Flagrant fouls or tough play??

[Yellow5]

Flagrant fouls: This is not how you should play basketball | Seattle PI Sports Blog - seattlepi.com

The first few look okay, just tough play. The last two though... that kid should have been tossed and the refs fired.

Have any of you ever experienced situations like this with your kids?

And for those that don't wanna read the article. Youtube video:

http://youtu.be/K6v-bW6wxoY

[Easy Mac]

#1 very rough, borderline
#2 nothing wrong with it
#3 flagrant, not tossed
#4 technical, not flagrant
#5 ejection and suspension for the foul, let alone for accumulation
#6 nothing wrong with it

Honestly, he's probably lucky he was playing a group of white kids.

[gstelmack]

Maybe the last one is flagrant, mostly #34 can't jump and sucks at blocking. Even the last one he's reaching out to get the ball as the kid blows by him. The push in the back is #42 getting cut off and not having the agility to stop.

However, #34 clearly does not have the skills to be on a court, and will hurt kids. I don't *think* he's doing it inentionally, he just has no skills to speak of and his whiffing is dangerous to the kids around him. For that reason alone he should be pulled. Watching those is what I imagine a NASCAR race would be like if I was driving one of the cars...

[stevew]

This video is way too dramatic and hard to watch. 1 and 2 aren't even close to flagrant. The 5th play(Karate Chop block) was pretty bad, but it's what happens when unskilled white boys play basketball. The final one probably happens once a game in unskilled environments. The refs were at fault for not telling #34 to calm down, and as Greg said, he isn't talented enough to be playing.

[BrianD]

He looks like a very strong kid with poor coordination. I've played with guys like this in the past. High strength, high desire, poor motor control. They are like a brick wall on the court but tend to foul out quickly.

[EagleFan]

#1 - Kid is a douchebag but just a foul, though close.

#2 - Not sure what he was trying to do but just a foul. Stupid play but that is about it (unless they were down with a few seconds left and his intent was to foul).

#3 - Flagrant, again that kid is a douchebag. He can't even say he was going for the ball there as he wasn't even close.

#4 - Flagrant and stupid, different d-bag kid this time; must be something in the water at that school.

#5 - That same kid for the third time. He should be tossed and suspended for several games at this point. I would even go after that kid's coach too, he's obviously not trying to stop the kid from being a douche. That kid's parents should be ashamed of themselves.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by BrianD

He looks like a very strong kid with poor coordination. I've played with guys like this in the past. High strength, high desire, poor motor control. They are like a brick wall on the court but tend to foul out quickly.

It was much worse than that. You can see him laughing it up after the fouls. I've played with guys that were bigger and stronger than they were coordinated and they still felt bad if they did something like that. This kid walks away and laughs it up. He knows what he's doing and he thinks it's funny.

[Ksyrup]

This was posted on another board earlier today. Here's what I posted there:

I'm sorry, but that video is tame compared to the typical middle school-aged girls basketball games I've watched and my daughter has participated in. What they lack in size and strength they make up for in lack of control and speed. Plus, there's usually one or two bruisers on the court as well. About the only difference is that most of those girls have no clue what they are doing - they are just out of control - whereas that one kid looks like he's doing it on purpose... and enjoying it.

[Ksyrup]

It's one of the reasons I'm glad she quit basketball. The games are not enjoyable to watch. Between the lack of skill and the inadvertent beatings they take (and the refs' inability to call a close game to keep it under control), I hated watching them.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

yeah, this brings me back. growing up in the sticks we'd always have to play some bumfuck school whose bball team was essentially their football team.

there must be a mold for that dude cuz i swear i played against that kid 20 years ago.

[TroyF]

We can debate the merits of each call all we want, but the clothesline was brutal. I'm not even worried about intent, that's an ejection at every level of basketball. The fact there were other times in the game the same kid went for the head?

