GM-Chrysler Merger

[DeToxRox]

Sounds like it's a done deal. Chrysler will take their Jeep and Van lines to GM, and GM will absolve the rest of the company.

I am curious to see how this changes things for GM and Ford.

Lots of people are about to lose their jobs I'm afraid.

[Flasch186]

yessir

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Dammit.

Looks like I'm going to switch to Ford. That is until General Monopoly swallows them whole too.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Dammit.

Looks like I'm going to switch to Ford. That is until General Monopoly swallows them whole too.

Eh, this is just to save Chrysler from going under completely. They had nothing going for them. They were behind in sales, had nothing new coming that could turn their fortunes, and were definitely at the end of their rope. GM is just coming to put them out of their misery. Lucky for Chrysler owners, because that more than likely means they'll still have their warranties honored. Clark Howard here has been warning people that Chrysler may not exist in the next year or so, and they'd been SOL.

[Crapshoot]

People still buy American cars?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Still, GM is sure to off Dodge & Chrysler... but they are too stupid to kill their own GMC Truck line and replace it with Jeep. They'll keep both. And then what, the new, ugly Chrysler box minivans get Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Jeep, Saturn & Cadillac grills?

[stevew]

I wonder how much they'll end up paying out in extortion money to get this approved quickly.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Lots of people are about to lose their jobs I'm afraid.

And not just any jobs but decently well paying union jobs.

I'm sure they can go work at Wal Mart where that $7 per hour will go far...

SI

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

And not just any jobs but decently well paying union jobs.

Which is why they are losing jobs and losing money.

A lot of foreign car makers are creating US factory jobs in plants across the country and manage to create quality, profitable cars.

[Buccaneer]

Or they can go to work at a Toyota or Honda plant and see how better vehicles are made without the coverup of the union.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Or they can go to work at a Toyota or Honda plant and see how better vehicles are made without the coverup of the union.

Or you could just drive by the unemployment office and honk your horn, laughing along the way at how superior your hunk of crap is.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Which is why they are losing jobs and losing money.

A lot of foreign car makers are creating US factory jobs in plants across the country and manage to create quality, profitable cars.

The workers at plants owned by foreign car makers make just as much as the workers at GM, Ford and Chrysler. The difference is that they don't have the health care and pension commitments to retired workers. Foreign manufacturers -- even those with some U.S. plants -- will always have an advantage since their governments are picking up the tab for health care in their home countries. And that goes to more than just cars.

It's sad to say because I have friends who work for Ford and GM here in KC and I feel for everyone who works in the auto industry. But the Big 3 have been doomed for 30 years due to mistakes made a half century ago and absolutely bizarre business models -- good grief, up up until about 20 years ago automakers assumed retired workers would all live until they were about 70. We have done nothing but bail them out and keep them going. I don't know if we would have been better if we let Chrysler fail 30 years ago and let the market take care of GM and Ford too.

I think consolidation is for the best long term but it will be painful and sad.

[Buccaneer]

But the Big 3 have been doomed for 30 years due to mistakes made a half century ago and absolutely bizarre business models

I had to do the math to figure that one until I realized you were talking about pensions. I would also point to the bad engineering decisions that were made 25-30 year ago.

Consolidations have always happened in the auto industry. I remember reading that the Ford company that you and I grew up with came about from gobbling up dozens of companies. But I agree with you about letting the market take care of it. Wished they had thought that way about the labor market.

[Cringer]

This sucks to me simply because I like Chrysler/Dodge. We have a Dodge Ram van and a Chrysler 300, the next new car would most likely be a Dodge Challenger since the wife is in love with them. Looks like those are going to have a short production life.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

The workers at plants owned by foreign car makers make just as much as the workers at GM, Ford and Chrysler. The difference is that they don't have the health care and pension commitments to retired workers. Foreign manufacturers -- even those with some U.S. plants -- will always have an advantage since their governments are picking up the tab for health care in their home countries. And that goes to more than just cars.

It's sad to say because I have friends who work for Ford and GM here in KC and I feel for everyone who works in the auto industry. But the Big 3 have been doomed for 30 years due to mistakes made a half century ago and absolutely bizarre business models -- good grief, up up until about 20 years ago automakers assumed retired workers would all live until they were about 70. We have done nothing but bail them out and keep them going. I don't know if we would have been better if we let Chrysler fail 30 years ago and let the market take care of GM and Ford too.

I think consolidation is for the best long term but it will be painful and sad.

