite is some packs of 'tortilla chips' where a 'portion' is 6 chips, yeah I've seen LOTS of people eat 8 and say 'wow thats enough for me'

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

that's valid. but the gist of the article was foodcorp saying 'people like cheap crap. so we give them the cheapest crappiest crap possible. if we don't our competitors will.' with the typical corps are evil spin

of course this is the feedback loop that's hurtling us towards idiocracy (and makes misanthropes out of those of us with an iq in the triple digits) but you'd hope there's a howard beale moment on the horizon

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would feel bad about making a living off slowly killing people.

Did you know that eating 6 Big Mac value meals a day might kill you faster? Amazing!

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You give me my choice of eating stuff I enjoy & living 50 years versus eating crap that tastes like dirt (or worse) & living 70 years, I'll take my 50 and leave without hesitation.

That's the part of the equation that doesn't even seem to be considered in this discussion.

+1000

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You give me my choice of eating stuff I enjoy & living 50 years versus eating crap that tastes like dirt (or worse) & living 70 years, I'll take my 50 and leave without hesitation.

Fair point. Tastes are relative and trainable though. In doing the hard-core low carb thing (which I've really relaxed), I eliminated almost all sugars. In the process, things that I wouldn't have found very sweet before became sweet, and when I'd so much as taste the sugared foods that I was once used to - candy, soda, fruit juice, etc - holy shit were they overpowering.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Fair point. Tastes are relative and trainable though. In doing the hard-core low carb thing (which I've really relaxed), I eliminated almost all sugars. In the process, things that I wouldn't have found very sweet before became sweet, and when I'd so much as taste the sugared foods that I was once used to - candy, soda, fruit juice, etc - holy shit were they overpowering.

And that's fine ... you chose to do so.

If I had less interest in going through that process then I'd probably have, like, negative interest or something.

[cuervo72]

Yep, that was my wife's approach. No interest in cutting sugars, they're just too good to live without. No use denying herself that pleasure (well, she did have a semi-recent "holy crap!" moment with BP and cholesterol so she had to tone back a *little*, but for purely proactive purposes, not happening).

(I have always been more a slave to salt, so easier for me.)

[nol]

Well, as long as the guys on an Internet forum dedicated to a computer game that simulates professional football using players composed of numerical attributes understand how to interpret nutrition labels and analyze the risk-to-benefit ratio of eating different foods, I don't see what the problem is

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by nol

Well, as long as the guys on an Internet forum dedicated to a computer game that simulates professional football using players composed of numerical attributes understand how to interpret nutrition labels and analyze the risk-to-benefit ratio of eating different foods, I don't see what the problem is

Lol

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You give me my choice of eating stuff I enjoy & living 50 years versus eating crap that tastes like dirt (or worse) & living 70 years, I'll take my 50 and leave without hesitation.

That's the part of the equation that doesn't even seem to be considered in this discussion.

Honestly? I mean I'm not really asking you, because I know Jon specializes in outrageous shocking answers. But I hear people say stuff like this all the time. Would you really trade 20 years with your kids and grandkids, wife and friends, for tastier treats? I believe you might, my father-in-law seems to have. And clearly it's a false dilemma. But I would never even pretend that I'd trade 20 years or even five years with my kids because I want things to taste yummier.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Honestly? I mean I'm not really asking you, because I know Jon specializes in outrageous shocking answers. But I hear people say stuff like this all the time. Would you really trade 20 years with your kids and grandkids, wife and friends, for tastier treats? I believe you might, my father-in-law seems to have. And clearly it's a false dilemma. But I would never even pretend that I'd trade 20 years or even five years with my kids because I want things to taste yummier.

They gain nothing from me sticking around as a (more) miserable unhappy bastard.

I look at this much the same way as I see an old expression. You know the one about how "life's too short to dance with ugly people"? I've always thought that was backwards, it isn't too short to do that, it's too long to do that.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Yep, that was my wife's approach. No interest in cutting sugars, they're just too good to live without. No use denying herself that pleasure (well, she did have a semi-recent "holy crap!" moment with BP and cholesterol so she had to tone back a *little*, but for purely proactive purposes, not happening).

