minimum duration for an epic song?

[cthomer5000]

In your opinion, what is the minimum length a song would need to be in order to be considered an 'epic?'

I don't mean in the "whoa, this Bon Jovi song is epic!" after you've had 7 beers sort of way.

I mean, to be of epic length, how long does a musicial composition need to be in your opinion?

I'm talking strictly duration, not quality or type of song.

How long?

[Kodos]

Five hours.

[Lathum]

depends on the amount of LSD taken

[Groundhog]

Well, I don't know that it's that simple. I'd say 10 minutes is a nice, easy round number to classify something as epic, but then I think some 8 minute songs can be quite epic too. It really depends on how the song builds. To me, an Epic is a song that is longer than usual, and develops in to something bigger throughout its duration.

As much as I dislike the song, 'November Rain' is a prime example of a non-prog rock epic.

[DeToxRox]

7 + Minutes.

[MJ4H]

Dude, there is some seriously long music out there (on the order of many hours), so to be considered epic in length, it needs to be a minimum of 30 minutes. Seriously, less than that is trivial in length.

[cthomer5000]

so far we've got:

5 hours
10 minutes
7 minutes
30 minutes

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

7 + Minutes.

+1

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Dude, there is some seriously long music out there (on the order of many hours), so to be considered epic in length, it needs to be a minimum of 30 minutes. Seriously, less than that is trivial in length.

Depends on what we are talking about. If it's classical music, yeah, there is some long stuff out there.

I assumed we're talking about the broad 'rock' genre, and in this case epic just means 'long', in which case yeah, there is still some long shit, but stuff doesn't need to be 30+ minutes to be epic. The average rock song is what, 3-4 mintes long. To be twice that duration is sort of epic comparitively, but to triple or more that duration makes it fairly epic length wise I think.

[MJ4H]

OK 10 minutes for pop music then. 30 minutes for more serious music.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

OK 10 minutes for pop music then. 30 minutes for more serious music.

Define serious music?

The group 'Yes' have a bunch of songs around the 20 minute mark that are fairly Epic. Jethro Tull as well. I'd consider them fairly Epic non-pop stuff that is less than 30 mins long but still very epic duration-wise.

[lighthousekeeper]

my favoritest epic song clocks in at 32:13

[rowech]

8+ minutes...they're are some fantastic songs in the 6-8 minute range but I'm not sure they're epic. I think about how many of Metallica's greatest songs are over 8 minutes.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Define serious music?

The group 'Yes' have a bunch of songs around the 20 minute mark that are fairly Epic. Jethro Tull as well. I'd consider them fairly Epic non-pop stuff that is less than 30 mins long but still very epic duration-wise.

I said more serious. As in more serious than pop. Pop being music designed to appeal to a broad audience (by definition).

[cthomer5000]

So longer is always more serious? Does the inverse hold true? Were the Ramones among the least serious bands of all time?

[MJ4H]

Um, no, that is nothing like what I said.

[Groundhog]

So the definition of serious music = not written to appeal to a broad audience. Would you consider something like prog rock serious music then? There are bands today that release new prog rock albums, and there audience is purely prog rock fans, a rather small niche and not at all a broad audience. Or chamber music, or death metal, or avant garde, etc.

[MJ4H]

Sure. Look, it is obviously a sliding scale, like anything in music. There aren't hard and fast divisions of what is considered pop and what is considered more serious/less pop. The thing I try to keep in mind is what the composer's intentions were. If there were a large number of creative sacrifices made in order to broaden the appeal, I would say it is more pop music. Just a personal definition, but I'd say one with some thought behind it.

But, it seems relevant to the topic. I would definitely have a different "epic" scale with regard to duration for pop and serious music. For instance, the 1812 Overture, to me, seems more like pop music than serious music, but it is pretty epic in length for that type of composition. Much longer than most music that is designed for that broad of an appeal.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Define serious music?

[cuervo72]

7:00 sounds about right to me too.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Sure. Look, it is obviously a sliding scale, like anything in music. There aren't hard and fast divisions of what is considered pop and what is considered more serious/less pop. The thing I try to keep in mind is what the composer's intentions were. If there were a large number of creative sacrifices made in order to broaden the appeal, I would say it is more pop music. Just a personal definition, but I'd say one with some thought behind it.

But, it seems relevant to the topic. I would definitely have a different "epic" scale with regard to duration for pop and serious music. For instance, the 1812 Overture, to me, seems more like pop music than serious music, but it is pretty epic in length for that type of composition. Much longer than most music that is designed for that broad of an appeal.