Just to get your clarification, don't foreign manufactures pay US plant and non-plant (management, sales, ect.) workers with health care coverage on their own. I know that Japan, Germany, and most other countries have nationalized health care, but they are just on the people who work in these countries. Am I correct?

Both sides seem poorly managed. The car manufactures are starting to wake up (and GM did move it's retirement health care costs to the union for good). I've never been a big union fan, and I think they are starting to realize the power they had is fading in today's environment.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Cringer

This sucks to me simply because I like Chrysler/Dodge. We have a Dodge Ram van and a Chrysler 300, the next new car would most likely be a Dodge Challenger since the wife is in love with them. Looks like those are going to have a short production life.

Never been a big fan of the Dodge/Chrysler lines. They just seems to bring back old ideas or rip off the models of other companies (the 300 is a prime example).

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Or they can go to work at a Toyota or Honda plant and see how better vehicles are made without the coverup of the union.

This attitude about the superiority of Japanese cars has been a godsend to me. Because of this perception, I am able to buy good quality used Chrysler products for a fraction of the cost of the Japanese models. I have had zero problems with my Chryslers over the years, and saved a bundle in the process.

[weegeebored]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Sounds like it's a done deal. Chrysler will take their Jeep and Van lines to GM, and GM will absolve the rest of the company.

I thought that I heard this morning that GM can't secure the financing. Is it my imagination or is this country in a wee bit of trouble?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The "superiority" of japanese cars would be funny if it didn't have such disastrous results. Of the people I know with domestic and foreign cars, they all seem to complain at about the same level, yet those who own japanese cars take the attitude that it would be worse if they had bought american.

Are we the only nation that does not have some protectionist policies in place to ensure that we keep some jobs and companies inside our own borders?

I hope this takeover does fall through, as it would be a shame to see Chrysler & Dodge disappear, the loss of jobs that would result and GM become even more bloated. Chrysler is a company that can/should be saved.

Just compare the biographies of Louis Chevrolet with John & Horace Dodge and you will see which name is more deserving of surviving. The Dodge brothers were geniuses at engineering and producing excellent vehicles. (Walter Chrysler bought the company when it fell apart after their deaths.) Chevrolet didn't really care about making great cars, he just wanted to make them fast so he could race. He sold his company when it wasn't worth much and watched it become a success. He eventually died broke, selling cars that had his name on it. Actually, Chevy does somewhat remind me of the American economy now...

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

The "superiority" of japanese cars would be funny if it didn't have such disastrous results. Of the people I know with domestic and foreign cars, they all seem to complain at about the same level, yet those who own japanese cars take the attitude that it would be worse if they had bought american.

Too bad what you're implying here does not have any basis in objective data.

There is a lot of data that shows pretty clearly that Japanese cars are more reliable (often dramatically so) than American cars as well as better on gas mileage.

Nice story you tell though.

As soon as the American manufacturers can match the quality of the Japanese (and Hyundai is catching up too) then we can talk about woe is me patriotism.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

The "superiority" of japanese cars would be funny if it didn't have such disastrous results. Of the people I know with domestic and foreign cars, they all seem to complain at about the same level, yet those who own japanese cars take the attitude that it would be worse if they had bought american.

My history with cars:

Growing up we had an Olds '98 land yacht. It ran fine, but we had a short in the wiper motor which caused issues with the electrical system. Still, all in all was a solid car.

Then we had a Olds Delta '88 which was a great car and we ran up 120,000 miles on it over roughly 12 years. Good solid car.

My dad had two BMWs over this time and they were solid cars, but were very expensive to maintain, and were finicky if they were not maintained well.

Roughly 93, my Dad got a Yukon that has been in the shop more times than I can count for various things. The tranny went out at like 39,000 miles.

Shortly thereafter, my mom got a Caddy, which had nothing but problems until they upgraded her to an Aurora.

The Aurora held up fairly well after some initial problems. Other then my mom's driving, it has been a solid car.

I had a Chrysler Concorde in which the radiator fan went out at 33,000 miles and caused engine problems due to over heating. To make matters worse, there was no warning aside from the engine slowing down due to the overheating (temp gauge went up, but it went up so fast it wasn't funny).

I had a Dodge Ram truck that had the tranny go out at 36,500 miles.

After that, I bought a Nissan Sentra for my wife. We put 100,000 miles on the car over 7/8 years and had absolutely no problems.

I drove a Nissan Maxima, and had that thing for 7 years and 250,000 miles and had no problems with the car except the leather on the seats had started to crack.