(I have always been more a slave to salt, so easier for me.)

Same here. I like sweets, but I love Doritos and potato chips, pizza. I've been doing paleo / 4 hour body variants for a while now. Clarity of thinking and energy levels definitively improve. Having a binge day every Saturday helps.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

They gain nothing from me sticking around as a (more) miserable unhappy bastard.

I look at this much the same way as I see an old expression. You know the one about how "life's too short to dance with ugly people"? I've always thought that was backwards, it isn't too short to do that, it's too long to do that.

So you think your son will benefit from you dying what could likely be a drawn out, painful death? I don't get it. I think the parental instinct is usually to keep yourself around as long as possible to help your children through life and make sure they are on good footing when you do die.

Have you ever asked your son about how he would feel about you dying fairly young?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Have you ever asked your son about how he would feel about you dying fairly young?

My kid is smart enough to know that I'm hard enough to live with as is, without trying to live with me even more miserable.

FTR, I'm not an enormous sweets guy, and I'm still walking around at the same size I was 20+ years ago (6'0, 170-175) ... but I figure it's reasonable to include my smokes & my coffee in the same general discussion. I find far too few pleasures in this world to give even the slightest consideration to abandoning any of them. Dealing with me is a day-to-day thing as is, few people have bad enough karma to deserve dealing with me grumpier.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

My kid is smart enough to know that I'm hard enough to live with as is, without trying to live with me even more miserable.

So you haven't asked him.

You should ask him. And I'm only making assumptions about your son and your family for purposes of this discussion, but he'll probably respond with a similar tough-minded, "live life to the fullest, my dad is a pain in the ass anyway" answer that you gave as your own reasoning. That's what he expects you to want to hear, and he's smart enough to say it.

Then after a minute ask him to cut the shit and ask him how he'd really feel if you were to die when he's barely an adult...if you weren't around for his wedding, to see his kids born, etc. A heart to heart may get a different response. I've seen your posts on here where you're not even talking about your son, but just referring to him casually...you seem like you have a much tighter bond than most fathers and sons that I know at least. You wouldn't have that together if you were the massive prick you think you are.

[Kodos]

Yeah, it seems like you and your son have a close bond. You may be an asshole, but he loves you. If you think he won't be set back if you die, I think you are fooling yourself.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

So you haven't asked him.

Dude, we've had more conversations about just about everything than you can imagine. Including the prospects of one or both parents dying.

He knows that my grip on this mortal coil is fairly tenuous a lot of the time. He's also dealt (at a very young age) with his mother whipping cancer's ass & the very real fear (for all of us) that she might die before he even saw middle school.

He's an exceptional kid, and by circumstance (i.e. our work) has been a part of a very grown-up world for pretty much his entire life. He's more, hmm, let's say equipped to deal with some of the realities of both life & death than the average soon-to-be-15 year old.

He's in no rush for me to exit stage left, and I'm not playing chicken with 18-wheelers or running around with a golf club in both hands during lightning storms either.

But the subject of my eventual demise isn't exactly something that hasn't come up.

[panerd]

I know its the internet but can you get any more self righteous than talking about how corporations are "forcing" people to eat unhealthy and then when someone presents an alternative viewpoint questioning their parenting skills? Geez some people really get bored living their own lives I guess and know so much more than others on how they should live theirs.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah I don't quite get what's going on here. Some of the criticisms of Jon in this thread are really unnecessary. Eat whatever you want to eat, but just because some of us like to indulge in unhealthy foods, that doesn't mean we're bad parents or bad potential parents.

[QuikSand]

George Carlin created a lot of junk, but also a lot of very thought provoking stuff - in the name of humor but also observation. (And grammar, but I'll leave that passion for another threadrant)

One of his favorite bits was something to the effect of: Everyone on the road knows that he is the one driver who has figured out exactly how fast to drive. The guy going one mile per hour slower is an IDIOT, and the guy going one mile per hour faster is a MANIAC.