Sorry Ksyrup, I've watched plenty of my neice and nephews basketball games without seeing blows to the head or clotheslines. That's just brutal.

edit: I played against plenty of tough, physical thugish teams when I played basketball. Even then, back in the 80's, refs didn't tolerate intentional blows to the head.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by TroyF

We can debate the merits of each call all we want, but the clothesline was brutal. I'm not even worried about intent, that's an ejection at every level of basketball. The fact there were other times in the game the same kid went for the head?

Sorry Ksyrup, I've watched plenty of my neice and nephews basketball games without seeing blows to the head or clotheslines. That's just brutal.

edit: I played against plenty of tough, physical thugish teams when I played basketball. Even then, back in the 80's, refs didn't tolerate intentional blows to the head.

It may have been a clothesline, it may have been a guy reacting late and getting his arm hooked in the other kid's arm. It is really hard to tell from the video. The kid clearly didn't seem to feel sorry for the results, but that doesn't prove intent. To properly judge these actions, you really need to see the rest of the game to tell how much body control this guy has.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

there's intent. there's a smug satisfaction to it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

there must be a mold for that dude cuz i swear i played against that kid 20 years ago.

LOL, my first thought just from the preview was "holy crap, that's John Davis"

The future Buffalo Bill star OL was the basketball center for our HS arch rival from '80-'83. His Wiki page reminds me that "In basketball, he received best defensive player his sophomore year, was the leading scorer, leading rebounder, and most valuable player his junior year." ... but let's just finesse was not part of his game

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by BrianD

It may have been a clothesline, it may have been a guy reacting late and getting his arm hooked in the other kid's arm. It is really hard to tell from the video. The kid clearly didn't seem to feel sorry for the results, but that doesn't prove intent. To properly judge these actions, you really need to see the rest of the game to tell how much body control this guy has.

I agree. To me, several of those fouls are borderline "lazy bully" fouls. Like, "I'm too fat to move my fat ass to try to block him so I'll just reach over and grab him as he goes by."

[lighthousekeeper]

wow, i hope some professional wrestling promoter sees clip #5. #34 was born to be professional wrestling heel, and that strut he did after the clothesline was pro quality.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Sorry Ksyrup, I've watched plenty of my neice and nephews basketball games without seeing blows to the head or clotheslines. That's just brutal.

I've seen it. Not necessarily intentional blows to the head, but rough enough play that girls were carried off the court, and a couple parents asked the coach not to put their younger kids into a particular game or two given the level of physical activity.

Most of it is unintentional. However, I'll put up an angry/annoyed pre-teen girl in a fight over a ball against most guys. It's kinda like the dfifference between guys and girls fighting - I'm a lot more scared of girls, since the guys seem to stick to the "rules" of fighting. Girls just go at it.

[Ksyrup]

BTW, I'm in Kentucky. Everyone takes basketball way too seriously here. Maybe that's part of it.

[jbergey22]

That team must really suck if he actually sees the court enough to accumulate that many dirty plays in one game.

It appeared to me that he is just lazy in every aspect of his hoops game. Rather than move his feet and get in to position to make a play he chose to play as dirty as he possibly could have.

I thought 5 should have gotten him the boot other than that I dont think any of them were over the top bad but man what a lazy ass he appears to be on the court. His buddy with the shove move wasnt real classy either. A change of coaches would seem to do this high school some favors.

I thought #2 looked like a play I see every game so I saw nothing wrong with that one.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

the beer belly, the goatee, the black sneaks that look like doc martins all give it a, 'i came for a bar fight and a basketball game broke out.'

[dawgfan]

#34 is an uncoordinated douchebag. I'm not convinced he wasn't making some attempt to go for the ball each time and is just way too slow and uncoordinated enough to come close, but clearly he doesn't give a shit that he's being extremely physical and rough.

I put a lot of blame on his coach and the refs for enabling that behavior - the coach for playing him and not coaching him up to avoid that type of play, and the refs for not making it clear via technical fouls and flagrant fouls that would eject him that his style of play has no place in basketball.

