A Glimmer of Hope for Playoff

BradS · 05-01-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Rep. Joe Barton of Texas, who has introduced legislation that would prevent the NCAA from labeling a game a national championship unless it is the outcome of a playoff, bluntly warned Swofford: "If we don't see some action in the next two months, on a voluntary switch to a playoff system, then you will see this bill move."

Putting some heat on the BCS

molson · 05-01-2009, 04:19 PM

Unbelievable.

Maybe Congress should just determine the national champion.

BradS · 05-01-2009, 04:23 PM

Whatever it takes!

molson · 05-01-2009, 04:27 PM

So the theory is that calling the NCAA champion "national champion" is fraudulent or misleading?

And why should Boise St. and Utah have access, and not division II or III schools? Isn't it the NCAA that allows those schools to be division I in the first place?

Worst case, the NCAA could just change the name, or promote the BCS schools to a higher, super-division.

I'm also thinking I should get some kind of punitive damage award in years when the Super Bowl isn't really "Super".

Big Fo · 05-01-2009, 04:29 PM

Go big government, 16-team playoff ftw

edit: it looks like they want an 8-team playoff

BradS · 05-01-2009, 04:35 PM

You make some interesting points but my point is more in line with teams like an undefeated Auburn(few years back) who were shut out with what amounts to splitting hairs or a few less style points. BCS system is lacking in more than one way.

molson · 05-01-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Go big government, 16-team playoff ftw

edit: it looks like they want an 8-team playoff

So I guess they want 7 automatic bids and a wild card?

Pumpy Tudors · 05-01-2009, 05:11 PM

I think this whole scenario is bullshit unless the government wants to take over the whole thing. Let the government determine the schedules of every game, let them pick the playoff teams, let them decide who plays on television, etc., etc. Hell, I'd give them control over television scheduling just to see which conferences get the most national coverage. Given how much they're sticking their noses into this, I would hope that I could see bottom feeders from the Sun Belt just as much as the Big Ten.

Michigan vs. Ohio State, my ass. Give me Louisiana-Monroe vs. Western Kentucky!

Chief Rum · 05-01-2009, 06:07 PM

System ain't fixing itself, that's for sure.

MJ4H · 05-01-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

Unbelievable.

Maybe Congress should just determine the national champion.

It would be no worse than the current system.

RainMaker · 05-01-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

So the theory is that calling the NCAA champion "national champion" is fraudulent or misleading?

And why should Boise St. and Utah have access, and not division II or III schools? Isn't it the NCAA that allows those schools to be division I in the first place?

Division II and Division III have national championship games. Each team is eligible to win the NC before the season. That is not the case in D1 which is why it's tough to call it a national championship.

Atocep · 05-01-2009, 07:53 PM

MLB should have to change the name of the World Series and professional sports in the US should stop calling their championships a world championship.

RainMaker · 05-01-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

MLB should have to change the name of the World Series and professional sports in the US should stop calling their championships a world championship.

That isn't what I got out of it. I think they are saying that it's not really a championship if every team participating in the league doesn't have a shot to win it.

RainMaker · 05-01-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I think this whole scenario is bullshit unless the government wants to take over the whole thing. Let the government determine the schedules of every game, let them pick the playoff teams, let them decide who plays on television, etc., etc. Hell, I'd give them control over television scheduling just to see which conferences get the most national coverage. Given how much they're sticking their noses into this, I would hope that I could see bottom feeders from the Sun Belt just as much as the Big Ten.

Michigan vs. Ohio State, my ass. Give me Louisiana-Monroe vs. Western Kentucky!

It's not about scheduling and fairness necessarily. It's about antitrust issues and unfair business practices.

Atocep · 05-01-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That isn't what I got out of it. I think they are saying that it's not really a championship if every team participating in the league doesn't have a shot to win it.

If the NCAA doesn't do what the gov't wants then they plan on introducing legislation to prevent them from using the term "National Championship". Then professional sports should be forced to do what I said above.

Just because people want to see a playoff doesn't mean they should be cheering on congress in this case. They have no business getting involved here.

RainMaker · 05-01-2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

If the NCAA doesn't do what the gov't wants then they plan on introducing legislation to prevent them from using the term "National Championship". Then professional sports should be forced to do what I said above.

Just because people want to see a playoff doesn't mean they should be cheering on congress in this case. They have no business getting involved here.

The NCAA operates as a monopoly and our government intervenes in them from time to time when something is deemed unfair.

