Gunfire reported at National Holocaust Museum.....

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

No word yet on what's occurred. Police have the building surrounded.

[DaddyTorgo]

wtf!?!?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sounds like we will have some heroes come out of this incident. At least two security guards exchanged gunfire with the gunman, wounding him and then taking him into custody. At least one security guard was wounded in the exchange........

Shots Fired at National Holocaust Museum in D.C. - Political News - FOXNews.com

[DaddyTorgo]

do you have a link from a real news organization?

*ducks and grins*

way to go for the security guards! i knew there was a reason we let them all carry firearms!

[RomaGoth]

I am wondering how they just walked into the place with their guns showing. I have never been there, but is there no checkpoint or anything prior to entering a public building?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I am wondering how they just walked into the place with their guns showing. I have never been there, but is there no checkpoint or anything prior to entering a public building?

I believe that is why they were shot, they walked into the building and were shot at by the guards. How far out do you want the guards?

[DaddyTorgo]

Shooting reported at Holocaust Museum in Washington - CNN.com

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by panerd

I believe that is why they were shot, they walked into the building and were shot at by the guards. How far out do you want the guards?

The post office across the street from my old job had a roving guard. He walked the entire way around the building for his entire shift. Perhaps this should be looked at by every federal/state building.

[DanGarion]

Early reports say the assailant was a 89 year old white supremacist.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

The post office across the street from my old job had a roving guard. He walked the entire way around the building for his entire shift. Perhaps this should be looked at by every federal/state building.

Perhaps you don't understand the layout of the musuem. There is security in the entry that is as tough (probably tougher) than airport security. Metal detectors, armed guards, sealed doors, a secure elevator to the musuem. It sucks that the security guard was shot but the same thing would have happened outside. I don't think you are getting past security at any of the D.C. federal buidlings.

[BrianD]

Sounds to me like everything happened the way it was supposed to have happened. The suspect was identified at or near the security checkpoint/metal detector and was taken down. The security guards prevented action against non-security personnel by being the initial targets and then resolved the situation.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I am wondering how they just walked into the place with their guns showing. I have never been there, but is there no checkpoint or anything prior to entering a public building?

There are metal detectors at the museum. He walked up to the checkpoint with a gun and the guards took him down. Sounds like it worked as it should to me.

Shooter was an 88 year old guy who was part of a white supremacy movement? Geez.

[DaddyTorgo]

why didn't the guards have bulletproof vests though?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

why didn't the guards have bulletproof vests though?

They may have. Initial reports were the shooter had a long gun and most body armor won't stop a typical rifle round. Pistols yes, high-powered rifle (which is most of them) no.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Shooting reported at Holocaust Museum in Washington - CNN.com

From the article:

"She said she was quickly evacuated."

I'd shit myself too!

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Sounds to me like everything happened the way it was supposed to have happened. The suspect was identified at or near the security checkpoint/metal detector and was taken down. The security guards prevented action against non-security personnel by being the initial targets and then resolved the situation.

Never been to this particular museum so not familiar with the layout. But, after reading more of what happened, it does indeed sound like things went as they were intended.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

They may have. Initial reports were the shooter had a long gun and most body armor won't stop a typical rifle round. Pistols yes, high-powered rifle (which is most of them) no.

aaah good point

[DaddyTorgo]

since this guy was just about dead anyway can we give him the death penalty by cruel + unusual methods? otherwise really...what's the point?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

since this guy was just about dead anyway can we give him the death penalty by cruel + unusual methods? otherwise really...what's the point?

I'm thinking gas chamber that looks like a prison shower?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm thinking gas chamber that looks like a prison shower?

bawhahaha

[DaddyTorgo]

or we could just eviscerate him

[DaddyTorgo]

better do something or we'll have gangs of 88 year old cancer patients roaming around commiting violent crimes because they're unafraid of the penalties!

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm thinking gas chamber that looks like a prison shower?

How about a prison shower that looks like a gas chamber?

