Ron Santo, we hardly knew ye

[spleen1015]

RIP Ron. Loved listening to you call Cubs' games.

Ron Santo: Former Chicago Cubs player Ron Santo dead at 70 - chicagotribune.com

[RainMaker]

Oh God. Breaks my heart. Especially since he didn't get into the HOF where he deserves. The guy bled Cubbie blue and was one of the nicest people you could ever meet.

x 10000

[lighthousekeeper]

too young

[Toddzilla]

*cry*

[BYU 14]

RIP

[mauchow]

oh man! wgn radio will never be the same. rip

[markprior22]

Yeah, Ron will be missed. RIP fellow Cub fan...

[Lathum]

Wow, shame.

[Sweed]

Woke up, turned on the tv, and saw this scrolling across the bottom of the espn ticker Very sad.

Part of being a Cub fan, and wanting to see them win a WS, was wanting to see Santo's reaction. Just a good guy you wanted to see good things happen to. Though I am a fan of most of the pro games that's not a feeling I have for many pro athletes. The man was a class act that appreciated, was proud of, and never took for granted that he was a baseball player.

RIP Ron.

[oykib]

It sucks that he passed before he was honored as he deserved his HOF career. As a Yankee fan, I didn't get to hear a lot of Santo. But I understand how you feel from back when the Scooter passed. My heart goes out to all the Cubs fans.

[JediKooter]

RIP in Ron. One of the few I actually enjoyed listening to.

[Neuqua]

Life just isn't fair, he deserved to witness himself go into the HoF. You can tell that was one of the few things he was still living for.

Anyone who has met the man, and sees what he goes through every single day just to get out of bed in the morning has a new appreciation out on life.

RIP Ron.

[Atocep]

Should have been in the HoF long ago. A guy any fan would enjoy listening to.

RIP

[PineTar]

[Toddzilla]

I'm as big a fan of Santo as the next guy (no, actually much much bigger, but anyway), but comparing a guy to the average or median HOF'er is a terrible metric. It is widely acknowledged that there are many players on the HOF who simply don't deserve to be there and their statistics pull the average way down.

However, by any other calcualtion, Santo should have been a shoo-in, and his absence from the HOF devaules both the Hall and the process by which one gets voted in.

[sterlingice]

I loved listening to him and Pat Hughes on WGN radio. I've been listening to him since I was a kid and the pair was still one of my favorite mlb audio selections. They just sounded like baseball to me.

SI

[miami_fan]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I introduce to you HALL OF FAMER, RON SANTO

[RomaGoth]

Well deserved, if not a bit too late.

[miami_fan]

Forgot the link

Chicago Cubs great Ron Santo elected to Baseball Hall of Fame - ESPN Chicago

[spleen1015]

The HoF voters should be ashamed of themselves for letting this go down like it has.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

The HoF voters should be ashamed of themselves for letting this go down like it has.

+1

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

The HoF voters should be ashamed of themselves for letting this go down like it has.

My first thought when I heard the news just now.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Sweed

My first thought when I heard the news just now.

My first thought was that I want to slap the members of the Veterans' Committee. I still want to give them a shot to the kidneys over Buck O'Neil.

[Buccaneer]

While it sucks they couldn't have done it sooner, it's also tragic that the Hall of Very Good is now becoming the Hall of Above Average. Who's next, Chili Davis?

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

While it sucks they couldn't have done it sooner, it's also tragic that the Hall of Very Good is now becoming the Hall of Above Average. Who's next, Chili Davis?

4th all time in homeruns for a switch hitter!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

While it sucks they couldn't have done it sooner, it's also tragic that the Hall of Very Good is now becoming the Hall of Above Average. Who's next, Chili Davis?

I don't understand how people can say this with all the advances in baseball statistics.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

While it sucks they couldn't have done it sooner, it's also tragic that the Hall of Very Good is now becoming the Hall of Above Average. Who's next, Chili Davis?