So virtually every American made car that I had or was associated with, had some sort of issue with it. Consistently. Yet, I switched to Nissan and had no problems whatsoever with either car. We recently got a Nissan Quest and have had no issues with that, although we only have 3000 miles on it so the jury is going to be out for quite some time on that car.

[Warhammer]

EDIT: I find it interesting that the only American made cars which were consistently solid, were Oldsmobile, but they shut that line down. Still can't figure out if I got lucky with those cars or if they were made better.

[sterlingice]

Ooh! Ooh! Can we have an entire threadjack of anecdotal evidence where everyone sees what they want to see in the quality of cars?

SI

[Anthony]

i have a '02 Hyundai Elantra and i've had no problems with it at all. great car that's got a little get up and go and is really deceptively big in terms of fitting things in it (it's a hatchback). i'm ready to upgrade to a big SUV now though with more power. still, i may have to lean towards a non-American car if everyone says they've had numerous ticky tack problems with theirs.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Ooh! Ooh! Can we have an entire threadjack of anecdotal evidence where everyone sees what they want to see in the quality of cars?

SI

I've owned 4 cars (2 'domestic' and 2 'foreign') and have never really had a problem with any of them. My conclusion is that cars are the most reliable product on earth, and that people I see on the side of the road are eating lunch or taking a pee. Oh, and that Consumer Reports is a communist propaganda machine designed to destroy faith in every product available to free market consumers.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

The "superiority" of japanese cars would be funny if it didn't have such disastrous results. Of the people I know with domestic and foreign cars, they all seem to complain at about the same level, yet those who own japanese cars take the attitude that it would be worse if they had bought american.

Are we the only nation that does not have some protectionist policies in place to ensure that we keep some jobs and companies inside our own borders?

I hope this takeover does fall through, as it would be a shame to see Chrysler & Dodge disappear, the loss of jobs that would result and GM become even more bloated. Chrysler is a company that can/should be saved.

Just compare the biographies of Louis Chevrolet with John & Horace Dodge and you will see which name is more deserving of surviving. The Dodge brothers were geniuses at engineering and producing excellent vehicles. (Walter Chrysler bought the company when it fell apart after their deaths.) Chevrolet didn't really care about making great cars, he just wanted to make them fast so he could race. He sold his company when it wasn't worth much and watched it become a success. He eventually died broke, selling cars that had his name on it. Actually, Chevy does somewhat remind me of the American economy now...

Protectionism against what? Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, and the rest have a lot of factories and non-labor offices in the states. They are just smarter when it comes to compensation. I would argue that foreign car makers are just as "American" as US automakers.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Too bad what you're implying here does not have any basis in objective data.

There is a lot of data that shows pretty clearly that Japanese cars are more reliable (often dramatically so) than American cars as well as better on gas mileage.

Nice story you tell though.

As soon as the American manufacturers can match the quality of the Japanese (and Hyundai is catching up too) then we can talk about woe is me patriotism.

Ford quality is on par with Honda and Toyota according to J. D. Power. Let the "woe is me patriotism" commence!

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by Bobble

Ford quality is on par with Honda and Toyota according to J. D. Power. Let the "woe is me patriotism" commence!

I poked around the JD Power site but it was difficult to find the metrics I was looking for. It's clearer from Ford's article here: Media.Ford.com: FORD’S DOMESTIC BRAND QUALITY IN STATISTICAL DEAD HEAT WITH TOYOTA AND HONDA FOR 2008 MODEL YEAR

[wade moore]

Ford did see some improvements in the 2007/2008 models, but that's not a ton of data.

Most of knowledge is based off of Consumer Reports fwiw.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by wade moore

... but that's not a ton of data.

I don't follow. It's all the 2007/2008 models, everyone who responded. It's about all the data you can get, seems to me.

I like Consumer Reports but it seems to have a fair amount of opinion ("I liked these seats. I hated the radio"). Which is good if you're about to go test drive (I'll check the seat feel and check out the radio) but if we're talking about the quality of companies overall, then TGWs, etc. are the metrics the auto industry uses.

Regardless, my only real point is that don't let perceived poor quality keep you from looking at a Ford, Lincoln, or Mercury. The quality is there.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Anthony

i have a '02 Hyundai Elantra and i've had no problems with it at all. great car that's got a little get up and go and is really deceptively big in terms of fitting things in it (it's a hatchback). i'm ready to upgrade to a big SUV now though with more power. still, i may have to lean towards a non-American car if everyone says they've had numerous ticky tack problems with theirs.

