Boxing champ Forrest killed in ATL carjacking

[JonInMiddleGA]

Pro boxer Vernon Forrest fatally shot in Atlanta *| ajc.com

Atlanta police say former professional boxer Vernon “The Viper” Forrest was killed Saturday night in an attempted carjacking, according to a WSB-TV news report.

Police told WSB that Forrest stopped at a gas station to put air in the tire of his Jaguar when he was approached by two men.

Police told the station that Forrest, 38, was shot multiple times and the suspects had semi-automatic weapons.

Last fall, Forrest emphatically reclaimed his WBC 154-pound title, battering Sergio Mora in a lopsided unanimous decision that re-established the 37-year-old veteran as an elite junior middleweight.

Forrest (41-3) had lost his title to Mora in an ugly majority-decision upset June 7, 2008, but the Atlanta native had little trouble sending Mora to the first loss of his career in the mandated rematch. With one knockdown and consistently superior speed, Forrest punished Mora (21-1) in almost every round, winning each scorecard by at least seven points.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Much longer version with more detail, including Forrest's apparent attempt to shoot it out with the would-be thieves.
Police: Three-time WBC champion Vernon Forrest killed in Atlanta shooting - ESPN

[M GO BLUE!!!]

DAMN!

Too many people my age getting killed now. Is his wife suspected at all? (I need to blame women.)

[BYU 14]

Just finished reading this, terribly sad. Vernon was a good guy that did a lot for the community.

A horrible tragedy, I don't know we he would chase and then try and shoot it out with multiple armed assailants? Cars can be replaced, Vernon Forrest can not. RIP

It has been a rough month for boxing fans.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

A horrible tragedy, I don't know we he would chase and then try and shoot it out with multiple armed assailants?

Unless they've updated the story, do we actually know whether he chased them or they chased him? (I'm picturing a possible scenario where he showed his weapon but then had to retreat)

edit to add: I guess the latest version from the AJC sort of answers my question
A male suspect approached Forrest and robbed him of a few items at gunpoint, he said. Forrest, who was also armed, then chased the suspect to an area near McDaniel and Fulton Streets, where the men exchanged gunfire.

Forrest was shot seven to eight times in the back, Meadows said. Meadows said there is evidence Forrest used his weapon but did not know if the suspect was shot.

double edit to add: And in what appears to be an unrelated incident (as it's nearly 20 miles away), an Atlanta city councilman was carjacked near Bankhead Hwy around 2 am. No injuries in that one.

[BYU 14]

Yeah, that was the version I read. I know adrenaline/anger would probably be very high at that point and probably override discretion, which would tell you not to chase knowing you were outgunned.

Hopefully they catch these Bastards.

[miked]

Don't be on Bankhead Hwy at 2am. I make it a point to never stop downtown at night.

[Karlifornia]

Damn....carjackings happen a lot it seems, but I've never had one happen to me or anyone I know. And know I've jinxed myself, so I guess I'll be riding my bike for a while.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

From the latest articles I've read, it wasn't even a carjacking. Forrest had his wallet out and some guy approached him and took the wallet and ran. Forrest pursued the guy with his concealed firearm until he thought the thief had got away. When he turned around to go back to his car, the thief shot him in the back.

Moral of this story: If someone steals your wallet (or any other possessions), let him go and live to fight another day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Moral of this story: If someone steals your wallet (or any other possessions), let him go and live to fight another day.

Alternately, don't have your gun so far away you can't get to it quickly enough to shoot the bastard while he's grabbing your wallet.

[Kodos]

I'd bet that MBBF's method gets you killed less often.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'd bet that MBBF's method gets you killed less often.

Mine can make you less of a target in the first place.

It sounds as though he may have been shot after turning his back on his assailant, not good technique if that's the case. He also had the disadvantage of not (presumably) not knowing the surroundings as well as his attacker, meaning he should have been even more careful as he returned to his car.

But yeah, you can always just let 'em take your belongings without any resistance, the criminals will be happy with that plan.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by miked

Don't be on Bankhead Hwy at 2am. I make it a point to never stop downtown at night.

This was my first reaction as well(though I thought the articles said 11pm, but still, same rules apply). Especially with a kid.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Radii

This was my first reaction as well(though I thought the articles said 11pm, but still, same rules apply). Especially with a kid.

Different one. The councilman was jacked over near Bankhead, Griffin was killed between Whitehall & the McDaniel/Fulton St intersection, just southeast of Spelman College.

[Radii]

oh, right, gotcha.

