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#1 | |||
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Big Ten Country
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Why American Consumers Can't Add
Since it's a slow day, I'll post this article I found on another forum.
Why American consumers can't add - The Red Tape Chronicles - msnbc.com Quote:
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#2 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
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I think it's 86% school system and 42% family caused.
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We have always been at war with Eastasia. |
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#3 |
High School JV
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dayton, OH
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That's very scary. I try to get my kids to use math as much as possible in stores and restaurants so they can get some "real world" experience, so hopefully they won't be one of these statistics.
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#4 |
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jun 2001
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The sad truth is that 2/3 of all people will become a statistic, and the other half don't realize how close they came to being one too.
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#5 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia
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President Josiah Bartlet: Sweden has a 100% literacy rate, Leo. 100%! How do they do that?
Leo McGarry: Well, maybe they don't and they also can't count.
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Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner |
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#6 |
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
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43.4% of all statistics are made up ... including this one
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#7 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Cary, NC
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Homer Simpson: People can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of all people know that.
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#8 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Diego via Sausalito via San Jose via San Diego
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I use my tip calculator on my phone to be sure I'm not being a dick and leaving too small a tip. I'm usually right and the calculator just gives me an exact number, where I usually just round up.
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I'm no longer a Chargers fan, they are dead to me Coming this summer to a movie theater near you: The Adventures of Jedikooter: Part 4 |
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#9 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Not Delaware - hurray!
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I hate to say this because I'll get accused of being sexist, but I'll just throw this out there anyway.
In GENERAL, women don't like math. In GENERAL, elementary school teachers are women. You do the math. Pun intended.
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She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know? |
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#11 |
College Prospect
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Newcastle, Australia
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A math-magician!
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#12 |
General Manager
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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I've been pushing for a "Life" course to be taught in schools. Teach young people what Mutual Funds, 401Ks, IRAs, etc are. Teach them about credit card interest rates and other daily crap we come across in our life.
The one thing that gets me isn't that there are dumb people who don't get this, but really intelligent people. I have a friend who is a lawyer who didn't know how a 401K worked. Just never got around to learning it I guess. |
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#13 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwest
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Quote:
How dare you want me to have a life and learn things that might be actually important to it!!!!!!!! Think of the children! |
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#14 | |
Stadium Announcer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Burke, VA
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Quote:
We could even call it Home Economics. I'd be all for that.
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I don't want the world. I just want your half. |
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#15 |
General Manager
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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#16 | |
Stadium Announcer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Burke, VA
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Quote:
I don't think they do, and I'm sure most people think of it as cake-baking. It sounds to me like it's time to update it for the 21st century.
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I don't want the world. I just want your half. |
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#17 |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Jersey, USA
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I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes: "Americans are incapable of abstract thought, and make bad coffee." -Georges Clemenceau.
It's a shame that knowing stuff is considered evil (unless it's about the Bible) in many families. Being aware and curious about the world around you is considered to be a nuisance and a habit to be pounded out of a child. "Child-proof" your house, pen in your child all the time, give them toys that do all the imaginative work, keep them busy by completely organizing their lives as they grow up, and then never tell them when they are bad at anything. Being a child-centric always-positive parent probably does more damage than good. (Not that corporal punishment and emotional abuse are any better.) |
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#18 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA
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I heard somewhere that only 2 out of 5 Americans can actually do basic math at a 5th grade level. Those other two people must be morons...
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#19 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwest
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Quote:
Of course teaching people how to cook seems like a very useful skill as well... |
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#20 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwest
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I took a class in college much like this, called Personal Finance, I have said since then that everyone should be required to take it. |
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#21 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia
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My experience with Home Economics is that it's 90% Home, and 10% Economics.
I think a class focused specifically on the latter would be a good idea, especially with strong emphases on credit and debt situations.
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#22 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Wisconsin
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Quote:
![]() I don't consider child-proofing your home to be a bad thing.