He really shouldn't be playing basketball. And if his team were to go up against an inner-city team in Seattle (he plays in the boondocks in eastern Washington) I guarantee there would have been multiple fights breaking out if he tried that shit.

#42 is a little more coordinated and his fouls a little less physical, but he's also a douchebag. The first one at the baseline was weird, but I think he was just trying to get away with forcing the guy out of bounds. The second one was clearly a shove and shouldn't be tolerated.

[Ksyrup]

That's the thing I've noticed on the girls side, though - the refs won't do a damned thing about it. And worse, they sometimes create the atmosphere where the play gets out of control by waiting way too long to stop play. In the girls game, there are easily 2 dozen jump ball situations. Rather than blowing the play dead, they allow 3-4 girls to wrestle for the ball until a couple of them get pissed, start waving their arms around, and then the attitude carries over into the next several minutes of play, and the physicality just increases and increases until kids are getting knocked down every trip up and down the floor. It's crazy.

[Dr. Sak]

#1 - Hard foul.
#2 - I dont see the big deal.
#3 - Offensive guy slips before contact is made. Looked worse than it was, still a foul but nothing flagrant
#4 - Not a flagrant foul but I'd probably T him up just for being a jackass. At leastI would talk to him and let him know that the next borderline hard foul, he is gone.
#5 - Definitely flagrant and I'd throw him out.

This could have all been taken care of after the first hard foul. Walk over to the kid and tell him it won't be tolerated. Agree that the refs let this get out of hand. In my experience, preventive officiating (talking to the kids) helps a ton. However, not all officials do it.

[RainMaker]

This isn't the NBA. They were clearly trying to hurt the other team and that shit has no place in the sport. Sign up for football where the other player is at least in a position to defend themselves. They should both be thrown out of the league as they have no interest in playing basketball.

[Shkspr]

Elizabeth Lambert is shocked that any of those are considered fouls.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This isn't the NBA. They were clearly trying to hurt the other team and that shit has no place in the sport. Sign up for football where the other player is at least in a position to defend themselves. They should both be thrown out of the league as they have no interest in playing basketball.

Agreed - the smug look on the kids face afterward was enough for me to want to slap him silly. Seriously.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

He really shouldn't be playing basketball. And if his team were to go up against an inner-city team in Seattle (he plays in the boondocks in eastern Washington) I guarantee there would have been multiple fights breaking out if he tried that shit.

I don't think he'd last a quarter in a game here in Lakewood either. My first year coaching a youth team here (co-ed K-1st) I had to break up 2 fights. Every year there's a kid that tries to play like that and every year there's kids that won't put up with it. I was coaching last year (2nd-3rd grade boys) and we ran into a team that set hard screens and intentionally tried to blindside our kids with them. The scorekeeper ended up stopping the game with a minute left and ruling it a no-contest because the refs had lost control (3 point game at the time).

I thought the 1st was a flagrant. The 2nd wasn't, but considering this is all in the same game there reaches a point where the refs have to take control of the game. So as an isolated incident I don't think the 3rd was a flagrant, but it needed to be called anyway to put a stop to the bullshit. The 4th is a flagrant. The 5th should have been an ejection of both the player and coach.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm not really that alarmed by the fouls, but even if he didn't play basketball, that smarmy fuckface #34 has a look that says "punch me in the face, steal my oversized pickup truck, and drive over me with it."

Edit: I mean grossly oversized pickup truck.

[stevew]

Again, I don't think many of you all have seen white country boys play basketball. These hits are way worse on video and in slow mo. This isn't the Joga Bonito style of basketball.

[RainMaker]

Not sure how they didn't get thrown out. As someone who has officiated in the past, he would have been thrown out of the game pretty early. It's on the refs to keep the game and players under control.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

Again, I don't think many of you all have seen white country boys play basketball. These hits are way worse on video and in slow mo. This isn't the Joga Bonito style of basketball.