If you have money to burn, and would like a really big SUV, go Sequoia. Those things are amazing.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

The "superiority" of japanese cars would be funny if it didn't have such disastrous results. Of the people I know with domestic and foreign cars, they all seem to complain at about the same level, yet those who own japanese cars take the attitude that it would be worse if they had bought american.

Are we the only nation that does not have some protectionist policies in place to ensure that we keep some jobs and companies inside our own borders?

I hope this takeover does fall through, as it would be a shame to see Chrysler & Dodge disappear, the loss of jobs that would result and GM become even more bloated. Chrysler is a company that can/should be saved.

Just compare the biographies of Louis Chevrolet with John & Horace Dodge and you will see which name is more deserving of surviving. The Dodge brothers were geniuses at engineering and producing excellent vehicles. (Walter Chrysler bought the company when it fell apart after their deaths.) Chevrolet didn't really care about making great cars, he just wanted to make them fast so he could race. He sold his company when it wasn't worth much and watched it become a success. He eventually died broke, selling cars that had his name on it. Actually, Chevy does somewhat remind me of the American economy now...

Chrysler is going under regardless of the GM buy-out. They'd be better off selling to GM.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Bobble

I don't follow. It's all the 2007/2008 models, everyone who responded. It's about all the data you can get, seems to me.

I like Consumer Reports but it seems to have a fair amount of opinion ("I liked these seats. I hated the radio"). Which is good if you're about to go test drive (I'll check the seat feel and check out the radio) but if we're talking about the quality of companies overall, then TGWs, etc. are the metrics the auto industry uses.

Regardless, my only real point is that don't let perceived poor quality keep you from looking at a Ford, Lincoln, or Mercury. The quality is there.

My point is how much do you know about reliability right now for a 2007 or 2008 model? You don't really get good reliability data until a few years in.

I don't know what TGWs are, do you have metrics that show that Ford/Lincoln/Mercury measure up to the Japanese manufacturers? I'd love to see it if so. Otherwise, I have to rely on the Consumer Reports information which is not what you state it is - they have metrics based on the number of repairs necessary and on what parts of the car.

[GrantDawg]

And of course, there is the little factor that many, many "American" cars are actually made in Canada or Mexico, of as many Japenese parts as the standard Honda or Toyota, but anyway. Let's keep waving the flag.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by wade moore

My point is how much do you know about reliability right now for a 2007 or 2008 model? You don't really get good reliability data until a few years in.

I don't know what TGWs are, do you have metrics that show that Ford/Lincoln/Mercury measure up to the Japanese manufacturers? I'd love to see it if so. Otherwise, I have to rely on the Consumer Reports information which is not what you state it is - they have metrics based on the number of repairs necessary and on what parts of the car.

Oh, I get you now. Long term. The only thing I could find quickly was data that shows Ford is on industry average for problems per 100 vehicles for the last few years (I apologize for the lack of formatting):

Vehicle Dependability Index – J.D. Power and Associates (4-5 years of ownership)

Ford Motor Company U.S.
Problems per hundred vehicles

	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007
Problems - Ford Motor Company	354	287	275	231	225	221
Problems - Industry average	355	273	269	237	227	216

[wade moore]

I keep looking for data on the Japanese companies, but all I find are articles in the 2000-2002 range (which all have Japanese cars at the top fwiw).

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by Bobble

I poked around the JD Power site but it was difficult to find the metrics I was looking for. It's clearer from Ford's article here: Media.Ford.com: FORD’S DOMESTIC BRAND QUALITY IN STATISTICAL DEAD HEAT WITH TOYOTA AND HONDA FOR 2008 MODEL YEAR

Initial quality is one thing. Lets see how the 2008 models have fared in three to five years....

[GrantDawg]

From the article:

From 2004 to 2008, Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicle quality, as measured by a reduction in TGW, has improved by 33 percent.

That is good for them, but the fact they need to gain 33% to just tie the other makers is the reason they have such a bad reputation, and their car's resell value is nill.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

From the article:



That is good for them, but the fact they need to gain 33% to just tie the other makers is the reason they have such a bad reputation, and their car's resell value is nill.

That 33% improvement is better than any other manufacturer and puts Ford's TGW (Things Gone Wrong) even with the best in industry. You're right, though, is that the rep is much worse than reality.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Bobble

That 33% improvement is better than any other manufacturer and puts Ford's TGW (Things Gone Wrong) even with the best in industry. You're right, though, is that the rep is much worse than reality.