MJ4H · 05-01-2009, 08:21 PM

I would support Hitler if he was for this at this point. It is beyond ridiculous.

Atocep · 05-01-2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The NCAA operates as a monopoly and our government intervenes in them from time to time when something is deemed unfair.

That's fine, as long as they step in and prevent other sports from using misleading names for the championships as well I'm fine with it.

spleen1015 · 05-01-2009, 08:29 PM

The system should be changed, but the government shouldn't force it to be. They should stay out of it.

Chief Rum · 05-01-2009, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

The system should be changed, but the government shouldn't force it to be. They should stay out of it.

If a bad system won't change on its own, it's the job of the government to make it change.

Chief Rum · 05-01-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

That's fine, as long as they step in and prevent other sports from using misleading names for the championships as well I'm fine with it.

No offense, but seems kinda like a petty little thing to get worked up about. Like a cop giving a server a ticket, so next time the server takes care of a fireman, he serves him lukewarm coffee and says, "Take that!"

Pumpy Tudors · 05-01-2009, 09:18 PM

Well, you guys have fun.

Noop · 05-01-2009, 10:00 PM

A playoff system is long overdue, it should have been implemented when the NCAA put in scholarship limitations on every team. I think they should have an auto bid for each of the conference winners. If you don't make it then you can play in a bowl game.

Speaking of bowl games they need to be reduced because it is oversaturated right now.

Big Fo · 05-01-2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

I think they should have an auto bid for each of the conference winners. If you don't make it then you can play in a bowl game.

11 conference winners, five wild cards determined by something similar to the current BCS rankings, seeding done by the same rankings.

SnDvls · 05-01-2009, 10:24 PM

so are they going to then mandate a 256 team basketball tournament so "almost" every team has a chance there too?

Atocep · 05-01-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No offense, but seems kinda like a petty little thing to get worked up about. Like a cop giving a server a ticket, so next time the server takes care of a fireman, he serves him lukewarm coffee and says, "Take that!"

Yet its not petty for congress to tell the NCAA what they can call their championship just because Texas got left out and the MWC wants an auto bid? If Texas had played for the national title last season and the MWC conference had an auto-bid then Orrin Hatch and Joe Barton wouldn't be saying a damn thing righw now.

I'm not ok with the gov't stepping in and dictating what our sports do. They had no business getting involved with steroids in baseball and they have no business telling the NCAA what they call their championship game or how they should go about choosing it.

Big Fo · 05-01-2009, 10:26 PM

In basketball all a team has to do is win its conference. In football a team can win the conference unbeaten for the season and still get screwed. There is a big difference.

SnDvls · 05-01-2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Fo

In basketball all a team has to do is win its conference. In football a team can win the conference unbeaten for the season and still get screwed. There is a big difference.

no they must win their conference tournament...big difference.

SnDvls · 05-01-2009, 10:37 PM

I don't have a problem with a "playoff"

I also don't have a problem with the system as it is now

I have a problem with how the selection will happen for the participants for the "playoff".

the bill wants to "make it fair" but there isn't a way to do that.

Big Fo · 05-01-2009, 10:39 PM

winning the conference = winning the conference tournament that decides the conference champion (unless there is no such tournament and regular season standings decide the winner)

Chief Rum · 05-01-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

Yet its not petty for congress to tell the NCAA what they can call their championship just because Texas got left out and the MWC wants an auto bid? If Texas had played for the national title last season and the MWC conference had an auto-bid then Orrin Hatch and Joe Barton wouldn't be saying a damn thing righw now.

I'm not ok with the gov't stepping in and dictating what our sports do. They had no business getting involved with steroids in baseball and they have no business telling the NCAA what they call their championship game or how they should go about choosing it.

If Congress doesn't get involved with the steroid issue, nothing happens, and we still have a game acting like there's no problem.

And if the MWC and Texas gets those two Congressman off of the playoff horse, they'll be replaced by the senators from Idaho or Hawaii, or whoever's state senator who gets left out. That's a straw man, Atocep, and irrelevant to the issue. I know you can construct a logically valid argument better than going with that.

I have no problem with your stance, although I disagree with it. I do have a discussion-level sorta problem with you resorting to some side argument, like what other sports leagues call their champions, as some sort of support for your stance, which frankly does a really poor job of it. There are better arguments to be made.

Edit for clarity: Your "stance" as described by you in the second paragraph above quoted.

