Pro Football HOF Finalists

[miami_fan]

Pick your class of 2009 from the candidates below. Remember at least 4, no more than 7.


Cris Carter
Dermontti Dawson
Richard Dent
Russ Grimm
Bob Hayes
Claude Humphrey
Cortez Kennedy
Bob Kuechenberg
Randall McDaniel
John Randle
Andre Reed
Shannon Sharpe
Bruce Smith
Paul Tagliabue
Derrick Thomas
Ralph Wilson
Rod Woodson

[Toddzilla]

Bruce Smith
Richard Dent
Bob Kuechenberg
Russ Grimm

[Draft Dodger]

Carter, Sharpe, Thomas, Smith, Woodson

[rowech]

Cris Carter
Dermonti Dawson
Bruce Smith
Derrick Thomas
Rod Woodson
Randal McDaniel
Shannon Sharpe

[JPhillips]

I refuse to participate until the Sabols are in the Hall.

[Crim]

Cris Carter
Dermontti Dawson
Richard Dent
Shannon Sharpe
Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson

[JediKooter]

Cris Carter
Richard Dent
Shannon Sharpe
Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson

Paul Tagliabue
Ralph Wilson

[RedKingGold]

Rod Woodson - Could take claim to best defensive secondary player in league history. At a minimum, he's top-five.

Bruce Smith - Similarly, Smith has to be among the most premier defensive linemen in the league.

Ray Guy - Yeah, I know he's not on the list. But, all you have to do is remember Mike Scifres performance against the Colts to see the impact of a strong punter. Guy was far-and-away the best one in league history.

Cris Carter - Head-scratcher he wasn't a first-ballot guy. True, a lot of receivers from the 1980's-1990's-2000's are putting up similar numbers, but Carter has the longevity and production to be considered one of the top five receivers from that era.

Dermotti Dawson - If you could put together an All-Decade offensive line from the 90's, Dawsom had to be your center. He absolutely owned that position for a long, long time.

Paul Tagliabue - Presided over very tumultous times (the era of free agency and salary cap; constant team relocations) but still guided the NFL to become the most prominent sports league in America. Granted, the 94' baseball strike and retirement of Jordan had a lot to do with the NFL's emergence to the top. However, subtle maneuvers like enhancing the promotion of the NFL Draft and laying the groundwork for NFL Network also put the NFL on top.

Shannon Sharpe - Closest call of them all, but the top-five tight ends in NFL history would probably include Sharpe along with Winslow, Newsome, Gonzales, and a bunch of other guys.

Who just missed?

-Derrick Thomas - career just too short for me (tragically)
-Andre Reed - probably deserves to get in, but the backlog is too thick.

Granted, I'm young and a child of 1980's-90's football, so I'm biased, but I think those six above (and Ray Guy) have seperated themselves at their positions.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I refuse to participate until the Sabols are in the Hall.

Absolutely. It's a crime that the NFL is trying to phase out Sabol and NFL Films.

[Travis]

I really hope Tez makes it in. Gets penalized for playing on some awful teams but the guy was an absolute monster on the field and deserves to end up in the Hall.

[ntndeacon]

Cris Carter
Cortez Kennedy
Bob Kuechenberg
Bruce Smith
Derrick Thomas
Rod Woodson

[Cringer]

Richard Dent
Shannon Sharpe
Bruce Smith
Paul Tagliabue
Ralph Wilson
Rod Woodson

[bhlloy]

With the proviso that I am biased towards the guys I saw play:

Woodson - lock
Smith - lock
Tagliabue - it's a crime he wasn't a first year inductee
Sharpe - Easily one of the top 5 TE's all time. Pretty much a lock.
Carter - has the resume, he's in
Grimm/Kuechenburg - they probably both deserve to be in, but I only have room for one of them. I never saw either of them play, toss a coin. I guess Kuechenburg gets in for longevity, although Grimm made more pro-bowls/all pro.
Thomas - probably doesn't have the resume, but I get a sentimental pick. One of the best ever at OLB if his career wasn't cut short

Dawson, Randle and Wilson belong there eventually, but not this year. I don't know why, but I have this image in my head of Cortez Kennedy as very overrated. Stats seem to back that up for me - one dominant year, never went over 8 sacks again.

