Devin Hester - HOFer?

[Carman Bulldog]

So where do people stand on the Devin Hester Hall of Fame argument that will take place a few years down the line. There isn't much disputing that he's the most outstanding returner in history, but unlike some other great returners, he's entirely one dimensional. Thoughts?

[britrock88]

Methinks that because he's one-dimensional, Hester will have to be a "far and away"-quality return man to get to Canton.

[Young Drachma]

Steve Tasker and Brian Mitchell aren't in the Hall. Seems hard to imagine.

[stevew]

I expect that he will eventually make it, but that it will most likely be late in his eligibility/veterans selection. He's a #3 or 4 WR. A guy like Tim Brown, who returned a ton of punts was no slam dunk, and he has 14000 receiving yards. There are also going to be some crazy good players of this generation that he will compete with.

[DougW]

I say, no way. The position (KR/PR) simply doesn't offer enough touches to warrant consideration - even with someone like him, who excels at it. And he isn't effective enough (well below average) at the other position to enter it into the mix.

40 KRs, and 40 PRs is above the norm - and even at that rate, you're talking 5 touches a game. Even if he has a monster year, and runs back 5 kicks - still .... no way does a TD every 3 games get you in the hall in my mind.

Is he the best ever as a returner ? Maybe.

But, there is a reason that teams often don't put their best potential returner at that position. Even to an NFL team, the reward of a standout returner isn't worth the injury risk. (If he's worth a crap at a "real" position.)

[Warhammer]

I'm of the belief that if you are the best at any given position, you should be in the Hall.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I'm of the belief that if you are the best at any given position, you should be in the Hall.

Which long snapper should we enshrine? Who's the best holder? We're specialized enough in the modern game that the "third down running back" requires a separate skill set than the starter; who gets that bust?

The flip side of Doug's argument - that 80 touches and 5 TDs a season isn't greatness - is that a TD every fifteen touches, when said touchdowns usually require at least 50 yards of running through all eleven opposing players, is so impressive as to merit special consideration outside positional norms. I'm sympathetic to this view provided the rate is upheld for a long career. If Hester is able to retain his moves and speed and play another, say, eight years, and still be breaking off runs as a 36-37 year old, then I'd support his inclusion. Not before.

[jbergey22]

Ive seen enough to know he is probably the best return man any of us will ever see play. Also, his return game was a big part of the Bears getting to the Super Bowl a few years back so it had a huge impact. I vote yes as he is certainly a game changer.

[Barkeep49]

I think special teams are a perpetually under recognized aspect of football. I think that Devin Hester can change a game every time he touches the ball and he should be a Hall of Famer, but he won't be one.

[Raiders Army]

No. Wasn't there a discussion of Daunte Hall at some point?

[Ksyrup]

If punters aren't allowed in, kick returners shouldn't be, either.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If punters aren't allowed in, kick returners shouldn't be, either.

Didnt Ray Guy get in? Or was he a finalist maybe.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

No. Wasn't there a discussion of Daunte Hall at some point?

I remember there being an attempted discussion of Hall being the MVP (at least at the midway/week 12 or so point of the season when he was going nuts returning kicks), but don't think people mentioned HOF for him.

I'll side with Hester should be, but he won't be.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Didnt Ray Guy get in? Or was he a finalist maybe.

Nope, and I don't think he's ever gotten close to it. There's only one kicker in the hall and no punters.

EDIT: There are plenty of "pre-modern" players who kicked and punted that are in, but in those cases, those players doubled as running back and/or quarterbacks. Jan Stenerud is the only pure kicker in the hall. George Blanda also played QB and Lou Groza also played T (and both of them played in the '40s-'70s).

[stevew]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Didnt Ray Guy get in? Or was he a finalist maybe.

No, and he will never get in. Lecher is the Raiders punter with the most realistic chance. And he will have to be a stud for 10-12 more years.

[Matthean]

I know he wasn't in, but this page sure could be read that way.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me...?player_id=262

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by britrock88

Methinks that because he's one-dimensional, Hester will have to be a "far and away"-quality return man to get to Canton.

I'm struggling to figure out what the man would have to do to reach that point.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Nope, and I don't think he's ever gotten close to it. There's only one kicker in the hall and no punters.

EDIT: There are plenty of "pre-modern" players who kicked and punted that are in, but in those cases, those players doubled as running back and/or quarterbacks. Jan Stenerud is the only pure kicker in the hall. George Blanda also played QB and Lou Groza also played T (and both of them played in the '40s-'70s).