[Kodos]

I'm sorry, but I'm not doing anything that increases their motivation to shoot me or a loved one -- especially over whatever might be in my wallet, which would usually be less than $100.

Following your "chase them with your gun" plan didn't work out so well for this guy. I bet the councilman who lived followed my plan.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm sorry, but I'm not doing anything that increases their motivation to shoot me over whatever might be in my wallet.

To each their own on that I reckon.

Following your plan didn't work out so well for this guy.

Bzzt. His basic philosophy I have no problem with. His execution of it left a good bit to be desired unfortunately.

edit to add: The councilman had several unusual circumstances, including being outside the home of his elderly mother who he had just walked to her front door. He was also confronted by three men, including one who fired over Mitchell's head, effectively having the drop on him from the get go. I'm not advocating suicide missions here.

[Kodos]

That's the problem. There's a good chance the other guy is more familiar with the area and/or is better with a gun.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

and/or is better with a gun.

And whose fault is that?

[miked]

This is silly. Arguing redneck semantics/actions with Jon will get you nowhere. Clearly the answer is become an expert on gun use, carry it with you at all times, if somebody tries to rob you pull your gun first. Following those simple rules will you as successful at avoiding violence as JB's blackjack method will make you rich.

[Kodos]

You're ignoring the obvious. If he had not pursued the guy, he would almost surely be alive today. And, I guess in your John Wayne world, living as a coward.

Since they're a criminal, there's a good chance that their illegal gun is more powerful than your legal gun. If you go the legal route. But go ahead an ignore that think you're in the right. The evidence is on my side.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

You're ignoring the obvious. If he had not pursued the guy, he would almost surely be alive today.

To him, and to me, the risk can be worth it ... WITH the following consideration:

And, I guess in your John Wayne world, living as a coward.

Careful, you're going to get hurt leaping to conclusions.

Circumstances dictate responses, on the bare bones of info in the articles it's possible Griffin made a reasonable decision, but I'm not familiar enough with the exact location to say for sure, I definitely can't see through Griffin's eyes & know what he was seeing. The details that have been released certainly seem to indicate that he made at least one major error in giving someone the chance to shoot him in the back though. He had already exchanged fire with at least one person, allowing them the position to get that shot obviously elevated his risk. The apparent presence of an accomplice may also play into the outcome more than we know yet.

Since they're a criminal, there's a good chance that their illegal gun is more powerful than your legal gun.

You're overestimating the firepower of the average street thug, and possibly underestimating what you can legally carry.

Like I said, I'm not advocating anybody engage in a suicide mission nor extend beyond their own capabilities. And if protecting your property doesn't mean that much to you, then by & large I can live with that too.
I don't agree with it but it's your stuff.

[Kodos]

Staying alive > any amount of stuff


I'm not risking orphaning my kids for anything that somebody could steal from me or my house.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm not risking orphaning my kids for anything that somebody could steal from me or my house.

That's your call. We all have to figure out what we can live with as well as what we're willing to risk dying for.

[gstelmack]

Keep in mind that Jon posted in the "Close Calls" thread about the Krystal Manager who gave the robbers everything they wanted and still got capped. That would color my judgement, too. There are plenty of those anecdotes to go around (see Eve Carson for example, UNC senior, student body president murdered - 3/06/08 - Raleigh News - abc11.com).

The first rule of gun ownership is "don't point it at anything you don't want destroyed". So if you are pointing a gun at me, you must want me destroyed. Sure, if I have no reasonable way to fight back, I'm not going to. But I'm with Jon that I'm not going to sit there and let the guy just shoot me (or my wife or my kids) if I think I have a shot at preventing that, and possibly preventing him from going along and doing it to someone else as well.

[Karlifornia]

JimGA is a combination of Foghorn Leghorn and Yosemite Sam, with just a dash of Richard Simmons thrown in.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Staying alive > any amount of stuff

I'm not risking orphaning my kids for anything that somebody could steal from me or my house.

I don't think anyone truly knows how they'll react in this sort of situation until it occurs - I think some people turn into heroes (or idiots depending on your view ) and others turn into cowards (or sensible) .... often against what they might publicly want to do according to their stated beliefs.

I personally view my posessions as ultimately replaceable, but try and hurt my family and I'd like to think I'd kick butt to protect them.

[Kodos]

Yeah -- protecting your family is something else entirely. But protecting my wallet, not so much.

[Karlifornia]

I'd pretty much be willing to let my family die in exchange for my own safety.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

(see Eve Carson for example).

Athens, GA native Eve Carson incidentally.

