Teens Acquitted of Murdering Illegal

[RainMaker]

I know this is a particularly racist part of Pennsylvania, but still shocking to see. Not much different from the old days when all white juries acquitted people of lynching black men. Had been following it throughout and admit that I'm not surprised considering the part of the country this took place in. Hopefully the Feds pursue charges.

No murder conviction in Mexican immigrant's beating death - CNN.com

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I know this is a particularly racist part of Pennsylvania

Give that quote to the local tourism board.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I know this is a particularly racist part of Pennsylvania

Way to be ignorant yourself there, chief.

[Noop]

Sad to say but I am not surprised by this... the more things change the more they stay the same. Hopefully justice will be served.

[Raiders Army]

I dunno. There are some that agree with RM:

Residents disagree on verdict | republicanherald.com | The Republican-Herald

Originally Posted by The Article

“We have seen problems between the whites and Hispanics,” Chester Bayliff said. “This town was built by the Irish, Italian and Eastern Europeans and this is a prejudice town.”

“I am an American citizen now, but I was born in Belfast. I saw some of it when I first came here, but not as much as with the Mexicans,” Noreen Bayliff said.

Melinda Colon said she thinks race played a part in the verdict.

“That’s crazy how they got away with it. It’s because he was Mexican. If they weren’t white, they’d be doing time,” Colon said.

Originally Posted by Same Article

Lee Ann Jones discussed the trial Saturday as she left Vernalis Restaurant on South Main Street.

“I have mixed feelings,” Jones said. “They got off and I think they should have been charged. People have been talking about it and there are so many stories that it is hard to decide what is the truth, but it is not right what they did.”

I found this to be quite funny though:

Originally Posted by Same Article

Representatives from the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund were outraged by the jury’s conclusion.

“It is time for the Department of Justice to step in and bring justice to the Ramirez family and send a strong message that violence targeting immigrants will not be tolerated and will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law,” Henry Solano, MALDEF interim president and general counsel, said Saturday in a press release.

The release stated MALDEF will continue to work with the Ramirez family and the U.S. Department of Justice.

I like how MALDEF wants the laws to be upheld. I wonder how much they're working to get rid of the illegal immigrants?

On an entirely different note, sometimes I get tired of the United States trying to be holier than thou. If we're going to treat our illegal Mexican immigrants properly, I'd like to have our citizens get treated properly in Mexico who are there legally.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It is time for the Department of Justice to step in and bring justice to the Ramirez family

If the report describing his immigration status is accurate then I couldn't agree more. They should have been brought to justice a long time ago.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If the report describing his immigration status is accurate then I couldn't agree more. They should have been brought to justice a long time ago.

Maybe your grandparents or great grandparents should have been brought to justice when they "illegally" came in here and fucked up shit for the native americans.


It's all a bunch of garbage, this immigration issue. The white man already came here "illegally". And for what? For pieces of paper. Didn't wanna pay taxes over in England? Guess what? We're paying taxes over here. Nice work, moron pilgrims.

"Brought to justice". That is truly laughable, and lacks any sense of history. Yeah, how dare they come here and do the jobs nobody else wants.

As an aside, I can't decide which holiday is more bullshit: Thanksgiving, or Colombus Day. Thanksgiving is great. It's like having a "Krystallnacht Feast".

[molson]

Acquittal = Racism?

Convictions are hard in this country. There are many criminals roaming the street. Very, very few charges result in a conviction on the original charge.

That's party because jurors can be morons, but it's mostly because defense attorneys have a lot more leeway when it comes to ethics (because you can't appeal an acquittal, even if they say, lie about the facts, or attempt to appeal to the subtle racism of the jury.) Happens all the time.

It's funny to see things turned around - the anti-prosecution/law enforcement types get a sense of how hard it is when it's a personal cause to them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

It's all a bunch of garbage, this immigration issue blah blah blah

Feel better now after your little rant? Would hate to think it was completely wasted.