[Schmidty]

I think they should tie him down, tape his eyes open and make him watch Seinfeld 24 hours a day, with a few episodes of Cribs thrown in.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I think they should tie him down, tape his eyes open and make him watch Seinfeld 24 hours a day, with a few episodes of Cribs thrown in.

not the Schindlers List one though. That would just be going too far

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

not the Schindlers List one though. That would just be going too far

Fine, but he doesn't get the Soup Nazi episodes either.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm thinking gas chamber that looks like a prison shower?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Fine, but he doesn't get the Soup Nazi episodes either.

Nor does he get the Michael Richards rant on stage....

[molson]

You gotta amdire an 88-year old that's still so passionate about his interests.

If only his interest wasn't hating jews and whatnot.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sad news. The guard that was shot has been pronounced dead. Unfortunately, a hero that didn't live to see his recognition as such.

[Schmidty]

RIP Paul Blart.

Bad joke, sorry.

The guy is a hero, and it's a fucking shame. This world makes me sick.

[panerd]

Local coverage has already been excessive. (Apparently the shooter lived in St. Louis for some time) Great to see the media giving this guy the attention he so very much craved. I understand that a shooting in the capital at a high interest place can't go uncovered, but do we really need to know about this pathetic loser's life? Do we really need to inspire some other racist asshole to do the same thing for the publicity? I wish there was a black and white answer for the media's culpability, but I will say with certainty that they could do a little less than we are about to get.

[King of New York]

Hats off to the security guard.

Sad to say, I always expected to see some sort of violent incident at the Holocaust Museum during my lifetime

[lordscarlet]

I just want to add that Stephen T. Johns and his fellow guards did their job and protected the visitors to the museum. It is terrible that he died, but he died doing his job and died a hero.

[Kodos]

Seems to be a spike in hate crimes recently.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Seems to be a spike in hate crimes recently.

It's pretty concerning actually, as the tactics have a level of terrorist thinking in them. The guy in the abortion doctor case went right into a church and basically eliminated that doctor for his 'cause'. He obviously was willing to sacrifice himself for his warped version of the 'greater good'. Since then, a pro-life group wants to buy the clinic and change it into a memorial or museum for the aborted babies.

In the case of the Holocaust Museum, the older Neo-nazi guy decided to go out with a bang. I'm sure there's no question that there was a reason why a black security guard was the first one he shot at.

These kinds of actions could easily promote copy-cat crimes within these or other group movements here in the U.S. I'm also sure that both of these groups are none too happy about the person in the White House for different reasons. People should definitely not take these random acts lightly. It needs to be stopped now before it becomes more common.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

It's pretty concerning actually, as the tactics have a level of terrorist thinking in them.

I'll go further: they're both terrorists. Aside from his goal of murdering the doctor, that guy also achieved a goal of making people afraid of engaging in, or supporting, a legal activity. Similar (but perhaps less so) with the guy at the Holocaust museum, visiting fear and grief upon the public.

Terrorists aren't just people with Arab, Irish or Basque accents (hyperbole to make a point here), they can also be regular Americans.

Can't wait until Fox News tells us they shouldn't be held in American jails, due to the danger.

[JPhillips]

That DHS report sure seems a lot less controversial.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Since then, a pro-life group wants to buy the clinic and change it into a memorial or museum for the aborted babies.

You lump this in with hate crimes? This seems a pretty constructive (i.e. nonviolent) way to make your point.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Samdari

You lump this in with hate crimes? This seems a pretty constructive (i.e. nonviolent) way to make your point.

It's needlessly inflammatory given the shooter has connections to the group that wants to buy the building. Imagine if an Arab sheik bought the WTC site and erected a monument to the evils of western colonialism.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Samdari

You lump this in with hate crimes? This seems a pretty constructive (i.e. nonviolent) way to make your point.

So suppose a Muslim group wanted to build a mosque where the Trade Towers were? Or a white supremacist group wanted to put a gun shop up in OKC?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's needlessly inflammatory given the shooter has connections to the group that wants to buy the building. Imagine if an Arab sheik bought the WTC site and erected a monument to the evils of western colonialism.