SnDvls · 05-01-2009, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Fo

winning the conference = winning the conference tournament that decides the conference champion (unless there is no such tournament and regular season standings decide the winner)

so SW Mary & Joseph's School for the Dumb that went 0-23, but wins 3 games in a row deserves a shot over James Dumb U. who went 15-0 in league play but got unlucky in their conference tournament?

I don't have a problem with how the NCAA tournament is, but think the person presenting the bill is showing a double standard in how he wants football run, but not basketball/baseball/softball/hockey etc.

Chief Rum · 05-01-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

so are they going to then mandate a 256 team basketball tournament so "almost" every team has a chance there too?

The basketball tournament doesn't leave out teams that could not only possible win it all, but could be among the favorites to win it all.

No one outside of the 65-team field this year was going to win the championship if inserted arbitrarily into the field, and that can probably be asserted all the way back to at least when the field was expanded to a 64 team field 25 years ago or so. And every team does indeed have a chance to force their way in, and without resorting to polls.

Can't say that in football, where every year, several potential champions are left to play meaningless bowl games, or even left out of the BCS altogether, and with teams in conferences that can't force their way into the picture without once in a lifetime type of seasons (and even then, not enough, see Boise State, Utah, Hawaii, BYU, etc.).

Chief Rum · 05-01-2009, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

I don't have a problem with how the NCAA tournament is, but think the person presenting the bill is showing a double standard in how he wants football run, but not basketball/baseball/softball/hockey etc.

How or why would he legislate other sports? No one seriously questions the fairness of how these other sports determine their champions (except maybe to try to build up irrelevant arguments to support their flawed backing of the current D-1 college football system).

SnDvls · 05-01-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The basketball tournament doesn't leave out teams that could not only possible win it all, but could be among the favorites to win it all.

No one outside of the 65-team field this year was going to win the championship if inserted arbitrarily into the field, and that can probably be asserted all the way back to at least when the field was expanded to a 64 team field 25 years ago or so. And every team does indeed have a chance to force their way in, and without resorting to polls.

Can't say that in football, where every year, several potential champions are left to play meaningless bowl games, or even left out of the BCS altogether, and with teams in conferences that can't force their way into the picture without once in a lifetime type of seasons (and even then, not enough, see Boise State, Utah, Hawaii, BYU, etc.).

but you're leaving someone out and that is the point of the bill. Go for it all. Does team #9 have a shot to win it, probally? What about team #10? Then they'll expand the playoff to 16 teams and team #17 will bitch about it.

Big Fo · 05-01-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

so SW Mary & Joseph's School for the Dumb that went 0-23, but wins 3 games in a row deserves a shot over James Dumb U. who went 15-0 in league play but got unlucky in their conference tournament?

I don't have a problem with how the NCAA tournament is, but think the person presenting the bill is showing a double standard in how he wants football run, but not basketball/baseball/softball/hockey etc.

It might be flawed but at least every D1-A team can make it to the championship or playoffs that decide the championship in basketball. College basketball conference tournaments v. deciding winners by regular season standings aren't really what we're talking about here though.

larrymcg421 · 05-01-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

but you're leaving someone out and that is the point of the bill. Go for it all. Does team #9 have a shot to win it, probally? What about team #10? Then they'll expand the playoff to 16 teams and team #17 will bitch about it.

I'd rather have the #17 team bitch than the #3 team.

Not that I support government action in this.

Matthean · 05-01-2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

but you're leaving someone out and that is the point of the bill. Go for it all. Does team #9 have a shot to win it, probally? What about team #10? Then they'll expand the playoff to 16 teams and team #17 will bitch about it.

Well, if the #9 ranked team is undefeated and still missing out, they might have a point.

Top 8 BCS teams get in. I wouldn't be opposed to conference champs getting the higher seeds once the 8 are picked.

Chief Rum · 05-02-2009, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

but you're leaving someone out and that is the point of the bill. Go for it all. Does team #9 have a shot to win it, probally? What about team #10? Then they'll expand the playoff to 16 teams and team #17 will bitch about it.

No, the point of the bill is to force action, because the BCS does not seem inclined to do it on its own. If the BCS wants to avoid the bill, they can devise their own playoff in the manner they see fit that meets whatever minimums the writers of the bill intend--so long as it finally gets the system to some sort of a legitamite playoff.