Well whatever you call it, it's not basketball.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by stevew

Again, I don't think many of you all have seen white country boys play basketball. These hits are way worse on video and in slow mo. This isn't the Joga Bonito style of basketball.

Yeah, I played with one of these guys on my team...minus the smug grin. That "flagrant" foul #5 happened at least a couple of times a month in practice. There were also a handful of black eyes and cuts from random elbows. He was a great guy and never meant any harm, but he was dangerous on the court.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This isn't the NBA. They were clearly trying to hurt the other team and that shit has no place in the sport. Sign up for football where the other player is at least in a position to defend themselves. They should both be thrown out of the league as they have no interest in playing basketball.

Agreed.

We had a game back in high school against a close rival school - rugby rivals at least, they were terrible at basketball - and found ourselves with a very healthy lead at halftime. Then they started the strategy of fouling us not unlike this video at every opportunity - except instead of the perps being the uncoordinated chunky white dude in this clip, imagine five Pacific Islanders built like linebackers. 5 or so minutes in to the half our coach called us off the court and forfeit the game, sent a letter of protest, and the other team was disqualified for, IIRC, multiple years.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well whatever you call it, it's not basketball.

Exactly. It seems like the refs probably didn't call tough because they are possibly used to this kind of play. This kind of play shouldn't be allowed on any basketball court, period. It goes against the way basketball is supposed to be played, but more importantly, it could get someone seriously injured with the possibility of a fatal accident if you get a badly placed clothesline and a bad hit of the head on the court.... So what if tossing two guys like this means a team has to play their 5'9 150lb kid down low, what he ends up doing will probably more closely resemble playing basketball than these guys who think they are still playing in the trenches on the gridiron.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

5 or so minutes in to the half our coach called us off the court and forfeit the game, sent a letter of protest, and the other team was disqualified for, IIRC, multiple years.

Good for him, sounds like a great coach.

[JonInMiddleGA]

1) Oh please. I'd rather he move his feet & all, but calling that one flagrant is just silly. The multiple slo-mos of it have me thinking Sandy Vagina already.

2) LOL, that's less of an issue than the first. And, as someone mentioned earlier, it does remind me of a girls bball foul, see that one a lot. (and with the team I follow most closely right now, we're extremely soft but the only reaction that would get would be mild happiness about the possible chance to go to the line on the other end. We'd miss the FT but still ... )

3) That honestly looks like "Hoss" is just really f'n clumsy. It looks bad & was a pretty good blow, but after watching it several times it looks like he was expecting the guy to lean into the lane for the shot & wanted a block. Shooter didn't move & instead he smacked him. Tell-tale may be in his motion, his arm is fully extended his hand is open, the movement is a "swat". If his intentions were something other than a basketball play, you at least bend the arm to get some elbow into it or even close the hand. From the reaction I was expecting him to have busted on the old double ax-handle blow from a 70's wrestling show. I would have preferred to see a little more concern on his part after the foul, but the absence isn't an indictment to me either.

4) Stupid play. Then again, it's in the middle of a loose ball situation, he's clearly heading for the ball with an intent to defend. He also completely ignores the guy he shoved & immediately turns his attention to the guy with possession, further diminishing any thoughts of actual bad intentions on the shove. A fair case for an intentional foul here, far too little force behind the shove to think it warrants a flagrant though.

5) The only one that looks problematic to me. By definition, that's a flagrant for "excessive or severe contact". It was an ole' foul, "you beat me but I better vaguely make it look like I was trying". In the process, he pretty much clotheslines the guy. I don't think the thought process went so far as "hey, I can clothesline him", looks more like "fuck it, I don't really care what sort of contact is made". Still, no question that warranted a flagrant.

Note: the video seems to try to highlight the smirk/smile/whatever on his face during the FT, but if you look closely (around 3:17 or so), the brief conversation with the ref even includes a small chuckle from the official. Don't know what was said, but given some of the things I've heard during games, I'm not as bothered by that as some folks I guess. Impossible to tell whether he's laughing at the violent contact or simply at something that was said/heard.