Well, actually, those numbers you posted show that Ford is now equal with the average, not "even with the best".

And even besides that, they deserve their rep. Clearly they were MUCH worse until the last couple of years. Automobiles is not an industry where you can just immediately change your reputation - you need years of proven product to get respect. You can't just expect people to change because of a couple of good years.

Take Hyundai as a great example. They've actually been making good cars for almost 10 years, but they're just now starting to get regarded as not being POS's.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Bobble

That 33% improvement is better than any other manufacturer and puts Ford's TGW (Things Gone Wrong) even with the best in industry. You're right, though, is that the rep is much worse than reality.

Well, the rep comes because they were 33% behind the industry a few years ago. It is that they have been way behind the industry in quality for basically my whole lifetime. That is a lot of years of earning that bad rep, and it will not change in brief amount of time.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Take Hyundai as a great example. They've actually been making good cars for almost 10 years, but they're just now starting to get regarded as not being POS's.

That is very true. You can use Toyota as well. When they came into the market, their cars were junk. It took years of producing superior vehicles before the earned their reputation. And they didn't produce crap as long as Ford/GM has.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Take Hyundai as a great example. They've actually been making good cars for almost 10 years, but they're just now starting to get regarded as not being POS's.

My first car was a 1994 Hyundai Excel, and that thing was awesome. It didn't have frills and the ride was bouncy, but for what it was (my commute to University), it lasted me around six years without a major mechanical problem. Just the routine oil changes and stuff. I couldn't ask for more back then. Gas was also pretty good.

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Well, actually, those numbers you posted show that Ford is now equal with the average, not "even with the best".

And even besides that, they deserve their rep. Clearly they were MUCH worse until the last couple of years. Automobiles is not an industry where you can just immediately change your reputation - you need years of proven product to get respect. You can't just expect people to change because of a couple of good years.

Take Hyundai as a great example. They've actually been making good cars for almost 10 years, but they're just now starting to get regarded as not being POS's.

Initial quality for the 2008s is "even with the best" from the first link. 4-5 year quality for cars built a couple of years ago is industry average.

It's my impression that Ford's rep is considerably worse. How many reading this thread were surprised by the numbers?

[Bobble]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Well, the rep comes because they were 33% behind the industry a few years ago. It is that they have been way behind the industry in quality for basically my whole lifetime. That is a lot of years of earning that bad rep, and it will not change in brief amount of time.

No, 33% behind the LEADERS in initial quality and customer satisfaction, not behind the industry. That's how that 33% improvement puts them right with the leaders.

But, I think I've put enough whip marks on this dead horse.

[wade moore]

Bobble - the point is, Ford made complete crap for a lot of years. If they keep this up then in 5-10 years they will have an improved reputation - but as a buyer a couple of good years of initial quality just isn't enough for me.

[Bobble]

Ford's rep for quality is bad in your eyes (allow me to paraphrase the words "complete crap" ). And in many other's eyes as well -- that's obvious.

I'm just trying to point out that I don't think it should be. Ford's 4-5 year quality for the last few years is average. They're just now bragging about getting even with the industry leaders in initial quality, so you'd expect the 4-5 year quality on those 2008 models and beyond to improve. I think the worst you could fairly say is that Ford's quality is average with an up arrow.

As you say, it takes time to change people's opinion. I hope this thread is at least a start.

[Galaxy]

Ford seems to be focusing a lot more on the Ford line, bringing in new management and selling off car companies like Jaguar, Aston Martin, and such.

[CU Tiger]

Lets not forget expectation levels.

Anecdotely I cant help but remember a former co worker who bragged about the thoroughness of Honda's 100,000 mile check up that include replacing the timing belt and adjusting the valves (all at a cos of over $1,000 to him) and then no less than 3 months later bitching because his ford truck had a fuel injector go out and need replacing at 85,000 miles costing him $350.

All these surveys are garbage because they take expectations into account. Including my business I own 27 vehicles. (23 of which are Fords, all owned by my business and I dont drive a Ford) When i put a service guy in a brand new truck and it makes a noise he will not complain (after all he has a brand new truck) when I bought my wife's BMW X5 she took it in 9 times the first month for noise and ride issues, which would be ignored by all my guys in the trucks....yet JDP an CR takes all that data and makes a number out of it.

Go figure

[rjolley]

Well, I would expect a quieter ride from a BMW than a Ford truck, and wouldn't complain about a noisier ride, especially if I didn't pay for the truck.

Plus, wouldn't the car going in 9 times make the BMW's rating worse?