As for that last, it's a tired and worthless argument (no offense, it just is, I know you're trotting out the party line, so hopefully you don't take offense). The "arguing 16 vs 17" line is one of the entrenched flawed arguments for the current system, which completely and irresponsibly ignores the fact that the current system has us arguing over 2 vs 3.

molson · 05-02-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

If a bad system won't change on its own, it's the job of the government to make it change.

It's a sport, and a private entity. Why should they be allowed to run things the way they want?

What if Congress doesn't like the MLB playoff structure, or the season length of the NFL?

It's mind-boggling to me that people want the federal government legislating sports. We're not talking about drugs, or gambling, or rigging games, we're talking about the way a collegiate athletic association awards championships.

It's a little creepy how much some people want a playoff.

molson · 05-02-2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, the point of the bill is to force action, because the BCS does not seem inclined to do it on its own. If the BCS wants to avoid the bill, they can devise their own playoff in the manner they see fit that meets whatever minimums the writers of the bill intend--so long as it finally gets the system to some sort of a legitamite playoff.

There's no constitutional right to a playoff, I don't know why you're talking about it like it's some kind of entitlement. There's plenty of arguments on both sides - this is like any other sports discussion: DH/No DH, day v. night World Series games, how much should the QB be protected in the NFL, etc.

Though, at the end of the day, this is all obnoxious grandstanding, it will NEVER happen. It's a huge waste of time and an insult to taxpayers that they're even having committees on such a thing.

molson · 05-02-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

If Congress doesn't get involved with the steroid issue, nothing happens, and we still have a game acting like there's no problem.

Congress didn't do anything about steroids, aside from some committee meetings and a report. Certainly no actual legislation that I'm aware of.

In congresspeople want to have an opinion about playoffs, great, everyone can have an opinion. But for the love of god, they shouldn't force their opinion about a playoff system on the country.

molson · 05-02-2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Fo

11 conference winners, five wild cards determined by something similar to the current BCS rankings, seeding done by the same rankings.

Anything that includes the Sun Belt Champion in a final 16 is a complete joke.

molson · 05-02-2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

If a bad system won't change on its own, it's the job of the government to make it change.

It's not a "bad" system if it's the system that works for most of the participants.

The purpose of major college athletics is to make money.

molson · 05-02-2009, 10:45 AM

It's interesting that the proposal is for an 8 team playoff. How does that help access? How often is a non-BCS team one of the best 8 teams in the country? How does this increase access for the Sun Belt conference? If Troy gets into a playoff over the #2 team in the SEC, maybe the SEC should go whining to congress, because that clearly isn't fair either.

What about independents? How can we guarantee fair access to Army and Navy? Maybe the winner of the Army/Navy game should get in? What if Congress decides that the service academies in the playoffs is good for national morale, and just legislates them in?

Congress needs to find something more important to do. I have some suggestions if they can't think of anything.

Big Fo · 05-02-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

Anything that includes the Sun Belt Champion in a final 16 is a complete joke.

It would be much better than the current system, which is the real joke.

molson · 05-02-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Fo

It would be much better than the current system, which is the real joke.

That's just an opinion. And it's not shared by those who have the right to actually execute the idea. You're just a fan. You can spend your money somewhere else if you don't like it.

Who should pay the money lost by the NCAA, bowls, conferences, and universities if they're forced to have a playoff? Taxpayers?

This isn't about fraudulent advertising or whatever. It's just about preference. Maybe you don't like how a movie ends. The government shouldn't force the movie to end a different way. Maybe you don't like that McDonald's stops serving breakfast at 10:30. The government shouldn't force them to change that.

larrymcg421 · 05-02-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

Anything that includes the Sun Belt Champion in a final 16 is a complete joke.

I disagree. Sure, almost any team in the SEC or the Big 10 would certainly be better, but they didn't win their conference and thus got eliminated. If you win your conference, you get a shot no matter what. If you don't win, then you might get a wilcard spot, but don't count on it.

I still think it was ridiculous that Nebraska played in the title game in 2001 when Colorado won the conference and beat them 62-36.

ISiddiqui · 05-02-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm not ok with the gov't stepping in and dictating what our sports do. They had no business getting involved with steroids in baseball and they have no business telling the NCAA what they call their championship game or how they should go about choosing it.

This position is ok, but then the government should be out completely. That means no anti-trust protection, no public funding for stadiums, etc.

larrymcg421 · 05-02-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

Who should pay the money lost by the NCAA, bowls, conferences, and universities if they're forced to have a playoff? Taxpayers?