[Comey]

Having lived close to that region for many, many years, and having spent a good bit of time there, I wouldn't necessarily say it's "racist".

It's "patriotic".

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Maybe your grandparents or great grandparents should have been brought to justice when they "illegally" came in here and fucked up shit for the native americans.


It's all a bunch of garbage, this immigration issue. The white man already came here "illegally". And for what? For pieces of paper. Didn't wanna pay taxes over in England? Guess what? We're paying taxes over here. Nice work, moron pilgrims.

"Brought to justice". That is truly laughable, and lacks any sense of history. Yeah, how dare they come here and do the jobs nobody else wants.

As an aside, I can't decide which holiday is more bullshit: Thanksgiving, or Colombus Day. Thanksgiving is great. It's like having a "Krystallnacht Feast".

Well, to be fair the immigrants from Europe could either win "citizenship" by war or through diplomacy. Comparing the 1400s to now is ridiculous. (BTW, I am a legal immigrant.)

My point is that it's funny to me that an organization which wants to uphold certain laws doesn't necessarily find it troublesome that other laws are being broken. Granted, MALDEF is working towards a better immigration system.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Comey

Having lived close to that region for many, many years, and having spent a good bit of time there, I wouldn't necessarily say it's "racist".

It's "patriotic".

I used to live in Quakertown, not to far away and I would say this is accurate.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Maybe your grandparents or great grandparents should have been brought to justice when they "illegally" came in here and fucked up shit for the native americans.

I'm sorry but this is such a tired argument.

That's like saying if my great grandfather has slaves I should somehow be responsible.

It was a totally different time back then.

[Schmidty]

Nothing to do with the horrible thing that happened, but I find it mind-boggling that there are people ignorant enough to think that illegal immigration isn't a problem. Just wow.

(edit: I'm not saying I agree with some of the overboard psycho anti-immigration people, just that I don't think anyone can say that it isn't a problem at all)

[Dr. Sak]

My father grew up in that town. I haven't been back there in around 5 or 6 years since my grandfather died.

[judicial clerk]

I know this is a particularly racist part of Pennsylvania, but still shocking to see. Not much different from the old days when all white juries acquitted people of lynching black men. Had been following it throughout and admit that I'm not surprised considering the part of the country this took place in. Hopefully the Feds pursue charges.

I agree this seems pretty gross, but after the racism exhibited by the OJ jury, nothing suprises me anymore.

[Greyroofoo]

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm not saying I agree with some of the overboard psycho anti-immigration people, at all)

The problem is that these are the people holding up anything sensible from getting done.

As I've said before, I employ what are likely to be illegal immigrants (but I submit ALL their paperwork to the government even though it is likely fabricated). I'm not sure anybody could argue that I'm looking to undercut American workers, my guys get compensated better than most factories pay in the area.

And to appease the anti-immigration folks, ALL of my employees go back to their home country after two or three years.

So why the hell can't we get a guest worker program going?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

As an aside, I can't decide which holiday is more bullshit: Thanksgiving, or Colombus Day. Thanksgiving is great. It's like having a "Krystallnacht Feast".

OMG...so true!!!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Way to be ignorant yourself there, chief.

The jury foreman came out and said it himself.

Jury Foreman Calls Other Jurors Racist - WNEP

I don't know if you are familiar with the area, but it's widely known as a rather racist area. Any remember these videos from the area?

[Comey]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

I think this is because Hazelton (which outlawed housing to immigrants, I believe) is within a short driving distance to Pottsville.

That said, the area is still pretty...well, long in the tooth.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Nothing to do with the horrible thing that happened, but I find it mind-boggling that there are people ignorant enough to think that illegal immigration isn't a problem. Just wow.

(edit: I'm not saying I agree with some of the overboard psycho anti-immigration people, just that I don't think anyone can say that it isn't a problem at all)

What do you think is the biggest problems with illegal immigration? Not trying to start anything, but I've just never noticed this massive problem with illegals that others are having.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What do you think is the biggest problems with illegal immigration? Not trying to start anything, but I've just never noticed this massive problem with illegals that others are having.