__________________
You, you will regret what you have done this day. I will make you regret ever being born. Your going to wish you never left your mothers womb, where it was warm and safe... and wet. i am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you are going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainboooow. But! This rainbow is not just like any other rainbow, its... |
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#23 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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My brother had an awesome example from one of his statistics classes(paraphrased)
"we here at Bob's Appliance Superstore don't like to mess around with hard to understand interest rates. Our financing plan is simple. Pick out a whole house full of appliances. Delivery is quick to your house and free. Just divide the total of your purchase by 10. And then make that every month for a year. I told you our financing was simple!" |
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#24 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Quote:
But it's only as good as how it's taught, how willing the students are to learn, and whether there are any standards about how much is actually gained. So sayeth the guy who had required classes in both in HS (as well as state history) and knows full well how many people laughed their way through those classes without learning a thing. You can lead horses to water ...
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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#25 |
High School JV
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
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Not surprising at all to me. While I am not a math teacher but a Government teacher I must agree that our youth are not prepared to do any kind of math. I am close friends with many of the math teachers and they all say the kids enter high school with a lack of skills and even when they have some skills teachers are forced to teach math concepts that don't have a practical application for many students. In the county I teach we do have a required half year course called Economics and Public Issues. Essentially it does go over practical topics that many students need such as interest, credit cards etc.
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"It can't rain all the time"-The Crow |
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#26 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Prairie du Sac, WI
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My high school had a class called Consumer Economics that pretty well covered everything talked about. Teacher did a pretty good job. Lots of people took the class and he was pretty good with working with dumb people. He was also good at banging the hot guidance counselor behind his wife's back.
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#27 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ashburn, VA
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This thread reminds me of one of my college roommates (let me preface this by saying that she had issues, in general). One day I walked in and found her crying, and asked what was wrong. She proceeded to scream at me that she didn't know how to call and ask a company for an informational interview, now that she'd faxed them her resume. She proceeded to loudly tell me that her friend, a business major, took classes on doing "stuff like this" and it's obvious that Maryland was trying to screw over the gov/pol majors. So I tell her, "It's pretty easy. Just call and say who you are and that you recently faxed your resume and wanted to confirm that they got it and would be interested in setting up an informational interview, if that was possible." She then proceeded to yell at me and ask if they ALSO teach that to physics majors, and why is it so hard for a gov/pol major to learn these things (and then went on a rant about how the world was out to get her...). She graduated with high honors.
I don't know, I don't know that these things need to be taught in schools so much as basic skills should be taught...and, more importantly, encouraged at home, too. I'll be the first to admit that I come from a rather highly educated family (I'm the dumb one), but my mom taught me to balance a checkbook and rectify bank statements when I was about 10. Really, it's just simple math. Tipping, too, is a basic math skill. I don't think you need a special "life" class to teach you that. As for other things, like 401K's and IRAs and such, I didn't really think much about them until I had a job, but it would be nice if employers could provide resources for employees not just to have access to those benefits, but to know what they are and why they're good and how they work. To be quite honest, my mom has been talking to me about retirement saving, etc, since I was a junior in college and I only really started semi-paying attention when I finally had a job and wanted to start my 401K contributions. Taking a "class" on that wouldn't have been something I'd have wasted my time/money/credit hours with in college and isn't really anything much other than simple interest things I learned in middle school math... I agree that there are a lot of stupid people and stupid smart people out there. But then, I think everybody's stupid... /tk
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#28 |
Bonafide Seminole Fan
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Miami
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I smoke to much to do math.