So it is with nearly all these issues of continuum. Take drugs and intoxicants, for example. My suspicion (based on recollection) is that the poster of most note above would make a very coherent and compelling argument that his aggressive use of nicotine and caffeine is absolutely essential for the sort of existence he seeks, and that living without them would be unspeakable torture. Of course, there are devout teetotalers as well as heroin addicts who would each find this allegiance to that particular point on the use-of-substance continuum to be laughable. His perfect landing spot is someone else's point of absurdity.

So it is with nutrition, I expect. We all, knowingly or otherwise, make a decision along a continuum healthy versus unhealthy foods. Once we do so, we are pretty deeply inclined to get defensive about that choice. The guy who demands the gluten free pasta is an imbecile. The guy who asks for extra sausage on his has a death wish. I, on the other hand, have it all figured out and have found the perfect mean between these absurd extremes.

What's the true answer? I don't know that there really is one. I know that for every realistic point on these continuum issues, there are people who look upward and downward and shake their heads at the sad, misled schmucks who just haven't seen the light.

On this particular issue, I have personally made a pretty deep commitment to do better, and it's for (some would say) the most selfish of reasons. I thought through the arguments above about staying around for my kids, and whether it's for their sake or for mine - that's what is now motivating me. Oddly enough, my food doesn't taste like dirt. Or worse.

Anyway... there's really nothing surprising in the debate here. All fair questions-- what is the proper role for government here, what is society's interest with substances that carry addictive qualities, what is the appropriate response from a concerned individual consumer, and what personal decisions do we choose to respect or attack.

For me - I'm very committed to helping to steer my kids on the right path with their diet and habits. Someone else is surely going to call me a hippie helicopter tigermother nazi parent. No surprises there, I don't think. My concern about that is far far less than my concern about my kids having the best shot they can get. I'd like it if your kids got that same shot... but whether it's DNA speaking or just lethargy, I've got my hands full, you'll have to make your own call there. (And the world really does need ditchdiggers, too)

[Buccaneer]

Eliminating chips and cookies from my lunch (substituting in string cheese and almonds), doing CarbMaster yogurt for breakfast instead of Yoplait and eliminating pies, cookies and puddings in the evenings have made tremendous differences. I still have a craving for chocolates but in moderation (my wife got me chocolate-covered almonds for v-day and they were the most addictive things I had ever eaten - told her no more).

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Yeah I don't quite get what's going on here. Some of the criticisms of Jon in this thread are really unnecessary. Eat whatever you want to eat, but just because some of us like to indulge in unhealthy foods, that doesn't mean we're bad parents or bad potential parents.

I think part of it is probably because it is Jon and he is often flippant with his viewpoints in other conversations but still the "Let your son watch you die because you ate Cheetos" is pretty over the top.

[Kodos]

I guess that's directed at me. I wasn't trying to say Jon was a bad parent. In fact, I was trying to say that he seems like a good, involved father who definitely teaches his son principles in life (even if I disagree with some of them). All I was asking was if he knew how his son would feel if he died earlier than he had to.

My point was you don't eat bad food or do other things that are bad for your health in a bubble. These choices directly affect your family and loved ones when you die of cancer, and they indirectly affect all of us in the form of more expensive healthcare costs.


I also didn't say forcing. Nobody is forced to eat bad food. But I think it is fair to say some are fooled into thinking the food they are eating is less unhealthy for them than it is. And that these companies make a deliberate attempt to hide how unhealthy their food is.

[Autumn]

Yeah, and I specifically addressed my question to everyone who thinks that way, because I know it's a very widespread belief. It's just one that seems so far from where I am that it's hard for me to understand.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think part of it is probably because it is Jon and he is often flippant with his viewpoints in other conversations but still the "Let your son watch you die because you ate Cheetos" is pretty over the top.

Way to overstate what I said. Can we agree that daily smoking and the regular eating of fatty, salty food is not a recipe for extending your lifespan?