Where do you live, Rain?

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

Yes, yes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Where do you live, Rain?

I was kind of wondering the same thing, might be an attractive alternative locale at some point.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The jury foreman came out and said it himself.

Jury Foreman Calls Other Jurors Racist - WNEP

I don't know if you are familiar with the area, but it's widely known as a rather racist area. Any remember these videos from the area?

Keep trying to paint a whole area with a broad brush.

After all, it's not like you generalize anything you've ever said at FOFC.

"Widely known" = lol

[RedKingGold]

Dola

I also love where you got that video. Let me run to find some Republican websites with videos showing extreme left-wing individuals in action to counter your "evidence".

[EagleFan]

lol, the title within the video itself should pretty much tell you everything that you need to know about it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Where do you live, Rain?

Chicago

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Dola

I also love where you got that video. Let me run to find some Republican websites with videos showing extreme left-wing individuals in action to counter your "evidence".

It's par for the course for Rainmaker.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

You truly believe that if it was 4 Mexican kids who killed a white guy that they wouldn't have been found guilty?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Of course the prosecutor could've been incompetent and left room for reasonable doubt.

Nah, must be racism.

Or.........Maybe it was because the key witnesses were all pretty much involved in the altercation and there was no way to get the straight story about an attack that is pretty clearly racially motivated.

Either way you look at it racism is involved and as usual manifests itself in the most chickenshit of ways possible.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Chicago

Well, might not be as much an issue in Chicago.

It's definitely an issue in SoCal, one of the biggest actually.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Where do you live, Rain?

Yep, I'll admit this probably factors into my attitude, living in Wisconsin, since we don't see illegal immigrants in as large of numbers here. Also, while I don't really want to paint with a broad brush, I'd say in general we get a more motivated immigrant because they have a greater distance to travel to get here and our winters suck to them. Sure, there are bad apples here, but the great majority of them are here and not hurting a thing (in most cases, paying into social security which they'll never collect).

That said, I'm all for deporting those involved in crime (other than the crime of simply being here). I'm not sure how to handle granting citizenship, and I wonder what % actually desire citizenship. None of my employees are interested in staying here, and most are actually entrepreneurs from Nicaragua that have no way to raise capital in their home country, and come here and work for a few years to start businesses back in Nicaragua.

And they absolutely adore Ronald Reagan, being former Contras.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Well, might not be as much an issue in Chicago.

It's definitely an issue in SoCal, one of the biggest actually.

What are the issues in SoCal? There is a large Mexican population here in Chicago in many parts but they've never bothered me or caused any issues in my life. In fact, it's in their best interest to stay out of any trouble they can.

[Comey]

I will actually go with the curve here, and blame A-Rod for this.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You truly believe that if it was 4 Mexican kids who killed a white guy that they wouldn't have been found guilty?

Well given that the jury, well the foreman, said that the evidence didn't support the charges, I'd like to have enough faith in the system to state that such a verdict would be reasonable. It should be pretty clear that there is more at play here than four white guys beating up a Mexican kid. Was he alone? Was he targetted because he was Mexican? Was it just a stupid teen age brawl, that had nothing to do with race?

So given the facts available to us, it certainly shouldn't be a stretch to say that the acquittal was a reasonable outcome.


I'm about as law abiding a citizen as possible. I back law enforcement at prett much all opportunity. I predicted the Rodney King verdict, as I followed it from a distance, and knew the case being made was weak weak weak. So stating those facts. Last year I was on a jury, and basically acquitted a hardened repeat felon because I believed the cop was making shit up. The charge was only drunk driving, but still. It is up to the prosecution to build and present a case. If the jury acquits it isn't always because they are a bunch of a racists.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I'm about as law abiding a citizen as possible. I back law enforcement at prett much all opportunity. I predicted the Rodney King verdict, as I followed it from a distance, and knew the case being made was weak weak weak. So stating those facts. Last year I was on a jury, and basically acquitted a hardened repeat felon because I believed the cop was making shit up. The charge was only drunk driving, but still. It is up to the prosecution to build and present a case. If the jury acquits it isn't always because they are a bunch of a racists.