And it's an insult that Guy isn't there yet, never mind not even on the ballot.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Tagliabue - it's a crime he wasn't a first year inductee

I'd read that Tagliabue didn't get in because Sid Hartman was really pushing for everyone to elect him, and many of the other writers seem to hate Sid.

[MrDNA]

I am pulling for Derrick Thomas so hard. I loved watching that guy. We'll see...

[kcchief19]

Derrick Thomas had six fewer sacks in 11 seasons than Lawrence Taylor had in 13. I think he deserves it.

[Swaggs]

I think that these are guys that deserve to be in, at some point:

Cris Carter
Dermontti Dawson
John Randle
Shannon Sharpe
Bruce Smith
Paul Tagliabue
Derrick Thomas
Ralph Wilson
Rod Woodson

If I had to pick for this season, I would vote for Carter, Dawson, Sharpe, Smith, Thomas, and Woodson. My guess is that Woodson, Smith, Carter, Tagliabue, and one or two veterans' picks will get the nod this season.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Derrick Thomas had six fewer sacks in 11 seasons than Lawrence Taylor had in 13. I think he deserves it.

It is ridiculous that he was not a first ballot hall of famer.

[stevew]

Modern-
Dawson-biased pick for the homer in me

Woodson-duh. One of my faves. Long and excellent body of work.

Smith-duh, possibly the GoAT at his position. 34 DE too. Probably has 50 more sacks if he played in a 43

Carter-if Monk is in, he should be on every ballot

Sharpe-close call but was a great player and I think he has 3 rings

Reed-close call but he was excellent on one of the best offenses ever

Vet-
Hayes-basically for impact on the game moreso than statistical performance. I mean he basically led to the creation of the zone defense with his speed and ability

Derek Thomas gets left off again for his off the field shit

[Ryche]

Woodson
Smith
Carter
Sharpe
Tagliabue
McDaniel - He and Larry Allen were the two best guards of their time. Maybe the best pulling guard ever and never got beat on the pass rush.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cris Carter
Dermontti Dawson
Bob Hayes
Shannon Sharpe
Bruce Smith
Russ Grimm
Rod Woodson

edited to reflect my five votes (per the five, not seven, info)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

It is ridiculous that he was not a first ballot hall of famer.

Agreed. There's absolutely NO reason that Derrick Thomas should not be a HOF inductee by now.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Shannon Sharpe
Bruce Smith

These two are sure fire, no debate, first ballot guys, I would assume. Certainly Smith is, but Sharpe might be in the same category.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Cris Carter
Rod Woodson

I would think most people would consider them in the same category, but apparently some do not.

That leaves 3 spots for others. All are somewhat deserving, with each having their favorites. I'd pick Hayes, Grimm and Dent, but can see people arguing for Reed, Thomas, Dawson - just about anyone on the list.

There is much debate about the process, and whether it ends up with a more representative hall than baseball's. Personally, I hate the hard numeric restrictions. Let the debates continue, but let the committee elect who they want. Especially grating in combination with that is the lumping in of Tagliabue and Wilson with players. Can't we just say that all original AFL/NFL owners, or those with 20+ year tenures, and all commissioners just get in. Why take spots away from deserving players.

EDIT: Just read the hall of fame voting rules. The numbers 4 to 7 are the totals, but a maximum of 5 from the modern era can be admitted. To get to 7, up to two "senior" candidates can be named.

[Dutch]

Cris Carter
Bruce Smith
Paul Tagliabue
Rod Woodson
Richard Dent
Shannon Sharpe
Derrick Thomas

I'd put all 7 of these cats in. Top 4 are in bold.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Agreed. There's absolutely NO reason that Derrick Thomas should not be a HOF inductee by now.