And show me where I said anyone should be forced to eat something or not to eat something. I merely said that these companies try to conceal just how unhealthy their food is to boost their bottom line, much like the cigarette industry did. What people eat is their own choice.

People get very defensive about their right to eat whatever they like, and they do have every right to eat whatever they want. But for a guy who is concerned about the rights and responsibilities of the individual, you seem to overlook that bad choices in what you eat affect others too. Just as people should take responsibility for working and paying their own way, they should also take responsibility for taking care of their health so others don't have to pay for their cancer treatments later in life.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Eliminating chips and cookies from my lunch (substituting in string cheese and almonds), doing CarbMaster yogurt for breakfast instead of Yoplait and eliminating pies, cookies and puddings in the evenings have made tremendous differences. I still have a craving for chocolates but in moderation (my wife got me chocolate-covered almonds for v-day and they were the most addictive things I had ever eaten - told her no more).

Ya, that's what I try to focus on, feeling better now instead of trying to (maybe) adjust the odds for the future. I have a friend going through a cancer scare (a lot of inconclusive tests, etc) and a lot of other health ailments, she's late 30s, vegan, healthiest eater I've ever known. It kind of pisses me off and in my more irrational moments, makes me resent the healthy living brigade. My 4 grandparents consumed vast quantities of red meat and all lived well into their 80s. Obviously that's anecdotal and I know we're only talking about odds here and there's no guarantees, but it sometimes it almost seems as if the health food industry and the aggressive rhetoric that surround healthy living now are also deceptive about what they seems to promise everyone.

In other words, I think JonInMiddleGA is going to outlive all of us.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Way to overstate what I said. Can we agree that daily smoking and the regular eating of fatty, salty food is not a recipe for extending your lifespan?

And show me where I said anyone should be forced to eat something or not to eat something. I merely said that these companies try to conceal just how unhealthy their food is to boost their bottom line, much like the cigarette industry did. What people eat is their own choice.

People get very defensive about their right to eat whatever they like, and they do have every right to eat whatever they want. But for a guy who is concerned about the rights and responsibilities of the individual, you seem to overlook that bad choices in what you eat affect others too. Just as people should take responsibility for working and paying their own way, they should also take responsibility for taking care of their health so others don't have to pay for their cancer treatments later in life.

I thought the responses to Jon about his son in essence watching his father die were a little low. You can dance around it all you want but that was the implication I got from you and Logan's posts of the how his poor decisions were going to affect his son. The "not a good parent" argument.

As to your last paragraph I never really got into the actual debate in this thread but I find it helps to be consistent. Yes I believe in the responsibility of the individual over the interdependence of everyone on the power of the state. So I don't believe individuals should be responsible for other people's cancer treatments. Hopefully people would step up and help out or doctors would help out but I have never advocated for that so it is hard to me to engage in a debate of why it is ok to make choices for other people when I don't agree with the premise of your argument. Anyways couldn't the same arguments of cost to society be made for euthanasia and infanticide?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You give me my choice of eating stuff I enjoy & living 50 years versus eating crap that tastes like dirt (or worse) & living 70 years, I'll take my 50 and leave without hesitation.

That's the part of the equation that doesn't even seem to be considered in this discussion.

The thing for me and why I find misleading nutricional information frustrating is that I WANT to be healthy, I was a fat b*stard during my twenties and came to in my early 30's realising that:

(1) I didn't want to set a bad example to my kids
(2) Being fat didn't make me happy - yes I loved some food, but eating is only a small portion of the day ... for longer periods each day I walked and sweated and felt unhealthy because I was over-weight.
(3) I hadn't played soccer/sports in years and missed it

As such your argument is incomplete - if I could eat anything and die a little early without any other side effects that'd actually be fairly appealing ... but thats not the case my enjoyment of life declines if I put on too much weight, I'm less healthy and unable to do various activities which bring me enjoyment.

PS - One of the really cool things I've seen since becoming fitter is my eldest son taking more of an interest in sport to the extent that he now participates in a soccer kickaround with me on a sunday and all three of my kids going jogging with me sporadically just for the enjoyment of it