There is nothing a prosecutor can do if jurors are racist. He can present all the evidence in the world and the jury will find the guy not guilty simply based on skin color.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What are the issues in SoCal? There is a large Mexican population here in Chicago in many parts but they've never bothered me or caused any issues in my life. In fact, it's in their best interest to stay out of any trouble they can.

Crime and prison crowding. Job loss (oddly enough, it's the legal immigrants who mostly lose out there). Money going back to Mexico instead of staying in the US. Illegals taking advantage of costly social services in the US while contributing nothing to the pot. The drug trade (I guess that fits in with crime). Traffic/driving issues.

Illegal immigration costs California billions, and that's probably conservative.

I am also certain this same pattern is repeated in Arizona, New Mexico and (in particular) Texas.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Maybe your grandparents or great grandparents should have been brought to justice when they "illegally" came in here and fucked up shit for the native americans.


It's all a bunch of garbage, this immigration issue. The white man already came here "illegally". And for what? For pieces of paper. Didn't wanna pay taxes over in England? Guess what? We're paying taxes over here. Nice work, moron pilgrims.

"Brought to justice". That is truly laughable, and lacks any sense of history. Yeah, how dare they come here and do the jobs nobody else wants.

As an aside, I can't decide which holiday is more bullshit: Thanksgiving, or Colombus Day. Thanksgiving is great. It's like having a "Krystallnacht Feast".

Colombus Day would be more bullshit. After all, it's spelled Columbus. Accept no imitations. As for the sins of the "white man", you realize that the New World wasn't some sort of sunny-skied utopia, right?

This is one of my favorite pieces of Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence":

The Spanish colonists committed atrocities from greed and racist contempt that nothing can palliate or excuse. But to blame Columbus is a piece of restrospective lynching; he was not the master criminal inspiring all the rest. It is moreover a mistake to think that because the native peoples were the sufferers, all of them were peaceable innocents. The Caribs whom Columbus first encountered had fought and displaced the Arawaks who occupied the islands. The Aztecs whom Cortez conquered had originally descended from the north, and destroyed the previous civilization. To the north and the east many of the tribes lived in perpetual warfare, the strong exploiting the weak, and several- notably the Iroquois- had slaves. In short, what happened on the newfound hemisphere in the early modern times continued the practice of the old: in ancient Greece alien tribes marching in from the north; likewise in the making of the Roman Empire, in the peopling of the British Isles by Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, and Normans; in France, Italy, and Spain by Franks, Normans, Lombards Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and later by Arabs. Everywhere the story is one of invasion, killing, rape, and plunder and occupation of the land that belonged to the vanquished. Today, this fusion or dispersion of peoples and cultures by means of death and destruction is abhorred in principle but flourishing in fact. Africa, the Middle and Far East, and South Central Europe are still theaters of conquest and massacre. And Columbus is not the responsible party.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Crime and prison crowding. Job loss (oddly enough, it's the legal immigrants who mostly lose out there). Money going back to Mexico instead of staying in the US. Illegals taking advantage of costly social services in the US while contributing nothing to the pot. The drug trade (I guess that fits in with crime). Traffic/driving issues.

Illegal immigration costs California billions, and that's probably conservative.

I am also certain this same pattern is repeated in Arizona, New Mexico and (in particular) Texas.

The pattern is absolutely repeated in Arizona and working for a State Medicaid plan it is a huge strain on an already depleted budget, despite measures inacted to prevent use of state services by Illegals.

[gstelmack]

Here in North Carolina, unlicensed / uninsured / drunk driving is probably the biggest issue that impacts folks on a fairly regular basis.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Here in North Carolina, unlicensed / uninsured / drunk driving is probably the biggest issue that impacts folks on a fairly regular basis.

