Paul Shirley criticizes Haitian relief effort

[Galaxy]

Former NBAer criticizes Haitian relief efforts - NBA News - FOX Sports on MSN

[kingfc22]

Wow!

[BishopMVP]

He goes a little too far at times, and puts it way too bluntly for most people, but I have no problem with most of his points - and in fact I think I've explicitly stated the exact same thing about New Orleans before. (A tenuous analogy) but it's the same problem I have with most environmentalists - they are so obsessed with preserving (or in haiti's case, returning to) the status quo they don't want to acknowledge that the status quo wasn't a good situation to begin with.

I also have no problem with ESPN firing him - he's there for an extremely minor readership and has the potential to cause way too much backlash.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Shirley, you can't be serious!

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm not going to get involved in discussing Shirley's comments, but his book "Can I Keep My Jersey?" is pretty good.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

He goes a little too far at times, and puts it way too bluntly for most people, but I have no problem with most of his points - and in fact I think I've explicitly stated the exact same thing about New Orleans before.

I agree, I have said for years that we should stop putting money towards rebuilding California after Earthquakes or fighting fires that are a key part of its ecology/geography. They chose to live there, they should deal with it themselves or move away.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

I agree, I have said for years that we should stop putting money towards rebuilding California after Earthquakes or fighting fires that are a key part of its ecology/geography. They chose to live there, they should deal with it themselves or move away.

California is worth 11 Louisianas. This country worships money.

[chadritt]

How frequently would something have to happen to disqualify you from aid though? I dont want to go through a 7.0 quake in california and just hear "wow, you totally shouldve seen THAT coming.....hope your state saved a lot of money" Not to mention the fact that quakes of that magnitude arent exactly common, though smaller ones clearly are.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Let me make a promise to you guys. I will be happy to discuss this is capsicum gets unbanned and shares her thoughts.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Let me make a promise to you guys. I will be happy to discuss this is capsicum gets unbanned and shares her thoughts.

Man, I miss her. She was like a candle in the wind...

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

California is worth 11 Louisianas. This country worships money.

The gulf bleeds money. And more profits would be made of it (and Katrina situation would have never happened) if the wetlands had been taken care of properly like people here have been calling for for decades. But people elsewhere don't take the time to care about important issues in places like Louisiana (when time needs to be taken to be informed, before 2005 and after 200?). Its a lot easier to care/report about California.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Man, I miss her. She was like a candle in the wind...

[JPhillips]

Funny how he doesn't mention centuries of payments to the French government that left Haiti near bankrupt for much of it's existence or foreign governments interfering in Haitian politics for much of the twentieth century.

Of course if it makes him feel good to keep a lock on his wallet while children are dying from treatable injuries and disease, I guess he's got that going for him.

[Arles]

I don't think we can ever use a "US standard of living" as an expectation for foreign aid. Haiti was in a tough spot before the tragedy, but that's no reason to sit idly by and watch them suffer when one hits.

If you want to use US government support funds with restrictions on them cleaning up their country and government, that's fine. But if private people or aid groups like the red cross want to help care for people injured and without homes (with no strings), I don't see the reason to belittle them for it.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

I agree, I have said for years that we should stop putting money towards rebuilding California after Earthquakes or fighting fires that are a key part of its ecology/geography. They chose to live there, they should deal with it themselves or move away.

Hell I guess the same goes for those that deal with Blizzards, Hurricanes, and Tornadoes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hey, you're only 4 hours late
Earthquake in Haiti - Page 2 - Front Office Football Central

[Greyroofoo]

I don't think the US government should send any aid to Haiti. This country is over 10 trillion dollars (and quickly rising) in debt and we have enough poor people in this country.

[JPhillips]

Rescue and recovery is a lot different than economic aid. When people are dying and we have the capability to help refusing to do so is morally unacceptable.

[Abe Sargent]

I like a public figure speaking his mind against the crowd for logical reasons, even if I may disagree wit the logic.

[cartman]

Damn, I was hoping the title was a typo and it was Kiss' Paul Stanley doing the criticizing.

[Young Drachma]

He's been on the brink of this for a bit. Last week, he writes a piece on MLK day that says in short:

As I’ve finished this column, it has occurred to me that this will be posted the day after Martin Luther King Jr. Day. I hate Martin Luther King Jr. Day. I think it’s a divisive holiday. Instead of celebrating an intelligent man who happened to be black, there are those (and they are many) who would have us celebrate MLK because he’s a black man who happened to be intelligent.