Go fuck yourself.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

While it sucks they couldn't have done it sooner, it's also tragic that the Hall of Very Good is now becoming the Hall of Above Average. Who's next, Chili Davis?

Chet Lemon?

[stevew]

I can't wait until Gary Gaetti gets in

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by stevew

I can't wait until Gary Gaetti gets in

Or Jim Ray Hart or Deron Johnson or Ken Boyer (at least he's on the list) or any of the other third basemen of the 1960's who were regularly elected to the National League all-star team ahead of Santo.

What all Santo-heads always overlook is that in his day he was never considered the best third baseman in the NL. Never.

[RainMaker]

None of them match up to Santo statistically. Santo was arguably the 2nd best hitting 3b when he retired of all-time. A lot os saber guys put him currently 6th all-time at the position.

Remember that 3B wasnt't a big hitting position through his time.

[Toddzilla]

haters gonna hate

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

Or Jim Ray Hart or Deron Johnson or Ken Boyer (at least he's on the list) or any of the other third basemen of the 1960's who were regularly elected to the National League all-star team ahead of Santo.

What all Santo-heads always overlook is that in his day he was never considered the best third baseman in the NL. Never.

Then who was considered the best in the NL, asshat?

Santo was an all star 9 times, and a starter 5 times.

He was, in fact, in his day considered the best 3rd baseman in the majors except for Brooks Robinson

So go eat a bowl of dicks

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Go fuck yourself.

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Then who was considered the best in the NL, asshat?

Santo was an all star 9 times, and a starter 5 times.

He was, in fact, in his day considered the best 3rd baseman in the majors except for Brooks Robinson

So go eat a bowl of dicks

I am on your side in this but you seem a little agitated.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I am on your side in this but you seem a little agitated.

I have to admit that I get pretty upset when I see Chili Davis' name, too. Fuck Chili Davis.

[Toddzilla]

VERY agitated. I knew Ron to some degree, so I'm kinda sensitive about it.

[Subby]

Lest I be told to go fuck a goat or something, I am not really keyed into the Santo debate. A qucik search has Neyer in his corner. I looked at BBREF though and seems like he fell short a little - and I thought the similarity scores were pretty interesting:

Hall Of Fame Statistics

Player rank in (·)

Black Ink	Batting - 11 (216), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink	Batting - 147 (91), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor	Batting - 88 (196), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards	Batting - 41 (148), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Similarity Scores

Explanation of Similarity Scores

Similar Batters View Similar Player Links in Pop-up Compare Stats to Similars Dale Murphy (875) Gary Gaetti (875) Ken Boyer (874) Ruben Sierra (865) Chili Davis (865) Bobby Bonilla (863) Brian Downing (862) Graig Nettles (860) Scott Rolen (857) Adrian Beltre (855)

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

VERY agitated. I knew Ron to some degree, so I'm kinda sensitive about it.

Which, to be fair, makes you probably not the best person to defend Santo's qualifications for the HOF, especially if you want to present cold, hard stats.

(For what it's worth, I do think he's deserving.)

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Subby

Lest I be told to go fuck a goat or something, I am not really keyed into the Santo debate. A qucik search has Neyer in his corner. I looked at BBREF though and seems like he fell short a little - and I thought the similarity scores were pretty interesting:

In Santo's defence, looking at the similarity scores:

- none of his most similar players are actually very similar; the best match is 875, and one of the two people with that score played a different position.

- he was pretty clearly a better player than just about everyone on that list. He has the highest OPS+ of the group, and as a good defensive third baseman was far more valuable in the field than any of the corner outfielders on there. The only three players who were defensive pluses and could hit anywhere near Santo's level are Dale Murphy, Ken Boyer, and Scott Rolen; all three played fewer games than Santo (over 200 fewer, for Boyer and Rolen), and all three are at least fringey Hall of Fame candidates in their own right.

