Football sims dead?

[MarBaSxx]

Hasnt been anything new in years...i really liked Bowl Bound from Greydog but its been like 5 years since that came out and no updates in a few years...really a major void in the market imho

[Pumpy Tudors]

yea thats what i been sayin man

[MJ4H]

2D overheard live view needed. Everyone knows that's the next step, no one with the guts to try it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

2D overheard live view needed. Everyone knows that's the next step, no one with the guts to try it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Absolute truth. We need a FM interface for a football game. Would be fantastic. It'll happen at some point.

[sovereignstar v2]

how about a game where the ai good?

[EagleFan]

nonsense, there is a great football sim out there... FM 2011

[Mota]

Console games are encroaching on text sim territory. If text sims don't do the same and add some sort of presentation to the spreadsheet, they're (and by that I mean already have been) crushed.

[QuikSand]

Well, since we're going to have this conversation again, it seems...

If we could take the FB Pro 98 (yes, nineteen-ninety-eight) engine for on-screen game play...

(possibly with some of the manual ratings changes like those from the VPNFL group)

...and add in even an intermediate stage of skill development and salary/finances from the FOF game...

You would have one heck of a game right there. It is really amazing that people continue to think of this as being so far out of reach. It obviously isn't. There might not be the market to support it (or to pay the salaries of the tech people necessary, more specifically) -- but this could be done. Seriously, if Jim Gindin had just walked in the door of Sierra studies at the right time and offered the front office management side of things to that game, we could have had an awful lot of the game we still want 10-12 years ago.

[EagleFan]

Someone had to mention FB Pro, that brings up bad memories. 99 was sounding like the holy grail of football games; only to be one steaming pile of **** (how depressing that was).

[MJ4H]

I don't think it is in any way out of reach. I don't even think it would be that hard to do for people with the skill and time.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I had no idea you could still download and play the old FB Pro games, but evidently you can.

FBPRO-Online

[AgustusM]

Head Coach 2009 was a game with a ton of potential (and some brutally embarrassing flaws)

I will never understand when a company like EA will dedicate the resources but then market a game so poorly AND abandon it so quickly.

I do have some hope for Madden this year because the franchise was redone by the Head Coach guy. However my long memory is mitigating my excitement because EA has so consistently gotten thing 75% right.

I would love an American Football game with the depth and quality of FM, but man would I miss my wife and kids when they left me.

[Young Drachma]

Once there's enough money in it to make it worthwhile, I'm sure there will be a better one. It's all about timing and opportunity.

[larrymcg421]

Head to head playcalling for multiplayer leagues. That is the feature I have been craving the most.

[ShaneTheMaster]

I know i could make one, but have no easy way of getting either decent 3d models w/ canned animations, or prerendered animated images for 2d.

I suspect this is the roadblock for other developers, as well.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by ShaneTheMaster

I know i could make one, but have no easy way of getting either decent 3d models w/ canned animations, or prerendered animated images for 2d.

I suspect this is the roadblock for other developers, as well.

Even just using X's and O's (a la the old XOR game) to visually display each play would be a big step forward for the text sims.

[MJ4H]

Yes, colored circles or squares is all that's necessary. The FM 2D engine is pretty much ideal.

[flounder]

I'd love to contribute to an open source project for this, but I don't have enough time to start one up on my own. I already have two other side projects plus work.

[Groundhog]

And yet again it is worth mentioning that out of all the major sports except maybe baseball, American Football would have to be the easiest to model in live 2D.

[MJ4H]

i know rite

[Mota]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Yes, colored circles or squares is all that's necessary. The FM 2D engine is pretty much ideal.

Agree 100%. FM 2D engine started as circles on a pitch. Then over several years it became what it is now, which is pretty darn nice looking.

You gotta start somewhere though. Draft Day Sports is doing it, Eastside Hockey Manager did it. You start simple, hopefully capture a new market that was previously unsatisfied, and then build from there.

[JimboJ]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Yes, colored circles or squares is all that's necessary. The FM 2D engine is pretty much ideal.

You mean like this?

Professional Football Simulator - Sample Play Viewer

[MJ4H]

Yeah I think last time I tried that one it had a long ways to go.

[JimboJ]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Yeah I think last time I tried that one it had a long ways to go.

I haven't tried it myself yet, but I intend to check it out. Looks like the developer is committed to improving the game, since he releases regular updates.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by JimboJ

You mean like this?

Professional Football Simulator - Sample Play Viewer

I'm interested in this one for sure, has anyone tried it yet?

If I get some time this weekend, I think I'll try the demo out.

[JPhillips]

I wish the guy luck, but the PbP isn't there yet.

[SteveMax58]

I tried PFS a while back so I'm sure it is much improved since then...but it did have a long ways to go at that time. Promising start...but had a little ways to go.