6) That's just a stuff with body contact, very mundane foul.

Honestly, I was expecting a lot more from all the commotion. Instead, I see two fouls I'd describe as "hard fouls", one of which warranted a flagrant. One (the loose ball shove) that wasn't hard but was pretty silly & technically "intentional" and three others that are pretty run of the mill stuff that you can see in most HS games on any given night (especially with teams that feature a lot of slow white guys).

[Blackadar]

#1. Foul, but not anywhere close to flagrant.
#2. Foul, but not anywhere close to flagrant.
#3. The other kid slipped into the fat kid's arm. Foul, but not anywhere close to flagrant.
#4. Technical, but not flagrant.
#5. Flagrant, the kid deserved to be ejected for that. You have to at least "T" him up for that.
#6. Foul, but not anywhere close to flagrant. Being a fatass and unable to jump doesn't mean a foul is flagrant.

For the entire body of work? A 1 game suspension is probably in order for #34. But that's it. I've seen far worse on the court and on the field.

[Ragone]

ok.. commenting as i go

#1- The kid with the ball clearly left his feet not knowing where he was going with the ball, if #34 had just stood his ground, a clear charge.. however he clearly thugged him.. Just a Foul

#2- Just kids battling for a loose ball, nothing really wrong with it

#3- Thats just a foul, clearly he was expecting the guy to stop and go up, instead of slam into him.. thats the 2nd time the guy with the ball has gone wildly into him... a good team would have this guard fouled out in minutes

#4 Intentional foul, he clearly extended to shove the guy

#5 Clearly Flagrant, but #34 clearly doesn't belong playing anything other then street ball..

#6 Over the back, nothing more

Like Jim said above, someone from the offended school got all bent out of shape because of a physical game played by inferior athletes(on both sides no less, i saw moving picks from the red team)

[stevew]

of the sandy vagina factor, apparently the Highland people lost

Highland 10 18 8 1 — 37
Connell 7 14 11 6 — 38

It's possible that scoring more than 1 point in the 4th quarter would have made all this horrible thug-like behavior moot.

Neither of these teams are any good.

http://sportsyakima.com/2011/12/prep...edge-highland/

[tarcone]

I saw it as, the football season ended and the LG came out ot play basketball because no one else in the school would play.
There is a definite lack of talent all around. And on the foul where there is a push from behind, the red kid is slowing down and extending his arms to keep the kid away. Not a basketball play. and a possible foul on him. Thats almost a moving pick. If the kid hadnt pushed him.

As for the person who posted the video, there has to be an agenda. These teams must play each other a lot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I saw it as, the football season ended and the LG came out ot play basketball because no one else in the school would play.

You just described at least 1/3rd, if not more, of the HS BB teams in GA.

[RainMaker]

Half of them are cheap shots and they would be thrown out of any game in a respectable league.

[Atocep]

I think there's a misunderstanding of the rules here by some. Intentional fouls technically don't exist anymore. They fall under flagrant fouls.

There are two types of flagrant fouls. There's the Flagrant Personal and the Flagrant Technical

• A flagrant personal foul (or intentional foul) involves excessive or severe contact during a live ball.
• A flagrant technical foul involves unsportsmanlike conduct that is extreme in nature, or excessive or severe contact during a dead ball. Fighting is also considered a flagrant technical foul.

The penalty for a flagrant foul in NCAA and NFHS rules is immediate ejection of the offending player, plus two free throws and a throw-in for the opposing team. The ejected player is also suspended during the next game played by his or her team.

• For a flagrant personal foul (or intentional foul), the throw-in spot is at the out-of-bounds spot nearest the foul.
• For a flagrant technical foul, the throw-in spot is at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

[Marc Vaughan]

I personally think its awful that the media are lambasting a kid over a high school match as if he was a professional player - as a high school soccer player with poor co-ordination I'm sure I fouled people sporadically in a manner which could have been presented similarly badly (the main kid in the video has REALLY slow reaction speed you can see that much from the footage).

