Opinions on what I should charge?

Cringer · 10-16-2008, 12:36 AM

Your wives......

Just kidding of course. I meant to post this hours ago but got distracted with an old dog having a seizure. Whole other story though, but it means I will keep this short.

The wife volunteered me to make the Edinburg Youth Soccer Club a website, and no this is not what I am charging for. I volunteer to coach and I had the hosting account so getting a domain and doing the work was fine. Just got the front page up today while it is under construction. Hugo, the youth soccer president, told the regional organization about me because it turns out they paid $3000 for some guy/small business to make their website and once he did they never heard from him again I guess. The thing really isn't even finished from what I see. So their site hasn't been updated in about a year and they just haven't gotten anyone to do it for some reason.

I am meeting with one of the board members of the regional youth soccer group tomorrow and somehow it quickly got to the point (without me even talking to the guy yet) that I should have some kind of figure in mind to let them know tomorrow what I would want to update their site for them. I have no idea what I should charge, I have never done this for pay. I will off giving them a figure I have decided, until I can get in and see what I am working with and find out exactly what they want.

From what I see on their site I would need to update nearly every page to start with, and possibly add 3-4 pages which seem to have never been put up even though they are linked to. I don't think they want me to actually re-do the website. They also would like me to update from then on, which I am guessing wouldn't be more often the once a week at most, more likely once or twice a month. Sometimes maybe a bunch at once but I have no idea right now.

So with what I have said above, anyone who does web pages have an opinion on what a non-pro should charge? I was thinking a fee for the first major update, and then a monthly-quarterly fee for the updating from then on. I have no idea what those should be though. My wife was suggesting at least $500 for the first part and then something less afterwards for the upkeep of the site.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, since this is new ground for me and I don't think any local web guys are going to give me much info on what they charge.

Thanks

SackAttack · 10-16-2008, 12:39 AM

Figure out what your time is worth and bill 'em on an hourly basis for the major update. The minor stuff that follows, sure, you could charge 'em a quarterly fee or whatever.

stevew · 10-16-2008, 12:51 AM

Edinburg Web Design - Website Design for Edinburg, Texas (TX)

that site has pricing

Cringer · 10-16-2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Edinburg Web Design - Website Design for Edinburg, Texas (TX)

that site has pricing

Smart ass.

Hadn't had time to do a search, and with being so busy until now I admit it hadn't even popped into my mind yet. I am looking it over now. Thanks.

lordscarlet · 10-16-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Figure out what your time is worth and bill 'em on an hourly basis for the major update. The minor stuff that follows, sure, you could charge 'em a quarterly fee or whatever.

+1

Don't forget that what you think is easy, is not to other people. Really, contracting on your own like this, even for just content updates, I wouldn't charge less then $40/hr, but that's just me. It could really be much more than that as well, particularly if it's not just content updates. But don't charge by the job -- you can easily get screwed that way. Charge by the hour.

Young Drachma · 10-16-2008, 12:45 PM

I agree that you ought to charge hourly. For "non-pro" freelance designers, I'd say the going rate is somewhere in the $20-30/hr range. You can ballpark in your head what you want to ultimately charge them, though, and then come up with a figure to match.

Anthony · 10-16-2008, 01:00 PM

you people are much nicer than i am. i would use a free website template from one of the hundred websites out there that give you free html code to edit, and customize it to fit the Soccer league's tastes, and charge money as if i spent many hours on it. this may be why i have a seat reserved in Purgatory with my name on it.

lordscarlet · 10-16-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

you people are much nicer than i am. i would use a free website template from one of the hundred websites out there that give you free html code to edit, and customize it to fit the Soccer league's tastes, and charge money as if i spent many hours on it. this may be why i have a seat reserved in Purgatory with my name on it.

He said they don't want a redesign, they just want the content updated.

Anthony · 10-16-2008, 01:16 PM

that's even easier. he just needs to edit the text. wow, and they're gonna pay you for that? well done. lol

stevew · 10-16-2008, 01:20 PM

May as well get some "authorized merchandise" for the league up on cafepress, and link that to you.

And maybe an amazon store link.

mrsimperless · 10-16-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

that's even easier. he just needs to edit the text. wow, and they're gonna pay you for that? well done. lol

+1

CMS's ftw!

kcchief19 · 10-16-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

you people are much nicer than i am. i would use a free website template from one of the hundred websites out there that give you free html code to edit, and customize it to fit the Soccer league's tastes, and charge money as if i spent many hours on it. this may be why i have a seat reserved in Purgatory with my name on it.