So when you go looking for comparable players to Santo, it's hard to find anybody like him and then the players you do find tend to be either slightly worse and possessed of a HoF case in their own right or clearly, significantly worse. That's not a killer argument in favor of Santo going in, but it certainly doesn't disqualify him.

The very short version of the case for Santo is suggested by his list of comparables - he was a good defensive third baseman who hit like a corner outfielder, and those were incredibly rare before Brett and Schmidt came along. Even with those two counted in, there are still only half a dozen or so players who've outhit Santo in a lengthy career at third base. At the point he retired, he was among the top five bats ever at his position and an above-average fielder; anyone who could make that kind of claim after 1950 or so should be in the Hall.

[Toddzilla]

Go fuck a goat....

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I have to admit that I get pretty upset when I see Chili Davis' name, too. Fuck Chili Davis.

Just fuck Chili's! (Their food always makes my stomach hurt afterwards)

[Buccaneer]

Toddzilla, stop acting like a 5 yr old and grow up.

So there.

[RainMaker]

Santo had a couple problems.

-What he did best wasn't valuable back then to writers. He scores incredibly well with advanced statistics but not so much on your old-school ones. He was at the top of the leaderboard in walks almost every year yet no one cared about OBP back then.

-He became eligible right as we got a surge of hitting 3B enter the league.

-Didn't have as long a career as modern players

Good numbers breakdown for him.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=12525
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=15609

[RainMaker]

Santo had a couple problems.

-What he did best wasn't valuable back then to writers. He scores incredibly well with advanced statistics but not so much on your old-school ones. He was at the top of the leaderboard in walks almost every year yet no one cared about OBP back then.

-He became eligible right as we got a surge of hitting 3B enter the league.

-Didn't have as long a career as modern players

Good numbers breakdown for him.

Baseball Prospectus | One-Hoppers: The Snubbed Cub: Ron Santo (1940-2010)
Baseball Prospectus | BP Unfiltered: Overdue Justice: Cooperstown Finds Room for Santo

[RomaGoth]

You only had to post it once dude.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Katon

In Santo's defence, looking at the similarity scores:

- none of his most similar players are actually very similar; the best match is 875, and one of the two people with that score played a different position.

- he was pretty clearly a better player than just about everyone on that list. He has the highest OPS+ of the group, and as a good defensive third baseman was far more valuable in the field than any of the corner outfielders on there. The only three players who were defensive pluses and could hit anywhere near Santo's level are Dale Murphy, Ken Boyer, and Scott Rolen; all three played fewer games than Santo (over 200 fewer, for Boyer and Rolen), and all three are at least fringey Hall of Fame candidates in their own right.

So when you go looking for comparable players to Santo, it's hard to find anybody like him and then the players you do find tend to be either slightly worse and possessed of a HoF case in their own right or clearly, significantly worse. That's not a killer argument in favor of Santo going in, but it certainly doesn't disqualify him.

The very short version of the case for Santo is suggested by his list of comparables - he was a good defensive third baseman who hit like a corner outfielder, and those were incredibly rare before Brett and Schmidt came along. Even with those two counted in, there are still only half a dozen or so players who've outhit Santo in a lengthy career at third base. At the point he retired, he was among the top five bats ever at his position and an above-average fielder; anyone who could make that kind of claim after 1950 or so should be in the Hall.

[cody8200]

I always heard that a lot of those Veterans Committee guys were pissed because you aren't supposed to show you wanted to be in the Hall of Fame so they kept voting against him. That total BS. Oh well, justice was served. Too bad he's not around to enjoy it.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Toddzilla, stop acting like a 5 yr old and grow up.

So there.

Yeah, be like a curmudgeon who complains every time someone gets voted into the Hall of Fame

If you want, use the following words: era, overrated, high standards, and then some random musings about "not best on team", "not best at position", and "not best in league" and voila, instant "Hall of Very Good" post generator

SI