I get what you're saying, and clearly no number we come up with will be all-encompassing. But since we don't have the time to sit down and evaluate the artistic intent of every artist, let alone song, ever written, i'm trying to come up with a 'rule of thumb' that would give us a basic number. Most songs one might consider 'epic' will be as long or longer than the number we arrive at.

Personally, I think it's about 8 minutes, but I had this discussion with a few friends and none of us felt 100% secure in our own decisions.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

I said more serious.

[Abe Sargent]

To me a song has to be more than just merely long to be epic, espeically in today's age of remixes that are much longer than the song. Is Ides of March's Symphony for Eleanor epic because it's from a 60's album and clocks in at 9:42?

On the other hand, I'd vote for Enigma's Principles of Lust as epic and it's 11:44, but it feels epic to me.

Driving the Last Spike by Genesis - nope.
The Fall by Way out West - yup
Halcyon & On & On by Orbital - nah
Seven Cities by Solar Stone, even at 6:09? - Absolutely

November Rain - GNR? Tuesday Afternoon - The Moody Blues? Aja - Steely Dan? Beginnings - Chicago? Blue Monday - New Order? Hey Jude - The Beetles?

I mean there are just so many questions. I think each person;s gotta go with their gut.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

To me a song has to be more than just merely long to be epic

Sure, fine. But as stated in the title... what is the minimum duration a song could be for you to even ponder whether it is an epic?

3 minutes? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? 20 minutes?

Surely there is a number low enough you would say 'no way, it cant possibly be an epic due to it's short length'

I'm seeking that number...your exact mental cutoff point.

[Abe Sargent]

I don;t know. 6? 5? I could see a song that's really epic in tone and style at those lengths hitting, but it'd have to special.

[cthomer5000]

I'll roll with 8 minutes as my rule of thumb, though I know for a fact I would put some shorter songs in the epic category.

"Carry The Zero" by Built To Spill is an epic to me, and that song is 5:44... but that's such a rare example in my musical experience that i'm fine with setting my bar at a level I know is closer to the mark more often.

I could probably be convinced to drop it down to 7... but looking at my itunes library I see many songs in the 7-8 range that I just consider 'long'. It seems like once you hit 8, there is almost certainly the elements of an epic (distinct musical/tonal changes, etc)

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Tuesday Afternoon - The Moody Blues?

I was thinking Nights in White Satin, which comes in under eight minutes at 7:38.

Layla is just over 7:00 as well.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I was thinking Nights in White Satin, which comes in under eight minutes at 7:38.

Layla is just over 7:00 as well.

Which brings up a point - what about an album like Days of Future Passed, which Tuesday Afternoon and Nights are both on, where it's one big song with no interruptions except when you change sides (which you don;t even need to do with modern CDs and such).

[stevew]

What's this?
What is this.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The group 'Yes' have a bunch of songs around the 20 minute mark that are fairly Epic.

20 minutes of that shrill voice, that would make my ears bleed.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

20 minutes of that shrill voice, that would make my ears bleed.

lol... to each his own.

Though having said that, I listened to Rush's 2112 last night. Yeesh. 20 minutes of Geddy Lee's voice...

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by stevew

What's this?
What is this.

[Fidatelo]

Dola

The real answer is either 7 minutes. Or 42.

[Karlifornia]

Muse has an epic with "Knights Of Cydonia" how long is that? About 6 minutes? I'll say 6+

[Marc Vaughan]

No minimum length - just a loud rocking beat imho ...

[Julio Riddols]

I'd go with a hard 8. Epic songs to me need to have shifting qualities and should tell a hell of a story though.. even if its just in the notes..

And even though I like them a lot, I think a lot of The Mars Volta music that exceeds the 8 minute mark is just a bunch of random (if skilled) "guitar wankery". Not sure I would say its epic..

So maybe you need more than just a length of time to truly determine epic status.

For strictly time based definitions, however, I prefer 8 minutes.

[Marc Vaughan]

Actually according to my standard definition its a minimum of 3 mins 49 seconds as thats how long Mr. Bowie takes to sing Star Man live apparently .. and if that isn't a 'classic' nothing is

[MJ4H]

I think you misread 'epic' as 'classic'

[Sgran]

According to neurologists, there is a point where short-term alpha waves are coerced into elongated wavelengths that result in a feeling of euphoria commonly referred to being submerged in a given experience, ie. the feeling of epnicity. This sensation changes with latitude and is strongly affected by the earth's magnetic field. I don't want to bore you with all the details, but a good rule of thumb is that at sea level, the feeling of epnicity is reached during an uninterupted listening of 7 minutes, 12 seconds.

[MJ4H]

EPNICITY!!!

[BYU 14]

A few good Southern Rock songs fall into this catagory. Surprised there has been no mention of Freebird or Green Grass and High Tides Forever.

[Butter]

6 minutes +.