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Subby's favorite woman hater. |
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#29 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Quote:
I guess that's the part I'm having a hard time fathoming. I mean, if they were teaching this stuff in the 80's in the middle of Bugtussle ... In all seriousness, I had what would have to be considered a pretty shitty public school education by most standards even then, much less 25 years later. But this stuff was part & parcel of the curriculum even there & even back then. I know it's taught in high school in Georgia still since I've seen several kids go through it (and largely blow it off) during the past decade or so. Are there actually public school systems* where this kind of thing isn't taught today? *I make that distinction because I realized that my son hasn't seen any of it in class yet and I'm not sure he will, but I'm guessing that's because it's considered a given that his class will be taught that kind of thing at home once they've learned the basic math principles
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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#30 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
We can go one step further than just personal finance. Schools no longer teach shop class either which is a valuable skill even in its most basic level. I'm shocked at how many people can't change their own tire. |
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#31 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Out of Grad School Hell :)
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Quote:
I'm trying to get a 4th Social Studies class added to the curriculum at the school I teach at, and you should have seen the fight at the site based council last month. Me and the band parents. They can't understand why a 4th SS requirement should be allowed, when their children take 8 semesters of band in high school. I went ballistic. Right now we require Geography, World Civ., and US History, and we are trying to add a Civics/Economics class added. It's crazy. |
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#32 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Out of Grad School Hell :)
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Quote:
+ 1,000 |
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#33 | ||
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Quote:
Focusing on the test results isn't something I see as a problem ... IF we're testing the right stuff, which means teaching the right stuff in the first place; i.e. teaching to the test doesn't bother me one bit IF the curriculum requirements are right in the first place. Unfortunately we don't seem to be very good at getting that right consistently either, although I'll concede that it seems to be a moving target. Quote:
Sorry, but I have a hard time criticizing the people who are forced to pay for it. And we saw what decades of having "experts" in charge got us here in Georgia.
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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#34 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
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#35 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hartford
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I interview probably 50 college graduates a year, from some pretty good schools. UConn, UMass, Trinity, Holy Cross, Bentley, Bryant etc...
There are 3 math questions in the interview that we ask. They can write out their answers but can't use calculators. This is a job where probably half the ability to be successful is your ability to work with numbers. The first question is: What is 80% of 120? I swear to you that less then half of graduates from 4 year universities who graduate with finance/business type degrees can not answer that question with just paper and pencil. I would say that only 1 in 5 gets all three answers with no coaching. I dug up the other questions: What is the percentage increase from 200 to 230? If I have 360 out of a potential 400 what percentage do I have? Last edited by lynchjm24 : 12-31-2009 at 07:15 AM. |
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#36 | |||
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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path12 wins, thread over. ![]() Quote:
My simple system works for me (and my limited, though not as limited as the examples in this thread, skills): Good service = 20%. Take 1/10th of the bill before tax, double it, call it a day. Bad service = 10%. Take 1/10th of the bill before tax, call it a day. Horrible service (assuming we've even stayed) = maybe a buck. Really awesome service = double the pre-tax bill, call it a day (OK, I've only done this a handful of times in my life). Quote:
Absolutely. Quote:
Of course, not the way Home Ec generally does it, which is cake-baking. Which is silly, because given the success of, say, the Food Network, it should be relatively easy to put together a fun cooking curriculum. Heck, just show an Alton Brown episode one day, and then make what he made the next day. Of course, I simplify, but still.... |
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#37 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Maryland
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Seems to me that as a society we've been trying to put more of an emphasis on verbal skills for a while. I could be mistaken, but I think 20 years ago when I took the PSAT the calculation for determining National Merit qualifiers was to take the math score plus twice the verbal score. Being stronger at math (at the time, anyway) I didn't really like math being de-emphasized like that. Of course, it could well have been calculated that way to attempt to have more female NMFs.
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#38 |
College Prospect
Join Date: Oct 2001
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College graduates cannot answer lynchjim's questions for a job, that is pretty appalling.