That case still gets talked about quite a bit locally, although largely from a tragedy hits home standpoint, not from a what to do/not to do standpoint.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I'd pretty much be willing to let my family die in exchange for my own safety.

I am not proud of the fact, but if it really came down to it, I too would sacrifice your family to save myself.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

I am not proud of the fact, but if it really came down to it, I too would sacrifice your family to save myself.

LOL

[Oilers9911]

Here's an idea....just give him your wallet. This vigilante tough guy shit just leads to people getting shot. Now if was guaranteed to be the bad guy getting popped....then I would change my opinion but often it isn't.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Here's an idea....just give him your wallet. This vigilante tough guy shit just leads to people getting shot. Now if was guaranteed to be the bad guy getting popped....then I would change my opinion but often it isn't.

Look, chasing after the guy was probably a mistake in this particular case as I think everyone here has been willing to admit. But if someone points a gun at you, your life is at risk even if you do everything they want. Aside from the Eve Carson-like situations where they are going to kill you anyway, that guy just has to sneeze and he can blow you away. My goal in this case is to not get shot, and sometimes a good offense is the best defense.

SOMETIMES.

[Kodos]

This guy was in the clear until he decided he should chase the thief. The danger was over, and then he got himself back into it.

And even if you're carrying a gun, the other guy already has his drawn probably. You think you can draw, aim, and shoot faster than he can shoot? Willing to bet your life on it?

[BYU 14]

This is a tough call. I have been thinking about what I would have done.

If he had the drop on me and I could not safely gain access to my gun, I would have complied and hoped security camera's would have been enough of a deterent to avoid being shot. In this situation any sudden movement towards where you have your gun virtually guarantees you get shot, especially if you are not in a position to fire immediately and accurately.

What I would not have done if he took my watch/wallet etc then left, is went to retrieve my gun and followed. I am alive and pursuit would put me at the following disadvantages.

• I am outnumbered
• I am on their turf
• It is dark
• Plus, I am leaving a child unattended in a bad part of town

All recipes for disaster IMO. Again, if security cameras were present and captured everything I would hope for the best and be happy to be alive.

If I saw him coming and could establish intent (See a gun) and could secure mine with reasonable cover, then I would have and taken pre-emptive action....If I was alone, because the other wildcard here is the child. If a child is in the Car and the Car was between me and the thug, I still would not have gone for my gun, since it would leave the child vunerable to getting caught in crossfire if there was an exchange.

There are just so many variables and things happen so quickly in situations like these I don't think you can ever reasonably process all the factors that would go into the most logical choice quickly enough, which means there will always be a degree of error. The end result is an innocent man, who was well regarded is dead. Regardless of what he did vs what he maybe should of done, it is a tragedy and we will never know if a different course of action would have lead to a different outcome.

That is the bitch, in his situation there were 4 possible outcomes.
1-Do what Forrest did and die
2-Do what Forrest did and kill bad guy
3-Comply and live another day, a bit poorer
4-Comply and still get murdered

Since people that do this type of shit (carjack, rob, etc) are not respectable, rational people to begin with, there is no true bluprint to follow and any one of the outcomes above is possible everytime. I think the only true exception is when it is apparent your family is in definite danger, then you do whatever you need to do and if you die, you die protecting the most valuable things in your life. A worthy trade off everytime.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

This guy was in the clear until he decided he should chase the thief. The danger was over, and then he got himself back into it.

Yes, and his wallet was gone with the trash that took it. Maybe you can live with that easily, some of us find it more difficult to swallow.

I'd have pretty much the same reaction of some asshole swiped, I dunno, a rake from my yard or even my herbie curbie. If you've got the right set of circumstances, taking the risk to recover really isn't a difficult call if that's how you're wired. It comes down to your ability to assess the situation and make the call on whether you like your odds and whether you're willing to accept the risk.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yes, and his wallet was gone with the trash that took it. Maybe you can live with that easily, some of us find it more difficult to swallow.

I'd have pretty much the same reaction of some asshole swiped, I dunno, a rake from my yard or even my herbie curbie. If you've got the right set of circumstances, taking the risk to recover really isn't a difficult call if that's how you're wired. It comes down to your ability to assess the situation and make the call on whether you like your odds and whether you're willing to accept the risk.

What the hell is a Herbie Curbie????

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

What the hell is a Herbie Curbie????

I dunno, but I figured I might as well take it, as long as I'm grabbing the rake...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

What the hell is a Herbie Curbie????