I recently worked with a designer who did just that; suffice to say they are no longer working on the project.

lordscarlet · 10-16-2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsimperless

+1

CMS's ftw!

Trying to setup a CMS, FTL! (Well, for a palce with 40,000 pages all having very unique requirements.

)

mrsimperless · 10-16-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

Trying to setup a CMS, FTL! (Well, for a palce with 40,000 pages all having very unique requirements.

)

....which it doesn't sound like he's doing.

Seriously Cringer, look into it. It could be well worth your while as you can continue to make updates for them as needed with very little of your own time invested. And if you're a man of scruples you could even teach them how to fish. You might even swing it like this: charge a bit more to set up a CMS for them and show them how to use it to make their own updates. win-win!

Cringer · 10-16-2008, 05:07 PM

I have never messed with setting up a CMS, but I started looking into it the other day while setting up the local league's site. MODx is what I was looking at but I guess I will see about starting with Joomba on the local soccer site since MODx won't work on that hosting plan.

Thanks for the advice guys.

TimGuru · 10-16-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

that's even easier. he just needs to edit the text. wow, and they're gonna pay you for that? well done. lol

Some lady at work was unable to get 18 pictures she had emailed to her organized into a slide show. I did it in about 6 minutes in powerpoint and made my assistant resize all the photos, so really I did, um, added 18 slides to a blank power point presentation and set a timer on how fast they rotated. The woman is insistent that she wants to pay me, and I fully expect to have a lunch bought for me tomorrow that I won't be able to refuse.

Its amazing how less-than-ept most people are with "computer stuff" and the willingness they have to shell out money to have stuff done for them.

Cringer · 10-20-2008, 03:49 PM

Finally got together with this guy Saturday night over dinner and talked for a few hours, looked at the site on my laptop, talked about the history of the site and what it was supposed to be like and what he/they want for it now. Got some possible login info from him and told him I would try it out that night and look things over, then give him a price. The info worked (he wasn't sure) and I actually started messing around right away with possible changes. The whole thing is done in tables, and I don't want to mess with that really. Especially when it comes to things they want to put on the site. To cut this short I emailed him yesterday telling him he would see my work today sometime and let him know the initial fee would be $1200 to do a full update and adding some of the stuff he wants added and that me changing over the code is kind of important to me. He seems like he doesn't want to do that but I think that is because he is assuming it will take things a lot longer since other guys in the past have tried that on him. That was why I felt it was key to have a page up with different coding but similar style (although nicer IMO) ready for him to see ASAP.

He got back to me today before even seeing the page and was pretty much agreeing to the initial price, he just wanted more of a breakdown of what he was getting then I gave him at first (my newb mistake). So it sounds like I might have struck a deal with the guy for this first part. I told him already that future adding of stuff would be for a price we talk about at that time, which was his idea at first anyways. As far keeping up with the updating there is nothing set yet, but that might come in at about $100 a month or so but I am not really sure yet.

I am pretty happy over this whole thing. I just wish I knew more and was better at this. I could easily do this as a job. This project will go far in helping me learn more though (already has some) and you never know what the future holds I guess.

JonInMiddleGA · 10-20-2008, 04:05 PM

FWIW, the process you describe in the latest post seems to be par for the course for every similar project I've run across. There's a lot of start-stop, apparently born of how relatively few people on the client side actually have even the slightest understanding of what it takes to accomplish certain tasks. There's almost always an underestimation or overestimation of the time/cost a web project entails, rarely does a client come with a reasonably close understanding of the reality. Goes with the "helping you learn more" thing, that the scenario you went through at the end is pretty common stuff (so sayeth a guy who has been through the process with various outcomes on at least a dozen projects for at least a half dozen clients in the past 8-10 years ... the estimated mileage from a full-timer may vary and objects in mirror may be closer than they appear).

lordscarlet · 10-20-2008, 04:10 PM

To tack on to what Jon said:

The over/under estimation is also just par for the course with how web design and development (and software development in general) are not routine tasks. You can't really base one estimate on any other project you have done. Each one has its unique pitfalls. This is why, on a small thing like this, it is often better to charge by the hour. That will give a fair price to both of you. However, it sounds like things are looking good for you. I'm not trying to say you did the wrong thing, just that web development is so imprecise that you can never accurately estimate the amount of time you put into a project.