My concern with education and people in general is they seem intolerant of actually TRYING to figure out how things work. They want an 'answer' and don't care if they can cheat to get it, and fail to understand that learning a system for finding answers is the whole point. I know absolutely nothing about a variety of subjects, but if you sat me down in front of a practical problem from that field, say something i'm completely ill-suited for, like advertising... I'd get my ass in there and take it apart into terms I can understand and then knock it out of the park eventually. I wouldn't sit around bitching 'I ain't been trained for this shit'. We got a population of wannabe delegators and no doers anymore, thats why I am slowly considering the majority of American poor dumb cattle that need to be herded for their own protection. |
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#39 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Quote:
I imagine I saw a lot of the reason for that in the workplace back in the 90's. One of the reasons I kept getting promoted into positions that I wasn't "educated" for was (as a boss put it) that I was one of the few people in the company who could actually communicate an idea/concept instead of just describing it with buzzwords that didn't actually mean anything.
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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#40 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Hey, I've attached my resume for your consideration. Plz lemme know if you need some more info. When I was looking for a job out of college, I was really formal. Spell-checked everything and made sure I had perfect grammar. Even in just a quick follow-up e-mail to the person. It's amazing to me how many people send in resumes with mispellings and mistakes on them. It's also amazing that the first thing they want to know about is how much vacation they get and when they can start taking it. |
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#41 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ashburn, VA
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Quote:
Really?! I was the same as you when I was looking for a job; very formal, spell-check, proper grammar, etc. Though I have to say, at least in my industry (I don't see cover letters, I do see resumes, though), that everybody now seems to have 4 or 5 honor societies and things that they think make them stand out, but when you realize that EVERYBODY is in those... What really drives me nuts, when interviewing people, is when they don't use complete sentences, and when it's obvious they haven't done any homework on my company. That was a big rule of thumb even 6 years ago when I started interviewing, to know your audience and prepare for them. That seems to have gone by the wayside. Then again, when I was in the interview process, I used the word "ubiquitous" during an interview and realized when my interviewer said, "I don't know what that means," that I wasn't getting the job. I wonder if at least some of these types of problems stem in part (if not in full) from the helicopter-parenting and the "everybody wins" or "nobody fails" mentality that seems so prevalent (treating kids like precious snowflakes and such) these days. /tk
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#42 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hartford
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Quote:
We don't see them come in the door, they come through human resources and they have somewhat screened them before we even see them. We get what they put into our job site on the internet and it's generally just their resume copied into our format. We do see all the terrible grammar and there are many that are poorly written. I don't usually spend much time on the resumes since we mostly hire kids that are just graduating college and I don't much care about the things that they generally put on there. It's a pretty good entry level position that pays 45-50k but we interview from such a shallow pool it's unbelievable. We have a lot of bad interviews but they generally aren't things like people asking about vacation before they start it's just that they either are so arrogant it's impossible to be in a room with them or they are just so dumb that they can't even answer the questions. The non-math questions fall into the "Can you tell us about a time you worked as part of a group. What were the advantages and what were the disadvantages? How did you handle when someone didn't do their fair share?" category. So I don't even really care about the answer, I just try and figure out if they can communicate. Most of the time I'm just scribbling in a notebook and have an idea 3 minutes in if they are suited for the job or not. Each candidate is interviewed by 4 different people and I always laugh when we discuss who to hire because people will want to make a decision based on a specific answer to a question. I really just try to have a normal conversation and see if they can do the math, because I can teach you how to do the job it's not rocket science. There are a lot of great stories from over the years though. We had this really conservative woman who was pushing for a young male because he paid his way through school by working at a nightclub. She dug up his resume to tell us it was 'Scruples in Bridgeport' We didn't have the heart to tell her that it was a nudie bar, I think that would have ruined his chances. |
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#43 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hartford
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Not knowing anything about the job or the company pretty much forces me to tune out pretty quickly. I actually interviewed the son of a member of our upper management and he had no idea what he was interviewing for. Once I get to that point, I try to see how fast I can get them out of my office.