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yes, and his wallet was gone with the trash that took it. Maybe you can live with that easily, some of us find it more difficult to swallow.

I'd have pretty much the same reaction of some asshole swiped, I dunno, a rake from my yard or even my herbie curbie. If you've got the right set of circumstances, taking the risk to recover really isn't a difficult call if that's how you're wired. It comes down to your ability to assess the situation and make the call on whether you like your odds and whether you're willing to accept the risk.

I agree Jon, I would have the same reaction...I would be pissed. Really pissed. I would also be dropping a deuce in my shorts since the guy was aiming a piece at me. As much as I would want to avenge being robbed at gunpoint, I think staying alive would be my first concern. Not my wallet.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sweet, we just call them recycle bins here, Herby Curby is much cooler!

[flounder]

Just to sum up:

Leaving a 12 year old and a 9 year old home to play golf? Irresponsible parenting.

Leaving an 11 year old alone in a gas station in downtown Atlanta at 11 PM to exchange gunfire with a robber? Go for it.

[Kodos]

We call them Green Monsters.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Sweet, we just call them recycle bins here, Herby Curby is much cooler!

This is a recycle bin (they also come in brown or green)


The key difference is whether they have wheels on them.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

This is a recycle bin (they also come in brown or green)


The key difference is whether they have wheels on them.

Elitest

[SFL Cat]

Holy sh*t, Atlanta is the Beruit of the south.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As I speculated earlier (The apparent presence of an accomplice may also play into the outcome more than we know yet. ) police now say that the man who robbed Forrest is likely not the man who killed him.

Cops have surveillance video of man who robbed Forrest*| ajc.com

One man robbed Forrest at gunpoint, taking his diamond and gold “4X World Champion” ring and a Rolex watch, police said. Forrest pulled a gun from his waist and went after the robber, police said.

A second man shot Forrest multiple times in the back after he chased the robber, police said. And at least one other man was in a red Pontiac Grand Prix that later retrieved the robber and the shooter, police said.

“Security footage actually picks up the [robbery] suspect, but Mr. Forrest actually loses sight of the subject,” Meadows said.

Investigators used time stamps from video recorded at the 505 Fulton Street apartment building and the Whitehall Street convenience store to compile a timeline of events, Meadows said.

Footage from the gas station shows the Pontiac pull into the station, and the man police say was the robber get out.

Video from the apartment complex showed the same man enter a breezeway, carrying a silver handgun, just after police said Forrest had given chase.

“At that point Mr. Forrest comes around the corner, and he encounters another individual we believe has a gun in his hand,” Meadows said, citing witness accounts. “Mr. Forrest and this individual exchange words, and he realizes this is not the individual that actually robbed him ... Mr. Forrest turns and walks away.”

The armed man shot Forrest seven or eight times, police said.

The apartment footage later showed the robber waiting in the breezeway and talking on his cell phone before being picked up by the Pontiac.

[BYU 14]

This kind of goes along with how I saw it play out. How cowardly though to let Forrest turn and walk away then open up. Then again cowardice is usually a large part of the make up of those that pray on others.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Man charged in Vernon Forrest killing*| ajc.com

Atlanta Police have arrested a suspect in the shooting death of boxer Vernon Forrest.

Damario Ware, 20, has been charged with murder, aggravated assault and armed robbery.

Ware turned himself in to the Fulton County District Attorney’s office, police spokesman Officer James Polite said.

Forrest’s friend and manager Charles Watson said this arrest wasn’t enough.

“I want them to catch all of them,” Watson said. “It’s bittersweet.”

Long-time mentor and early boxing coach Al Mitchell said he was confident police will catch all the suspects.

“Once they get one, I guarantee they’ll find the others,” Mitchell. “They need to give all of them the [electric] chair.”

Forrest was killed on the night of July 26 when he chased an armed robber from a convenience store on Whitehall Street in southwest Atlanta.

The robber took Forrest’s gold and diamond “4X World Champion” ring and a Rolex watch, then the 38-year-old boxer pulled a gun on the robber, police said.

Police believe Forrest lost sight of the robber and encountered a different armed man. The two exchanged words and Forrest turned to walk away, realizing he had confronted the wrong man, police said.

The man shot Forrest seven or eight times in the back, police said.

Ware is one of as many as four individuals police were seeking.

He was on bond for a March arrest in which he had been charged with obstruction of a police officer and several counts of criminal trespassing and entering an auto, jail officials said.

Ware is being held at the Fulton County Jail, and will have his first court appearance Wednesday morning.

Police continue to investigate.