To me its like someone following a married couple around for a month and recording the worst moments of their marriage and then presenting them in a 2-3 minute video showing how awful a husband you are .... given the right incidents (all 6 of them which are shown repeatedly several times each to give the impression there are more) you can slant things hugely.

[Marc Vaughan]

PS - My son has played Basketball with his school over here, he'd look equally as bloody awful in a video .... not least because he simply doesn't understand fully the rules of the game* - its not that his intent is to foul, just that he's not particularly agile and its been 'presumed' he knows how to play (and despite me having told the teacher repeatedly he doesn't he still hasn't had things adequately explained to him which frustrates the heck out of him).

Its annoying because I play PIG etc. with him at home and he's actually a pretty good shooter, he's only 12 but is tall for his age and while he's never going to be an 'athlete' I think he could learn enough to enjoy playing at an amateur level in a similar manner to what I do with soccer.

*Neither do I tbh they seem to differ a LOT from how I learnt basketball in Europe, not least because as an attacker you appear to be able to gain a foul simply by running into defenders?

[dzilla77]

Originally Posted by Ragone

ok.. commenting as i go

#1- The kid with the ball clearly left his feet not knowing where he was going with the ball, if #34 had just stood his ground, a clear charge.. however he clearly thugged him.. Just a Foul

#2- Just kids battling for a loose ball, nothing really wrong with it

#3- Thats just a foul, clearly he was expecting the guy to stop and go up, instead of slam into him.. thats the 2nd time the guy with the ball has gone wildly into him... a good team would have this guard fouled out in minutes

#4 Intentional foul, he clearly extended to shove the guy

#5 Clearly Flagrant, but #34 clearly doesn't belong playing anything other then street ball..

#6 Over the back, nothing more

Like Jim said above, someone from the offended school got all bent out of shape because of a physical game played by inferior athletes(on both sides no less, i saw moving picks from the red team)

Agree with this completely. Also, on play number 6, the kid with ball stepped on the end line. Not sure if it was before or after the foul.

[britrock88]

It's only a lot of inept basketball from some hefty kids who decided not to move their feet. But it certainly is unsafe; it's the kind of thing I hope a coach could correct in his players, or at least ameliorate by benching the kids.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

*Neither do I tbh they seem to differ a LOT from how I learnt basketball in Europe, not least because as an attacker you appear to be able to gain a foul simply by running into defenders?

listen here mr. glass house, flopping wasn't even in our lexicon until those nancy euros brought it over.

if we treated the lane like the penalty area it would look like a grenade went off every play.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Connell finished 4th in the state in their classification in 2008, otherwise not much success in their boys basketball history (their girls have finished 6th in their classification for three straight years)
http://www.wiaa.com/ardisplay.aspx?ID=473

Highland's boy were a lower classification power in the 80's, not much success since then.
http://www.wiaa.com/ardisplay.aspx?ID=473

Meanwhile, on the gridiron ...
Highland has only made the playoffs once in school history, a loss back in the 80's.

Connell on the other hand is the recently crowned state football champion in Class A, was the runner-up in 2010, state champ in 2009, and back to back runner-up finished in 2006 & 2007.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think there's a misunderstanding of the rules here by some. Intentional fouls technically don't exist anymore. They fall under flagrant fouls.

There are two types of flagrant fouls. There's the Flagrant Personal and the Flagrant Technical

I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Intentional fouls do exist as just personal fouls. In Rule 4 of the NFHS rule book are the definitions and under the definition of Fouls it has an Article specifically for Intentional Fouls.

Rule 4-19.3 reads as follows:

An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based souly on the severity of the act. Intentional fouls include but are not limited to:

a) Contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position.
b) Contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with the play.
c) Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball/player specifically designed to stop the clock or keep it from starting.
d) Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.
e) Contact with a thrower-in as in 9-2-10 Penalty 4

While I agree with you that intentional fouls can be flagrant, however, they can just be common fouls too.