I was also concerned that his focus was more on multi-player leagues. MP is great and all but my concern is that the single player version ends up with such drastic AI exploits that it isnt fun unless you play MP & I enjoy ripping thru multiple seasons in a sitting sometimes (or at least the choice to go at my own pace).

But I think its probably the most promising game out there & the guy seems to be a pretty solid developer so far in terms of making progress quickly. I think I'll try it out again soon.

[Ben E Lou]

I tried PFS a while back. Just tried it agian a few minutes ago. Ran a full draft.

1. My team only has 3 DTs. Game says I need 4. No problem, right? I'll just sign a scrub from the FA pool.

WRONG!!!! No DTs are in the FA pool. Awesome.

2. I don't like the FB I got. There's another crappy one in the FA pool. Drafted by no one. I'll just sign him, right?

WRONG!!!! His asking price is over 6M per year.

3. Surely he'll accept less than that because no one's gonna pay it, right? So I offer him minsal. That'll work, right?

WRONG!!!! An AI-run team gave him $7.2M per year.

PFS, I'll check you out again in a few months.

[SteveMax58]

Yep...those are the types of things I found as well Ben.

I ran a draft to start as well. I had teams taking QBs in the first 2 rounds or HBs in the first 2 rounds type of stuff. Those might have been glaring enough to correct by now but that just tells you there are so many more logic issues to find & correct that it would be too frustrating to play & enjoy for me. I'd fell like I was bug-hunting the whole time.

And I'm of the opinion that a game like this, that doesn't annoy me with regularity, might cost $50+ due to the limited market. Hell, $80+ would be well worth it if it had the right features & was solid.

[Ben E Lou]

The reports look wonderful. It has potential, but some serious issues need to be worked out before I can take it too seriously.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. Major problems with the stats exports. GS/22 comes out to 581.2. And Total Wins and Total Losses aren't equal. Obviously some stuff is missing and/or incorrect.

[Ben E Lou]

All flat contracts, no bonuses, and no renegs? Really? Ouch.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

All flat contracts, no bonuses, and no renegs? Really? Ouch.

So, the FOBL probably isn't for you?

[wade moore]

I'm with Ben. There seems to be a lot of promise with the reports, options, etc. And, thankfully, the sim stats actually seem pretty solid for a young game.

So, I'll keep my eye on it for sure, especially since he seems to be updating it constantly.

[Toddzilla]

I don't know why, after watching that demo and seeing all 3 WRs book-it downfield with no one covering them, that you'd download it with any hope of a decent game.

Seriously, what's David Winter up to?

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I don't know why, after watching that demo and seeing all 3 WRs book-it downfield with no one covering them, that you'd download it with any hope of a decent game.

Seriously, what's David Winter up to?

Yeah, that's a bizarre choice for a video to post to promote a game.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I
2. I don't like the FB I got. There's another crappy one in the FA pool. Drafted by no one. I'll just sign him, right?

WRONG!!!! His asking price is over 6M per year.

3. Surely he'll accept less than that because no one's gonna pay it, right? So I offer him minsal. That'll work, right?

WRONG!!!! An AI-run team gave him $7.2M per year.

PFS, I'll check you out again in a few months.

C'mon, it's simple supply and demand, Ben!

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I don't know why, after watching that demo and seeing all 3 WRs book-it downfield with no one covering them, that you'd download it with any hope of a decent game.

Seriously, what's David Winter up to?

In-game seems solid from what I was using. The sim engine could be the strongest element of this game right now.

[MJ4H]

Looks like the circles could be smaller. This screenshot shows that we aren't going to see much of the action on the lines like this:

[wade moore]

Yeah.. the OL and DL definitely just meld in together on this.

TBH, the 2d view isn't a major selling point for me, so I'm not going to over analyze that too much.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I tried PFS a while back. Just tried it agian a few minutes ago. Ran a full draft.

1. My team only has 3 DTs. Game says I need 4. No problem, right? I'll just sign a scrub from the FA pool.

WRONG!!!! No DTs are in the FA pool. Awesome.

2. I don't like the FB I got. There's another crappy one in the FA pool. Drafted by no one. I'll just sign him, right?

WRONG!!!! His asking price is over 6M per year.

3. Surely he'll accept less than that because no one's gonna pay it, right? So I offer him minsal. That'll work, right?

WRONG!!!! An AI-run team gave him $7.2M per year.

PFS, I'll check you out again in a few months.

Ok then...

Damn I hope a FOF 2k12 is just around the corner.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by wade moore

YTBH, the 2d view isn't a major selling point for me, so I'm not going to over analyze that too much.