I’m no great spokesman for race relations; many of the black men around whom I’ve spent time shared a seething dislike for me that had me checking my pockets to make sure I hadn’t stolen something from them. As a result, I have my own built-in prejudices and idiosyncrasies.

I have learned this, however: The more time we spend trying to divide people up, the less progress is made.

But it is what it is. He probably knew it was coming and went out guns blazing. Maybe FOX Sports can hire him alongside Jason Whitlock or something.

The best response I saw was on a blog earlier today:

The argument isn't worth much. But you should read it, in the way you'd watch an episode of Real Housewives Of Atlanta. The show works by assembling a cast of people who think they're monied elite, and then allowing them to exhibit all the reasons why they are neither monied nor elite. It's funny to watch some idiot run up a 25k credit card bill--on camera--and then stare at you as though you should be impressed.

Ditto for Paul Shirley. He thinks he's saying something profound and contrarian, when really his column is pedestrian and callow. Like Real Housewives, it's his self-delusion that's intoxicating; his impressive brew, not just of ignorance, not just of ignorance of one's own ignorance, but of mistaking his ignorance for a kind of savvy.

If you're angry at Shirley, you're doing it all wrong. If you're calling for Shirley to never write for ESPN again, you're doing it all wrong. You should be laughing. Paul Shirley doesn't deserve your rage--better men than him have worked harder and longer to earn your rage. He deserves your mockery.

[JPhillips]

TNC is one of my favorite bloggers.

[RainMaker]

It's amazing how delusional these people can be. Paul Shirley is where he is in life purely based on luck. Luck that he was born in a country that had a strong infrastructure. Luck that he was essentially a genetic freak who grew to a height that is sought after by NBA teams. If Paul Shirley had been born in Haiti, he'd be struggling right now or dead.

I don't have a problem with people not wanting to support specific causes and feeling things could be done different ways. But it is just fucking elitist to stand there and act as if Haiti's issues are simple to solve and that if you were there, none of this would have happened.

[MrBug708]

You have way too much anger, at least on message boards Rainmaker. Just something I've noticed over the past 12 months or whatever

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

The gulf bleeds money. And more profits would be made of it (and Katrina situation would have never happened) if the wetlands had been taken care of properly like people here have been calling for for decades. But people elsewhere don't take the time to care about important issues in places like Louisiana (when time needs to be taken to be informed, before 2005 and after 200?). Its a lot easier to care/report about California.

BS - CA (overall w/taxapayers) is a net contributor to the federal budget as compared to say, I dunno most of the South or LA.

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/m...sAndTakers.JPG

and An older article (from 2002), but fyi:

http://psweb.sbs.ohio-state.edu/facu...cy-OSUConf.PDF

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

BS - CA (overall w/taxapayers) is a net contributor to the federal budget as compared to say, I dunno most of the South or LA.

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/m...sAndTakers.JPG

and An older article (from 2002), but fyi:

http://psweb.sbs.ohio-state.edu/facu...cy-OSUConf.PDF

I didn't say Louisiana/gulf coast could compete in measurable capital with California, that would be stupid. I just said the gulf bleeds money. The gulf has lots of oil, and the largest number of offshore platforms are off the coast of Louisiana.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

I didn't say Louisiana/gulf coast could compete in measurable capital with California, that would be stupid. I just said the gulf bleeds money. The gulf has lots of oil, and the largest number of offshore platforms are off the coast of Louisiana.

Its a relative measure - not an absolute - it means for every dollar CA puts, it gets less back - meanwhile, the opposite is true in LA. Your point is demonstrably false here.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Funny how he doesn't mention centuries of payments to the French government that left Haiti near bankrupt for much of it's existence or foreign governments interfering in Haitian politics for much of the twentieth century.

Of course if it makes him feel good to keep a lock on his wallet while children are dying from treatable injuries and disease, I guess he's got that going for him.

And Europe and France are complaining about the U.S. in Haiti:

Europe Grumbles About Backseat Role in Haiti - Yahoo! News

[JPhillips]

I don't give a shit if Europe is upset. People are in desperate need of food, water and medical treatment. We can help alleviate those problems right now.

There's a time for discussions of where Haiti goes and honestly I wish Obama would lay that out in a much clearer way, but right now our actions can directly save tens of thousands of lives. To say no because the Haitian government has been tyrannical and incompetent is unconscionable.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Funny how he doesn't mention centuries of payments to the French government that left Haiti near bankrupt for much of it's existence or foreign governments interfering in Haitian politics for much of the twentieth century.