I'm sure killing someone driving wrecklessly and leaving behind an army of baby mommas might be reasons for some.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm sure killing someone driving wrecklessly and leaving behind an army of baby mommas might be reasons for some.

Derrick died because of his poor judgment due to speeding and failure to put on his seat belt.. The other man who died had similar poor judgment when he failed to put on his seat belt. The police on the scene were clear that both of them would be alive today if they just would have buckled up.

In regards to his kids, I don't remember any policy that kept a player out of the HOF based on how many children he fathered. When he was alive, he took care of all of the kids financially at some level. Obviously, his premature death cut short that income source and created a problem. With that said, we'll likely have to trim down the number of players in the HOF if that becomes a criteria.

Derrick did a ton of charitable things for others that were never publicly recognized until after his death. He had his faults, but he was a great influence on both the team and the community.

On the football field, there were few that were better at blindsiding a QB. 9 Pro Bowl appearances in 11 seasons and his statistics speak volumes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

a great influence on both the team and the community.

Seven children by five women, none of whom was his wife?

Hell, he didn't just influence a community, he generated a community.

[Raiders Army]

You know what we should do? We should have a poster volunteer to present each player's case in a different thread and then let FOFC vote.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Seven children by five women, none of whom was his wife?

Hell, he didn't just influence a community, he generated a community.

So what's the baby mamma limit to get into the HOF? Pacman and hundreds of current and former NFL players want to know.

Given that Derrick was tragically robbed of his father figure early in life, I think he did the best he could. If anything, Derrick is a sobering example of how tough the loss of a parent's influence via death or divorce can be on a young child.............

He would get up early on Saturday mornings, drive to the local library and read to children he didn't know.

He would walk into the hospital with teddy bears in both arms and cry when the parents would call later and tell him their boy had died clutching his football card to his chest. He would go from locker to locker, demanding at least $100 from each of his rich teammates because this was the week he had decided he wanted to raise $14,000 to feed 750 families. He would pay to send 18 strangers to college, just because, and he would write a single check to cover the $61,500 in library fines accrued by Kansas City kids. He would be on his way to practice, making a cell phone call to McDonald's here and another to Hyatt there, and next thing you know 700 inner-city Miami kids were at a camp instead of on the streets. Derrick Thomas would....

"He would do so much that nobody knew about,'' Dorecia Tepe said Tuesday afternoon, just after learning Thomas had died. "I can tell you he was like an angel God sent to protect our son.'' You want to know how valuable a man we lost Tuesday? Dorecia Tepe can tell you, between the sobs. Her boy had AIDS. Philip was dying a lonely, painful death in 1994. An entire basketball tournament being canceled in Lone Wolf, Okla., because nobody wanted to play with her son, this adorable little outcast. Derrick Thomas wasn't the type of man who would just read about this in the newspaper. Derrick Thomas was the type of man who would go out and fix it. So Thomas sent Philip tickets to one of his games, plus a limo to pick him up. He took Philip golfing, buying his clubs and bags and shoes. He sent him a Sega and a football signed by Joe Montana for Christmas. And all those kids in Lone Wolf, Okla., you should have seen how jealous they got when the picture appeared in the local newspaper, Derrick Thomas rubbing Philip's head at a charity game. Philip didn't need to play basketball with those kids anymore because, well, he was playing with Barry Sanders and Thurman Thomas.

"He helped my son so much,'' Dorecia Tepe said Tuesday. "Derrick was like a bright light in our life when things felt very dark. How many people as important as Derrick would take time out of their busy schedules to make time for a young man they didn't even know? He held a very special place in our hearts, the way he cared, and he did that for a lot of people, not just us. I just wrote him a letter the other day reminding him how much we loved him.''