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#44 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hartford
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Quote:
Ha, we've had guest speakers at our leadership conferences come and teach us how to manage the kids that have been helicopter-parented. I guess Bruce Tulgan is the most 'famous' in the field. His books are ok, but in person he's excellent. |
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#45 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ashburn, VA
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Quote:
HAHAHHAA. I do rocket science, and have not yet asked any math questions when I interview. I have, though, asked situational-type questions, to see how they think on their feet; that is, I bring up hypothetical situations that are similar to ones I've experienced and ask what they'd do to solve the problem. When I interviewed for my job, I was asked some basic electronics questions, in the guise of situational problem-solving, but even then, the answer wasn't as important as the thought process. /tk
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#46 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Not Delaware - hurray!
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Quote:
You know, I wonder if we're the last generation that cares about these things. Certainly this generation is growing up in an age where text-slang is prominent and acceptable. 20-40 years from now - I wonder if this slang will be the norm and the days of completing a thought on paper will be long gone.
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She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know? |
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#47 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
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#48 | |
College Prospect
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: NJ
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Quote:
As a member of the younger generation, I feel as though I need to defend some of my peers. It seems every generation bemoans how the youth of America have become less intelligent, resilient, strong, industrious, polite, etc. without actual proof. On one hand, there are many extraordinarily ambitious college-age students that have performed hours of community service, spent summers at internships, have top-notch grades and test scores--and, most important to many of you, can summarize all these experiences in resumes that will be perfect in every respect. On average, the qualifications of today's students at the "top" undergraduate and graduate schools would by far exceed those at these same schools 20 years ago. And all of these schools have increased the amount of support they provide to these students in these areas--my inbox in both undergraduate and graduate school has been filled with invitations to resume workshops, cover letter seminars, one-on-one proofreading sessions, etc. If anything, I guarantee these students are actually much more overanxious about these types of things than students in the past; I can assure you that many of my classmates live in fear that one misplaced period on a cover letter will ruin their entire career. They would deliver the perfect resumes you guys would hope for. On the other hand, there are also many students that are weeded out from kindergarten and don't receive the same pressure from parents and teachers--and also never put that pressure on themselves. They are allowed to get through school without meeting many of the requirements to be expected as long as some administrator can add them to the graduation rate. However, I also have to assume there were many of these people in past generations--they just didn't necessarily go to college and/or look for the type of jobs in which proper writing on a resume might be required. Today, even marginal high school students have access to college (as long as they can afford it) and many jobs that don't necessarily require you use anything you learn in college--they simply want to see the degree as a signaling device. Many of these students probably would turn in the types of resumes you guys have mentioned, however, in the past resumes from these types of people might never have been turned in at all. I also suspect the weeding out function also relates to the lack of specific skills for many students, failing to give some people the exposure to the broad curriculum you need to be a well-rounded individual. If you have poor Math skills, you're told it's OK as long as your good at English or History or Drama or Music and so on. If you have poor English skills, you're told it's OK as long as you are good at Math. Much like young athletes these days must play one-sport year-round at the expense of playing three or four different ones, students are quickly shunted down a track where they will specialize in one area at the expense of all others. I was always amazed at the lack of writing skills possessed by classmates in business/economics classes and the basic lack of math skills and economic literacy many of my co-workers on the student newspaper had. However, that's not the students' fault--it's rather the fault of the administrators, teachers and parents that designed the school systems. |
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#49 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Not Delaware - hurray!
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I do, however, think this generation is different. We're all hell-bent on "teaching" children self-esteem with the idea that success will come from it, but it's backwards. What we should have been teaching the children is discipline and effort - that's where success and then self-esteem comes from. Why we thought we could give the end-game to the kids and that would "teach" effort is beyond me. Instead, we have a generation of kids who think they're entitled to everything and they deserve only the very best without working for it. They also are entirely fearful of failure because they've been prevented from doing so. This will be a very interesting generation to watch.
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She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know? |
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#50 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
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The massive difference between then and now is families staying together. Both parents at home, both raising the child, both having their strengths in raising the child. Now? Yes, I know there are exceptions to it both then and now but overall, the differences here are MASSIVE.
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