Yeah, that's main thing I was referring to with the "Traffic/Driving" issue I pointed out above. The other issues are just as big, but that one also stands out in CA.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Crime and prison crowding. Job loss (oddly enough, it's the legal immigrants who mostly lose out there). Money going back to Mexico instead of staying in the US. Illegals taking advantage of costly social services in the US while contributing nothing to the pot. The drug trade (I guess that fits in with crime). Traffic/driving issues.

Illegal immigration costs California billions, and that's probably conservative.

I am also certain this same pattern is repeated in Arizona, New Mexico and (in particular) Texas.

It's also an issue in education.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Danny

It's also an issue in education.

Yeah, that's covered under "illegals taking advantage of social services in the US", but you're right, that particular issue should be highlighted under that, as well as use of medical services at public hospitals where they can't turn people away (I'm talking elective/non-critical type stuff, all humans, no matter there status should and do receive emergency services).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Crime and prison crowding. Job loss (oddly enough, it's the legal immigrants who mostly lose out there). Money going back to Mexico instead of staying in the US. Illegals taking advantage of costly social services in the US while contributing nothing to the pot. The drug trade (I guess that fits in with crime). Traffic/driving issues.

Illegal immigration costs California billions, and that's probably conservative.

I am also certain this same pattern is repeated in Arizona, New Mexico and (in particular) Texas.

Don't these people also bring in revenues to the state through the various taxes that they have to pay? Or business to local store owners? How about the cheap labor that allows certain businesses to thrive

As for the social services argument, it seems your issue would be more with poor people than illegals. They take advantage of costly social services while contributing nothing to the pot as well. Cutting back on those services in general would seem to alleviate this problem.

I agree with the other arguments except the jobs one. I think it's somewhat silly when people complain about that. But traffic and overpopulation in areas would be an issue. I'm definitely for better enforcement of our borders but I do think the hardcore groups hurt the cause and spread apocalyptic jibberish to muddy their point.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't these people also bring in revenues to the state through the various taxes that they have to pay? Or business to local store owners? How about the cheap labor that allows certain businesses to thrive

If you're being paid under the table, you're not paying income tax. Sales tax on purchases isn't enough to justify wholesale usage of the system, while contributing comparatively little. That cheap labor can be (and is) done by legal immigrants. It can also now be done by some of the millions of desperate job seekers in California currently, where our unemployment rate is significantly higher than the rest of the country's. And if businesses need to pay under the table, cheap and illegal labor to survive, they should not be surviving, and be replaced by more efficient businesses in the capitalistic model.

As for the social services argument, it seems your issue would be more with poor people than illegals. They take advantage of costly social services while contributing nothing to the pot as well. Cutting back on those services in general would seem to alleviate this problem.

No, poor but legal people pay taxes. They have the same right to those services as anyone. Poor people do contribute to the pot. Cutting back on services to the poor will likely just result in an increase in crime.

I agree with the other arguments except the jobs one. I think it's somewhat silly when people complain about that. But traffic and overpopulation in areas would be an issue. I'm definitely for better enforcement of our borders but I do think the hardcore groups hurt the cause and spread apocalyptic jibberish to muddy their point.

I think with the jobs one, you don't know just how prevalent legal immigration is here. There are plenty of good people I know, Mexicans/South Americans for the most part, who got here legally and are working hard for their families here, and they are definitely hurt by illegal immigration. It's a huge issue for them (as is the likelihood that the recession is actually causing established social classes--i.e. whites and blacks, suburban middle classers--to take jobs they are overqualified for to pay the bills, which shrinks the job market for legal immigrants).

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, poor but legal people pay taxes.

So do illegal immigrants.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

So do illegal immigrants.

Not the two big ones (income and property).

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Not the two big ones (income and property).

They DO pay income taxes, although I'm not sure what the breakdown is between those that do and those that don't.

Property taxes, well obviously, because you kind of need to own property.