Pretty much every country in the Western Hemisphere has a history of slavery and foreign domination, yet Haiti was far and away the poorest in the Western Hemisphere. There was a lot more wrong with Haiti even compared to its Caribbean contemporaries before the quake.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Rescue and recovery is a lot different than economic aid. When people are dying and we have the capability to help refusing to do so is morally unacceptable.

There are a lot of poor people starving and homeless in a lot of countries. We should pay inordinate attention to Haitians because.... they had a recent highly publicized tragedy happen to them? How are the Indonesians and others affected by the tsunami doing now?

And if you want to talk "rescue and recovery"... there are hundreds of thousands of people dying of hunger and thirst while millions is being spent on the desperate hope to find 1 more person trapped in the rubble. But that's the typical misguided allocation of resources Joseph Stalin best summed up when he said one death was a tragedy and a million was a statistic.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's amazing how delusional these people can be. Paul Shirley is where he is in life purely based on luck. Luck that he was born in a country that had a strong infrastructure. Luck that he was essentially a genetic freak who grew to a height that is sought after by NBA teams. If Paul Shirley had been born in Haiti, he'd be struggling right now or dead.

Samuel Dalembert says hi.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I don't give a shit if Europe is upset. People are in desperate need of food, water and medical treatment. We can help alleviate those problems right now.

There's a time for discussions of where Haiti goes and honestly I wish Obama would lay that out in a much clearer way, but right now our actions can directly save tens of thousands of lives. To say no because the Haitian government has been tyrannical and incompetent is unconscionable.

I was just posting that in response to your post in regards to the history of France and Haiti. I just found it strange (not your post, but the article).

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by cartman

Damn, I was hoping the title was a typo and it was Kiss' Paul Stanley doing the criticizing.

At least it wasn't Paulie Shore.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I don't give a shit if Europe is upset. People are in desperate need of food, water and medical treatment. We can help alleviate those problems right now.

actually they do have a point, they (time) just don´t express it as it is´/highlight the important reason why europeans were upset.
I have it from a reliable source (member of a team send there) that the US basically wasted a good 2 days of immediate help by blocking the airport and even strategic places in the dominican republic by sending in soldiers that weren´t trained or equiped to do anything to help anybody, while european (and also american) medical teams and also my friends team delivering water-clearing systems had to make a huge detour by land and had to go into the city without assistance from the US military.
They actually made a request to get help from the US forces allready in the area (aditional transportation and man power) and just flat out didn´t get it, reason being that that "they needed to organise themselves first".

And in the long run a strong military presence doesn´t help anyone. There needs to be a program encouraging the locals to participate in cleaning up (and later rebuilding) the city by getting paid out of the funds created, not the military doing it for them. Might take longer that way, but will help in the long run as it gives them the ability to earn some money and the country as a whole not to get too dependent.
It will also lead to militant groups within the country gaining steam, claiming an american ocupation. Stupid reasoning, i know. But it´s what happens allready.

Paul Shirley there made a stupid, nay idiotic statement. It also is not logical. He makes the common mistake of small-minded people : Blaming someone for "outer circumstances" as well as for mistakes being made by previous generations or rather : By certain important people in previous generations.

It´s like saying "the US shouldn´t be part of anything because they acted against human rights when killing the indians", or "america is a terrible country now because 65 years ago they threw the atomic bomb" or "america is racist because there´s racist people in it" or like saying "Paul Shirley didn´t make the NBA because he didn´t work hard enough".

Has Haiti been led by people that made bad decicions ? Yeah, of course.
But that doesn´t change the fact that 99% of the people struck by the earthquake never had anything to do with the development of the country.

No one blames the american people (non-business-leaders) for the economic crisis, do they ?


Of course every country should just stick to themselves, the wealthy countries could just let the poor countries rot in their own blood and dirt. Maybe once they are all gone we can settle them, wouldn´t that be a nice idea ?

Anybody really think the overall situation would improve in america just by not spending money elsewhere ? Whoa, time to take another course on global markets.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by whomario

Of course every country should just stick to themselves, the wealthy countries could just let the poor countries rot in their own blood and dirt. Maybe once they are all gone we can settle them, wouldn´t that be a nice idea ?

Anybody really think the overall situation would improve in america just by not spending money elsewhere ? Whoa, time to take another course on global markets.

I guess the question is: What defines wealthy? I mean, we are what, around $12 trillion in debt?

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by whomario

No one blames the american people (non-business-leaders) for the economic crisis, do they ?