Beat me by 3 minutes. (Though I am sure both of our arguements are pretty out there)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's needlessly inflammatory given the shooter has connections to the group that wants to buy the building. Imagine if an Arab sheik bought the WTC site and erected a monument to the evils of western colonialism.

that'd be awesomely horrible

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's needlessly inflammatory given the shooter has connections to the group that wants to buy the building. Imagine if an Arab sheik bought the WTC site and erected a monument to the evils of western colonialism.

They did not say they were going to build a museum of how evil the doctor was.

You don't see the difference between:

An act where someone dies

and

An act where noone gets hurt, nor even has to be offended if they choose not to enter a certain building?

The first one is a hate crime. The second in poor taste. Poor taste is NOT a hate crime. its not even a crime. Its legally exercising your freedom of speech.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Samdari

They did not say they were going to build a museum of how evil the doctor was.

You don't see the difference between:

An act where someone dies

and

An act where noone gets hurt, nor even has to be offended if they choose not to enter a certain building?

The first one is a hate crime. The second in poor taste. Poor taste is NOT a hate crime. its not even a crime. Its legally exercising your freedom of speech.

I don't think anyone is saying they're the same thing.

But it is celebrating the act that was taken at that site by making it a ceremonial testament to the ideals that caused the murder.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by panerd

So suppose a Muslim group wanted to build a mosque where the Trade Towers were? Or a white supremacist group wanted to put a gun shop up in OKC?

And Samdari, you didn't answer this.

[JPhillips]

I'd agree it's not a hate crime(especially given that I'm largely opposed to the idea of hate crimes). I'd vehemently disagree that it's a "constructive" way to make a point. The shooter has a long history of ties with Operation Rescue and their desire to buy the building of the deceased is needlessly provocative IMO.

I also don't see a tangible difference between constructing a monument/museum and renovating an existing structure.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'll go further: they're both terrorists. Aside from his goal of murdering the doctor, that guy also achieved a goal of making people afraid of engaging in, or supporting, a legal activity. Similar (but perhaps less so) with the guy at the Holocaust museum, visiting fear and grief upon the public.

Terrorists aren't just people with Arab, Irish or Basque accents (hyperbole to make a point here), they can also be regular Americans.

Can't wait until Fox News tells us they shouldn't be held in American jails, due to the danger.

Yes, but to that extreme, isn't almost any murder that's not a crime of passion an act of terror? If you're a drug dealer and you want people to respect your territory and kill someone poaching on it, is that terrorism? Mafia killing informant? Bank robber shooting a guard to he gets what he wants? In the end, don't those all evoke terror?

I'd rather we retire the "terrorism" boogeyman from everyday speech and save it for what is most definitely terrorism- something which I'm lacking a coherent definition of at the moment. But you can't just use the definition "anything that evokes fear/terror".

For these two cases, prosecute these crimes for what they were- murder and murder. Same problem I also have with "hate crime" legislation- is it any different is someone kills because they don't like a person personally or don't like a group of people? Again, murder is murder and legislating thought crime is a serious problem.

SI

[gstelmack]

Terrorism has a specific political element of governmental change. The idea behind a Terror campaign is to get people to think their current government can't protect them, which leads to a change in the government.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I don't think anyone is saying they're the same thing.

MBBF listed it among his hate crimes. That's all I disagreed with.

Originally Posted by KWhit

But it is celebrating the act that was taken at that site by making it a ceremonial testament to the ideals that caused the murder.

Such celebration is perfectly legal, if in bad taste, no?

Originally Posted by KWhit

And Samdari, you didn't answer this. So suppose a Muslim group wanted to build a mosque where the Trade Towers were? Or a white supremacist group wanted to put a gun shop up in OKC?.

This is easy. I think a mosque near where the two towers were is a great idea, right next to a church and a synagogue. Are you seriously suggesting that a mosque is a symbol celebrating terrorism and death?

As for the other, have you been to OKC? The number of gun shops with white supremacist literature prominently on display probably numbers in the dozens. This one has been done.