I'd argue that a 16 team playoff would make tons of money, and bowls would still exists for teams that don't qualify.

05-01-2009, 04:27 PM	#4
molson General Manager Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Mountains	So the theory is that calling the NCAA champion "national champion" is fraudulent or misleading? And why should Boise St. and Utah have access, and not division II or III schools? Isn't it the NCAA that allows those schools to be division I in the first place? Worst case, the NCAA could just change the name, or promote the BCS schools to a higher, super-division. I'm also thinking I should get some kind of punitive damage award in years when the Super Bowl isn't really "Super". Last edited by molson : 05-01-2009 at 04:27 PM.

05-01-2009, 04:29 PM	#5
Big Fo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005	Go big government, 16-team playoff ftw edit: it looks like they want an 8-team playoff Last edited by Big Fo : 05-01-2009 at 04:32 PM.

05-01-2009, 05:11 PM	#8
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	I think this whole scenario is bullshit unless the government wants to take over the whole thing. Let the government determine the schedules of every game, let them pick the playoff teams, let them decide who plays on television, etc., etc. Hell, I'd give them control over television scheduling just to see which conferences get the most national coverage. Given how much they're sticking their noses into this, I would hope that I could see bottom feeders from the Sun Belt just as much as the Big Ten. Michigan vs. Ohio State, my ass. Give me Louisiana-Monroe vs. Western Kentucky! __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

05-01-2009, 09:18 PM	#22
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Well, you guys have fun. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

05-01-2009, 10:00 PM	#23
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	A playoff system is long overdue, it should have been implemented when the NCAA put in scholarship limitations on every team. I think they should have an auto bid for each of the conference winners. If you don't make it then you can play in a bowl game. Speaking of bowl games they need to be reduced because it is oversaturated right now. __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

05-01-2009, 04:19 PM	#2
molson General Manager Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Mountains	Unbelievable. Maybe Congress should just determine the national champion. Last edited by molson : 05-01-2009 at 04:24 PM.

05-01-2009, 04:23 PM	#3
BradS n00b Join Date: Nov 2005	Whatever it takes!

05-01-2009, 04:35 PM	#6
BradS n00b Join Date: Nov 2005	You make some interesting points but my point is more in line with teams like an undefeated Auburn(few years back) who were shut out with what amounts to splitting hairs or a few less style points. BCS system is lacking in more than one way.

05-01-2009, 06:07 PM	#9
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	System ain't fixing itself, that's for sure. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

05-01-2009, 07:53 PM	#12
Atocep Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Puyallup, WA	MLB should have to change the name of the World Series and professional sports in the US should stop calling their championships a world championship.

05-01-2009, 08:21 PM	#17
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	I would support Hitler if he was for this at this point. It is beyond ridiculous. __________________ My YouTube channel My Twitch channel My Sharona

05-01-2009, 08:29 PM	#19
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	The system should be changed, but the government shouldn't force it to be. They should stay out of it.

05-01-2009, 10:24 PM	#25
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	so are they going to then mandate a 256 team basketball tournament so "almost" every team has a chance there too?

05-01-2009, 10:26 PM	#27
Big Fo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005	In basketball all a team has to do is win its conference. In football a team can win the conference unbeaten for the season and still get screwed. There is a big difference.

05-01-2009, 10:37 PM	#29
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	I don't have a problem with a "playoff" I also don't have a problem with the system as it is now I have a problem with how the selection will happen for the participants for the "playoff". the bill wants to "make it fair" but there isn't a way to do that.

05-01-2009, 10:39 PM	#30
Big Fo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005	winning the conference = winning the conference tournament that decides the conference champion (unless there is no such tournament and regular season standings decide the winner)

05-02-2009, 10:45 AM	#45
molson General Manager Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Mountains	It's interesting that the proposal is for an 8 team playoff. How does that help access? How often is a non-BCS team one of the best 8 teams in the country? How does this increase access for the Sun Belt conference? If Troy gets into a playoff over the #2 team in the SEC, maybe the SEC should go whining to congress, because that clearly isn't fair either. What about independents? How can we guarantee fair access to Army and Navy? Maybe the winner of the Army/Navy game should get in? What if Congress decides that the service academies in the playoffs is good for national morale, and just legislates them in? Congress needs to find something more important to do. I have some suggestions if they can't think of anything. Last edited by molson : 05-02-2009 at 10:48 AM.

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