And that too I think should be changed. I think, because they play less times, that kickers and return men and other special teamers need to be of a more elite level to get in, but I think that elite level can be reached, has been reached, and should be recognized. And if Hester continues to perform at this level for even just a few seasons more I think he'll have clearly reached that level, hence why I voted yes for should make the HOF. That said I think he'll have to make it via the Veterans Committee (or similar mechanism), if he makes it in at all.

[TRO]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If punters aren't allowed in, kick returners shouldn't be, either.

Punters usually only score for the other team (safeties). KR/PR more directly change the scoreboard.

I'm not sold on Hester as an HoFer yet, but he is certainly worthy of discussion.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by TRO

Punters usually only score for the other team (safeties). KR/PR more directly change the scoreboard.

I'm not sold on Hester as an HoFer yet, but he is certainly worthy of discussion.

Defensive players aren't HoF worthy solely based on how many direct points they score.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

No. Wasn't there a discussion of Daunte Hall at some point?

Hall isn't even remotely close to Hester. Hall's best stretch was a 2 year period where he had 7 TD returns. Hester had 11 in his first 2 years and now has 6 in the last year and a half. Hester now has 17 total to Hall's 12. Also, Hester already has more Receptions, Receiving Yards, and Receiving TD than Hall and he's done all of this in 3 and a half fewer seasons.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

At some point, and it's probably not too far off, he's got a chance to change the thinking about HOF voting for special teams as a whole.

That's the thing - he's a specialist, just as these other guys are specialists. The very best specialists should all be in, or none of them should be. If Deion did nothing but return kicks, he wouldn't, and shouldn't, have been elected.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That's the thing - he's a specialist, just as these other guys are specialists. The very best specialists should all be in, or none of them should be. If Deion did nothing but return kicks, he wouldn't, and shouldn't, have been elected.

I don't agree with this at all. Not all specialists have the same value. A great kick returner obviously has more value than a great long snapper or a great gunner or even a great punter.

[larrymcg421]

And people are acting like Hester does nothing but return kicks. While he's not an elite receiver, he isn't exactly invisible at the position like other great returners like Dante Hall or Desmond Howard. If he ends up with like 400+ catches, 5000+ yards, 20+ Receiving TD and 25 Return TD, I think he should definitely get in.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I don't agree with this at all. Not all specialists have the same value. A great kick returner obviously has more value than a great long snapper or a great gunner or even a great punter.

I think you honor the very best specialists, since special teams is a part of the game.

Whether that means you put in 7 returners/WRs, 2 punters, 2 FG kickers, a Tasker, or what, I don't care what ratio. To keep certain positions out just doesn't fly to me.

[TRO]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Defensive players aren't HoF worthy solely based on how many direct points they score.

That is a fair point. Though it was a big part of the case for Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders who are both at the top of the INT-TD leaderboards.

Defensive players are judged in large part by the way the Offense treats them, or in many cases, avoids them. The more teams kick away from him, the more it will help his case.

I think Hester needs to push towards 20 return TDs to make up for the fact that he is an average (at best) WR.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Which long snapper should we enshrine? Who's the best holder? We're specialized enough in the modern game that the "third down running back" requires a separate skill set than the starter; who gets that bust?

The flip side of Doug's argument - that 80 touches and 5 TDs a season isn't greatness - is that a TD every fifteen touches, when said touchdowns usually require at least 50 yards of running through all eleven opposing players, is so impressive as to merit special consideration outside positional norms. I'm sympathetic to this view provided the rate is upheld for a long career. If Hester is able to retain his moves and speed and play another, say, eight years, and still be breaking off runs as a 36-37 year old, then I'd support his inclusion. Not before.

As soon as there is a long snapper position I'd be for it.

There is a difference between a role and a position. We don't see long snappers named to All-Pro teams or to the All-Star game. You see KR/PR make those teams all the time because it is a recognized position.

EDIT: By recognized I mean by the All-Pro teams and All-Conference teams. I realize that most return men are actually labelled WR, RB, DB, etc.

[General Mike]

No way he makes it.

[stevew]

They actually do elect long snappers to the pro bowl.

[RainMaker]

The scary thing with Hester is his numbers should be even better. When he switched to WR, they sort of started to take him off returns. He didn't return much in 2009 and still splits kick returns with Johnny Knox. So he'd likely have a couple more on his record if he had remained the full time returner.