Cringing and convulsing and crying, the pain unbearable, Philip knew he didn't have much time left in March of 1994. His mother says today that she is convinced, no doubt, that Philip was waiting to see Thomas one more time before he died. So Thomas came in on a Tuesday, arriving on a plane he borrowed from a friend, and gave Philip one of his All-Pro jerseys -- the only time he had ever given one of those away. Philip smiled and wept. He died less than 48 hours later.

"Why does this have to happen to someone like Derrick?'' Dorecia said through the sobs Tuesday. "Why? Why? Why? Why do we have to lose his kind?'' We didn't merely lose a local success story or a football star Tuesday morning. What we lost was a hero.

Thomas grew up in Miami with a whole lot of anger, losing his father at the age of 5 when the surface-to-air missile hit the B-52 Stratofortress over Vietnam. Derrick was arrested twice, for burglarizing a home and stealing a car, and was so bad that his mother and grandmother would spend their nights praying in the darkness, hoping he wasn't at the other end of those gunshots and sirens. Thomas' mother knew her husband's death had scarred Derrick, but she didn't know how deeply until hearing Derrick talk about it on television...from the White House, where Derrick's Third and Long Foundation was being honored as the 832nd of President Bush's 1,000 points of light.

An interesting thing happened to Thomas on the path toward lifelong delinquency. So many South Florida judges and teachers and coaches and parents stepped in his way, guiding him in another direction, that he later dedicated his life to doing the same, which is why he was always in those libraries and hospitals. "People cared for me, so now I care back,'' Thomas told me back in 1998. "It's not important what I do in this game. What matters is 20 years from now, if I'm walking down the street and a doctor or lawyer or teacher says I made a difference in their life. Having the most sacks in NFL history? That'll be great. Winning a Super Bowl? That'll be great. Breaking the single-season sack record? That'll be great. But I want to be remembered as someone who made a difference.''

You'll forever be remembered that way by an awful lot of people, Derrick. Like Dorecia Tepe, for example. Because friends told her she should bury her son Philip in a suit. But she chose a Chiefs jersey.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

You know what we should do? We should have a poster volunteer to present each player's case in a different thread and then let FOFC vote.

Or just start a new 'I only have one baby mamma' HOF to cover the morality police.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Here's a much better article than deals with the reality of trying to create some sort of Saint Thomas.

Derrick Thomas: The Lives He Helped and the Lives He Ignored | Insight on the News | Find Articles at BNET
Derrick Thomas, the nine-time Pro-Bowl linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs, died of a massive blood clot Feb. 8, a little more than two weeks after he was paralyzed in a car accident. There has been an extended period of grieving for the 33-year-old fallen football hero.

One eulogy after another mentioned Thomas' tireless money-raising efforts for a reading club that assisted urban kids with reading deficiency and a variety of other charitable causes. He was a poster boy for the United Way and a recipient of the Boy Scouts' Role Model Award, the Sports Illustrated for Kids Good Sport Award, the President George Bush Point of Light Award, National Football League Man of the Year Award, the Byron "Whizzer" White Humanitarian Award and the Veterans of Foreign Wars Man of the Year Award.

Pete Morris, the Chiefs' assistant director of public relations, said, "You could go on for days telling about the good things he did." When Thomas' body was placed in a tent at Arrowhead Stadium, 23,000 people filed through to pay their last respects.

At another memorial service Chiefs' president Carl Peterson noted that Thomas "tried to be an inspiration to the youth of today who are making the same difficult decisions he had to make 15 years ago."

What Peterson neglected to point out was what kind of decisions Thomas made in the last 15 years. He did not point out that Thomas has seven children with five different women, none of whom was his wife. His children live in Miami, Kansas City and Lawrence, Kan. In praising Thomas's many charitable acts, the eulogies omitted the personal discipline that should accompany bringing life into the world.

Thomas was a surrogate father to many children but was not a father to his own children. He spent Christmas handing out gifts to poor kids, but he wasn't around to offer solace for his own kids. Yet this is the man who was given a trunk-load of awards, praised as a man to be emulated.