Yeah, at the risk of going against the grain here, I don't really care if my football strategy sim has graphical representation of the plays. I played FOF and TCY because of the sim aspects of being the coach/GM/AD; I wouldn't want the excellent game sim Jim has written to be compromised in order to communicate effectively with a 2D playback scheme.

[SteveMax58]

I can go either way on the 2d side. I think a modern football sim should strive for it at some point, but I don't have to have it (or have it perfectly) on day 1.

But I do have to have (somewhat) believable CPU roster management, no blackhole gamekillers (like the DT issue Ben noted above), and stats that fall within the realm of reality.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Yeah, at the risk of going against the grain here, I don't really care if my football strategy sim has graphical representation of the plays.

+1 (and then some)

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Yeah, at the risk of going against the grain here, I don't really care if my football strategy sim has graphical representation of the plays. I played FOF and TCY because of the sim aspects of being the coach/GM/AD; I wouldn't want the excellent game sim Jim has written to be compromised in order to communicate effectively with a 2D playback scheme.

So, so, so disagree. It doesn't have to be a great 2d, but 2d would add so much immersion in the game, it isn't funny. Football is very much a visual sport. Without graphics, every game I've played has been "eh."

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. I never even saw the video. Just watched it. Yeah, I agree with Rizon: really bad choice of 2D plays to "showcase" the feature. Honestly, that choice really makes me wonder if this game will ever be close to what it could be. If the people in charge make decisions like that, then, well... That said, in the time I spent with the game this morning, I never opened a 2D screen. 2D is a feature that's pretty much on par with calling every play: completely dead to me. Solevision at "Faster" speed is as slow as I can handle it. And that's only in MP. I don't need any sort of in-game representation for SP. I rarely look at game logs when I play SP.

FPS appears to have many of the reports I want. (Heck, in some places it looks like someone was looking at the StelmackSoft and BELCO reports and giving this dude ideas. ) As Wade says, it appears to have potential. I'm thinking that if there's no new FOF by Christmas, I'll pick this up and give the developer a lot of feedback when I have a good chunk of free time to play over the break.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Yeah, at the risk of going against the grain here, I don't really care if my football strategy sim has graphical representation of the plays. I played FOF and TCY because of the sim aspects of being the coach/GM/AD; I wouldn't want the excellent game sim Jim has written to be compromised in order to communicate effectively with a 2D playback scheme.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

So, so, so disagree. It doesn't have to be a great 2d, but 2d would add so much immersion in the game, it isn't funny. Football is very much a visual sport. Without graphics, every game I've played has been "eh."

I've always thought it would be cool to have 2d graphics. But I never thought about how that would display on the O/D line, which comes out awful.

I wonder if there is a way to make it display better. Maybe start the play with a wide view of the field so you can see player alignment, then switch to a zoom for the O/D lines. Or make the icons smaller. I dunno. Just the lines alone kills 2d for me totally.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

So, so, so disagree. It doesn't have to be a great 2d, but 2d would add so much immersion in the game, it isn't funny. Football is very much a visual sport. Without graphics, every game I've played has been "eh."

It really depends on what you're looking for and how you play the game. I know we've discussed this in person before, so I understand where you're coming from in wanting to get to know your players. But for me, I'm looking for a career/GM sim, not a coaching sim, so I don't want any development time spent on a feature that I know I'll never use. I'm interested in figuring out how to transition the franchise from one QB to the next and getting the players around him to match his skills, not in whether a particular linebacker gets fooled on the play-action fake more often than I think he should. And with limited gaming time, I'd rather get through two or three seasons in an hour or two session at my computer, not two or three games like I would if I watched every play in 2D.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Rizon

I've always thought it would be cool to have 2d graphics. But I never thought about how that would display on the O/D line, which comes out awful.

I wonder if there is a way to make it display better. Maybe start the play with a wide view of the field so you can see player alignment, then switch to a zoom for the O/D lines. Or make the icons smaller. I dunno. Just the lines alone kills 2d for me totally.

Not to me. If you really convert what you see from 3-d to 2-d, that is basically what you get. Lines locked unless someone breaks out or goes wide. But it does tell you whether linemen are breaking tackles or getting free even if they don't directly affect the play. I would love that.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

It really depends on what you're looking for and how you play the game. I know we've discussed this in person before, so I understand where you're coming from in wanting to get to know your players. But for me, I'm looking for a career/GM sim, not a coaching sim, so I don't want any development time spent on a feature that I know I'll never use. I'm interested in figuring out how to transition the franchise from one QB to the next and getting the players around him to match his skills, not in whether a particular linebacker gets fooled on the play-action fake more often than I think he should. And with limited gaming time, I'd rather get through two or three seasons in an hour or two session at my computer, not two or three games like I would if I watched every play in 2D.

Agree that it is personal style. Games to me are what it is all about. Just going from year to year bores me. I'd rather take a week or two to get through a season than rush through.