I don't know if he belongs in the Hall or not. But I do know I've never seen anything like him on a punt return. How he is able to read blocks and predict where defenders will go is uncanny. Watch how patient he is on his returns and the change of speeds and directions. Teams rarely get him lined up for a direct hit.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by stevew

They actually do elect long snappers to the pro bowl.

OK, since 2007. If one stands heads and shoulders above the rest, I'd be fine with it.

[booradley]

Nope. I had to think long and hard about who the f Devin Hester is. If that happens, you don't go to the Hall.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by booradley

Nope. I had to think long and hard about who the f Devin Hester is. If that happens, you don't go to the Hall.

Well, the criteria should be more about whether people will remember him 10-20 years after he retires than right now. If you don't know who Devin Hester is right now, that doesn't reflect on him, it just means you don't know shit about football.

[booradley]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Well, the criteria should be more about whether people will remember him 10-20 years after he retires than right now. If you don't know who Devin Hester is right now, that doesn't reflect on him, it just means you don't know shit about football.

I am the 99%. In other news, you're just the sweetest lil' thing!

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by booradley

I am the 99%. In other news, you're just the sweetest lil' thing!

What does 99 percent mean in your quote? Larry is right though. If you pay attention at all to the NFL you shouldnt have to think about who Devin Hester is.

[jbergey22]

I dont get the comparisons with Hester and a long snapper.

Hester is a playmaker/gamebreaker type talent. He isnt just a kick/punt returner. He is up there with the top 10 playmakers in the NFL.

I dont see how a player that can rip off an 80 yard td as good as anyone in the NFL can be compared to a long snapper.

The Bears dont get to the super bowl a few years back or get to the championship game last year without Hester. Id love to know a long snapper of that importance.

[Coffee Warlord]

Ultimately, he is a game changing player that forces teams to game plan around him, and a player who can, at any time, change the pace of a game. Long snappers, punters, etc don't do that. He is also most likely the best returner the game has ever seen. Hall of fame.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by booradley

Nope. I had to think long and hard about who the f Devin Hester is. If that happens, you don't go to the Hall.

You wouldn't happen to be a Steelers fan, would you?

[Senator]

Yes, he is the best return man to EVER play the game. Ever. And he is 29. It will be great to see how many he ends up with. Football history is my #1 hobby, and we just don't know the greatness in our midst.

As for Ray Guy, he wasn't even the best of his era, much less the best of all time. People are just parroting his name without researching it for themselves. And I actually like Ray Guy and did as a kid.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

idk. who's the number 2 guy? brian mitchell?

i voted yes just because he's such an enigma.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Senator

Yes, he is the best return man to EVER play the game. Ever. And he is 29. It will be great to see how many he ends up with. Football history is my #1 hobby, and we just don't know the greatness in our midst.

As for Ray Guy, he wasn't even the best of his era, much less the best of all time. People are just parroting his name without researching it for themselves. And I actually like Ray Guy and did as a kid.

Actually he was a finalist in 08 so the "parroting his name without researching it for themselves" is false.

[Senator]

When he is 68th all time for punt average, can't help but meh.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Senator

When he is 68th all time for punt average, can't help but meh.

I agree

Im sure it was longevity and reputation. And you were sort of right that I didnt really research it but I did recall(I thought) him being a finalist a few years back. I had to look it up after the first few comments to check on it.

[booradley]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

You wouldn't happen to be a Steelers fan, would you?

I am a Cowboys fan. I have no shame. What?

[booradley]

And another thing, now that I've had a couple beers. I never said I had to look Devin up on Wikipedia - I got it. Just took me a moment's hesitation before I pulled the trigger. That's the problem. He's an impact player in his time, but you wanna put him in the stratosphere of Dan Marino, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, Mike Ditka ... F'in God, no. That's right - I said it. And I'm a good Catholic.

Out.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by booradley

I am a Cowboys fan. I have no shame. What?

Never mind, then.

[ColtCrazy]

There's been return men you had to game plan for before. Dante Hall had a couple of great years. I remember Mel Gray having some great years. But Hester has now been one you have had to plan against for more than a couple of years. He has the NFL return records. He's won games for the Bears alone and you could argue they don't make the Super Bowl without him in 06. I say he gets in. The Bears have had some good years and I think him along with Urlacher are HOF bound.