Some might contend his personal life is no one's business. But they are wrong. Those seven children are somebody's business, and they had every right to expect care and concern from their father.

However, these are unusual times. In some American subcultures there is status in producing babies, even if they aren't nurtured by their fathers. Professional sport has become a haven for such activity. One National Basketball Association team of 12 players had 32 illegitimate children, and that may be closer to the norm than the league office would like to admit.

Yet many sociologists contend absentee fathers may represent the single biggest problem in child adjustment. How can a boy know what it means to be a man if there isn't a man's guidance in the home? It hardly is coincidental that teen-age boys without fathers gravitate to the senior members of urban gangs. They are in search of the fathers they never had.

In the United States at the moment -- with the rate of illegitimacy leveling off -- two-thirds of the black population and one-quarter of the total population are born out of wedlock. More than 80 percent of those in prison were born as illegitimate children. This is a national disgrace.

Yet, remarkably, Thomas is held up as a model. It is models like Thomas that represent the problem. If elites believe fathering children outside of marriage without responsibility is appropriate, why shouldn't young men searching for ways to assert their manhood adopt the same method? Instead of moral rectitude, elites now offer depravity.

One should commend Thomas for his play on the field and his charitable gestures off the field. But one should condemn his irresponsible behavior toward the women in his life and the children he brought into this world.

[Senator]

Ok, so most of us were too young, but Bob Hayes CHANGED the game. Everyone with any sense of the history of football knows this. Put away only what you SAW and think about it in terms of game changing individuals.

Also, agree with the comments that the SABOLS are getting the screw job by the NFL. They are the reason the NFL had any foothold with the average viewer. They need to be in the Hall of Fame post haste.

RAY GUY, RAY GUY, RAY GUY!!! A travesty.

The other guys are easily deserved, but let's not move on until we make sure we haven't forgotten anyone in our mad rush to make 90's players Hall of Famers.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Here's a much better article than deals with the reality of trying to create some sort of Saint Thomas.

That article mirrors what I stated. It mentioned that he financially supported his children. It mentions that he also had many charitable moments. It also mentioned that absent fathers are epidemic amongst professional athletes. It also stated that he was the poster child of what can happen when kids don't have two parental role models. He didn't have a father, and he did the same thing when he became a father from an emotional standpoint because he had no idea how to handle it. No one was making a saint of him.

All of that said, his credentials are plenty good enough to be in the HOF and his personal life has no relevance to that decision. If it does, we need to start yanking players out of the HOF.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Senator

Ok, so most of us were too young, but Bob Hayes CHANGED the game. Everyone with any sense of the history of football knows this. Put away only what you SAW and think about it in terms of game changing individuals.

Also, agree with the comments that the SABOLS are getting the screw job by the NFL. They are the reason the NFL had any foothold with the average viewer. They need to be in the Hall of Fame post haste.

RAY GUY, RAY GUY, RAY GUY!!! A travesty.

I agree with you on both player counts that they deserve to get in.

But remember, only 5 "modern era" players can get in. They take the list of 17, vote to get it to 15, then vote to get it to 10, then vote to get it to 5. So, to even be considered, they need to be top 5 on the list. Not sure Ray Guy (or, probably Hayes) is ever going to get there.

And it seems they don't have the "correct previous wrongs before letting new guys in" attitude at all. It seems rather the opposite - they feel there is more of a backlog of "modern era" entrants for their 5 slots than the 2 (ancient era?) veteran type slots. It seems that Hayes and

As for The Sabols, they are caught in a numbers game, probably like Tags. Sure, they contributed, but the bias seems to be towards players, and there's no way Sabol gets in ahead of Tags or Wilson.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

You know what we should do? We should have a poster volunteer to present each player's case in a different thread and then let FOFC vote.

I had a simliar thought. Up or down on the two senior selections, then reduction votes on the modern era from 15 to 10 to 5 etc.