Actually a lot people believe the American people who bought more house then they could afford is partly to blame on the economic crisis.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by whomario

I have it from a reliable source (member of a team send there) that the US basically wasted a good 2 days of immediate help by blocking the airport and even strategic places in the dominican republic by sending in soldiers that weren´t trained or equiped to do anything to help anybody

Yeah, anything other than securing the airport. Gosh, that couldn't matter could it? Or did the statements about the lack of security for anyone, including aid workers, simply fly past you?

Aid workers heading to Haiti fear for their safety - CNN.com
"Security now in this particular crisis has already been raised as a major, major issue," said Paul Sherlock, a senior humanitarian representative for Oxfam. ... "Over the last 10, 15, 20 years, the gangs and the drug culture have taken hold of Haiti, and that is why over the last four to five years, the United Nations has been trying to administer security in the capital and all the provincial cities as well," he said.

Nongovernmental organization workers "have not been using public transport or taxis because of the security risk they face. International aid workers certainly didn't." ... Aid workers on their way to Haiti now are not sure how to ensure their safety, he said. Some are "probably using U.N. military as escorts, but many NGOs are uncomfortable using any military escort. They have been going to the police, but I don't know, after what has happened, whether the police are in any better position to provide it."

Now why could that airport possibly matter? Hmm, could it have been important for bringing in materials that the Haitian government requested?

Haitian Ambassador to the United States Raymond Joseph told CNN on Thursday that his country's communication system was heavily damaged, so he had not received much new information about the situation there.

"The major thing is that help is starting to arrive, but we have a problem with the roads," he said in a phone interview from Washington. "Now we are asking for help from the U.S. government to clear the roads, so the first groups ... the Marines are bringing heavy equipment."

Gosh, could it possibly have been important to secure the airport in order to get that heavy equipment into the country? Or was the good fucking fairy going to just magically *poof* it into place?

Heck, who needs the U.S. military, the U.N. forces can handle it. Oh, wait, their forces on the ground were pretty well decapitated since their peacekeepers HQ was destroyed by the quake with nearly 100 or so of their leadership trapped in the rubble dead or injured.

Well hell, who needs the U.S. heavy equipment, just put the locals to work right? With what, shovels & some sticks?


Aid workers in Haiti face 'logistical nightmare' - Nation/World - NewsObserver.com

But to find and save people, the rescuers need heavy machinery to lift tons of rubble - equipment that teams from places like Britain and Iceland have, but others don't

Haiti has virtually none of those machines but aid workers were trying to get some into Haiti from the Dominican Republic, Charles Vincent of the World Food Program said.

Oh to heck with that, just get the aid to those poor victims. Logistics, who needs logistics?

"It is difficult because folks at the Port-au-Prince airport are trying to get up to speed to run logistics," said Save the Children spokeswoman Kate Conradt from Haiti.

"Donations are coming in to the airport here, but some are coming without notice from very well-meaning groups," she said. "There is not yet a system to get it in."

Oh c'mon, how dangerous can a devastated group of people be, no reason for reasonable people to be worried.

http://www.thetelegraph.com/articles...-security.html

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti (AP) - Aid workers hoping to distribute food, water and other supplies to a shattered Port-au-Prince are warning their efforts may need more security Friday as Haitians grow increasingly desperate and impatient for help.

United Nations peacekeepers patrolling the capital said people's anger is rising that aid hasn't been distributed quickly, and the Brazilian military warned aid convoys to add security to guard against looting. ... The U.N. World Food Program reported Friday that its warehouses in the Haitian capital had been looted since Tuesday's cataclysmic earthquake.


Those damned American soldiers should just mind their own business & let the police handle domestic problems. Oops, that might not work.

Engineers from the U.N. mission have begun clearing some main roads, and law-and-order duties have fallen completely to the mission's 3,000 international troops and police. ... Wimhurst, the mission spokesman, said Haitian police "are not visible at all," no doubt because many had to deal with lost homes and family members. The first U.S. military units to arrive took on a coordinating role at the airport.


Here's a pretty inescapable conclusion: Your "reliable source" is a well intentioned fucking idiot who would do better to avoid trying to deal with with matters that are clearly over his head or ability to comprehend.

No one blames the american people (non-business-leaders) for the economic crisis, do they ?

That's another thread, but yes, at least some of us have discussed more than once the role that the average Joe played in creating quite of few of the components of the economic problems.

[BYU 14]

My son goes to join his unit (who are providing security) tomorrow. They will be ship based so I will be able to communicare with him. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say about the security situation there.