[boberot]

Originally Posted by Ryche

Woodson
Smith
Carter
Sharpe
Tagliabue
McDaniel - He and Larry Allen were the two best guards of their time. Maybe the best pulling guard ever and never got beat on the pass rush.

This is my exact list. McDaniel was as consistent as they come -- extremely durable and a ridiculous 12 consecutive Pro Bowl appearances.

[molson]

Announced Today:

Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson
Ralph Wilson
Derrick Thomas
Randall McDaniel
Bob Hayes

The NFL HOF always seems kind of random, and the selection process if far more complicated than it is in baseball.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Samdari

As for The Sabols, they are caught in a numbers game, probably like Tags. Sure, they contributed, but the bias seems to be towards players, and there's no way Sabol gets in ahead of Tags or Wilson.

I sort of agree, but I think the major problem is simpler. They don't have a high profile champion in the room. From everything I've head the guys that get in have a strong, powerful advocate lobbying for them.

[SnowMan]

Aw, maybe next year Tez!

[Swaggs]

Glad to see Woodson make it in as a first ballot guy. Very happy to see DT finally get the "call," as I think he certainly deserved to be in on the first ballot (Not that Tippett is underserving, but how did he get in before DT?).

Hope to see Dermontti Dawson get the call before he gets too "old" (in NFL linemen terms).

[Tasan]

Its about time Bob Hayes got in. A total game changer that nobody seemed to really care about much.

[stevew]

The classes over the next few years are stacked. You have to assume Emmitt and Rice get in. Then the next year has prime time, bettis, Curtis Martin and a few other viable guys. Basically it will be very hard to get in for the near future.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Everytime I read Cortez Kennedy, I always remember the NFL on ESPN commercial (early/mid 90's?) that had the teams on the old electric football, and Kennedy's player was 3 times the size of everyone else.

[Ryche]

Very happy to see McDaniel make it. A bit surprised as well, figured he'd be overlooked. Great guy too, he's been working in schools since he retired as a paraprof and substitute teacher.

[Senator]

Originally Posted by Tasan

Its about time Bob Hayes got in. A total game changer that nobody seemed to really care about much.

[stevew]

Marshall Faulk is in there somewhere over the next two years

Really needs to change to 6. Players, one contributor and one vet

[kcchief19]

Yet many sociologists contend absentee fathers may represent the single biggest problem in child adjustment. How can a boy know what it means to be a man if there isn't a man's guidance in the home?.

Sorry for the threadjack but this is one of the most patronizing, insulting and ridiculous things I have read in a quite while.

I never knew my father. He was gone before I was born. I have no problem being a man. The contention that you have to have a man around you to grow up and not be in a gang or be a loser is an excuse for bad behavior -- it's not his fault, his dad wasn't around. That's ridiculous.

What intelligent sociologists will tell you is that kids grow up better in loving households -- a kid will grow up better with a single mom than with a married couple that fights all the time.

But here's the faulty logic of the article: Derrick Thomas was a guy because he was a bad father who should have been there for his kids. Uh, why would you want a bad father around his kids MORE?

Derrick Thomas was a great football player who couldn't keep his dick in his pants. He wasn't necessarily a great guy but he did a lot of great things. It would have been great if it had been a good father but that wasn't how the guy was wired.

In the end, none of it matters when it comes to the Hall of Fame. I guarantee you the NFL Hall of Fame is full of bad fathers -- guys who were at practice, on the road or screwing around instead of spending time with their families.

[Danny]

Of course there are always exceptions, but statistically on average children do fare far better in two parent homes.

[Danny]

And absentee fathers is a huge societal problem. Again. there are many cases where an individual overcomes that, often times by identifying with another male role model (Uncle, Grandpa, Coach, etc...). Still, you can't use the exceptions to ignore what is a concern.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

In the end, none of it matters when it comes to the Hall of Fame.

Which is to the detriment of the NFL Hall of Fame.