Cringer · 10-20-2008, 05:09 PM

I understand the the points made in the last tow posts. I chose not to go hourly at this point to speed things up. I have never done this large of a project before. I know I can do it, but I am not sure how long it will take me. I felt at this stage it would be easier for both sides to go with the flat rate because I couldn't give an honest estimate of time to do the initial work and he has to stick within a yearly budget.

After this I will probably move over to an hourly rate, which I think he will go along with no problem. He knows this is not a full time job for me and that I am already fairly busy with normal work and soccer related stuff now.

MacroGuru · 10-20-2008, 08:22 PM

I could so go so many places in answering this thread based off of title alone....

Cringer · 10-20-2008, 10:31 PM

Yes I know. I was kind of surprised no one ever took it anywhere else really......

lordscarlet · 10-21-2008, 09:21 AM

Like I said, I think things sound good for you. It's just something to keep in mind for the future.

10-16-2008, 05:07 PM	#15
Cringer Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Edinburg,TX	I have never messed with setting up a CMS, but I started looking into it the other day while setting up the local league's site. MODx is what I was looking at but I guess I will see about starting with Joomba on the local soccer site since MODx won't work on that hosting plan. Thanks for the advice guys. __________________ You Stole Fizzy Lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and steralized, so you get NOTHING! You lose!

10-20-2008, 03:49 PM	#17
Cringer Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Edinburg,TX	Finally got together with this guy Saturday night over dinner and talked for a few hours, looked at the site on my laptop, talked about the history of the site and what it was supposed to be like and what he/they want for it now. Got some possible login info from him and told him I would try it out that night and look things over, then give him a price. The info worked (he wasn't sure) and I actually started messing around right away with possible changes. The whole thing is done in tables, and I don't want to mess with that really. Especially when it comes to things they want to put on the site. To cut this short I emailed him yesterday telling him he would see my work today sometime and let him know the initial fee would be $1200 to do a full update and adding some of the stuff he wants added and that me changing over the code is kind of important to me. He seems like he doesn't want to do that but I think that is because he is assuming it will take things a lot longer since other guys in the past have tried that on him. That was why I felt it was key to have a page up with different coding but similar style (although nicer IMO) ready for him to see ASAP. He got back to me today before even seeing the page and was pretty much agreeing to the initial price, he just wanted more of a breakdown of what he was getting then I gave him at first (my newb mistake). So it sounds like I might have struck a deal with the guy for this first part. I told him already that future adding of stuff would be for a price we talk about at that time, which was his idea at first anyways. As far keeping up with the updating there is nothing set yet, but that might come in at about $100 a month or so but I am not really sure yet. I am pretty happy over this whole thing. I just wish I knew more and was better at this. I could easily do this as a job. This project will go far in helping me learn more though (already has some) and you never know what the future holds I guess. __________________ You Stole Fizzy Lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and steralized, so you get NOTHING! You lose!

10-20-2008, 04:05 PM	#18
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	FWIW, the process you describe in the latest post seems to be par for the course for every similar project I've run across. There's a lot of start-stop, apparently born of how relatively few people on the client side actually have even the slightest understanding of what it takes to accomplish certain tasks. There's almost always an underestimation or overestimation of the time/cost a web project entails, rarely does a client come with a reasonably close understanding of the reality. Goes with the "helping you learn more" thing, that the scenario you went through at the end is pretty common stuff (so sayeth a guy who has been through the process with various outcomes on at least a dozen projects for at least a half dozen clients in the past 8-10 years ... the estimated mileage from a full-timer may vary and objects in mirror may be closer than they appear). __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 10-20-2008 at 04:06 PM.

10-20-2008, 04:10 PM	#19
lordscarlet Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Washington, DC	To tack on to what Jon said: The over/under estimation is also just par for the course with how web design and development (and software development in general) are not routine tasks. You can't really base one estimate on any other project you have done. Each one has its unique pitfalls. This is why, on a small thing like this, it is often better to charge by the hour. That will give a fair price to both of you. However, it sounds like things are looking good for you. I'm not trying to say you did the wrong thing, just that web development is so imprecise that you can never accurately estimate the amount of time you put into a project. __________________ Sixteen Colors ANSI/ASCII Art Archive "...the better half of the Moores..." -cthomer5000

10-20-2008, 05:09 PM	#20
Cringer Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Edinburg,TX	I understand the the points made in the last tow posts. I chose not to go hourly at this point to speed things up. I have never done this large of a project before. I know I can do it, but I am not sure how long it will take me. I felt at this stage it would be easier for both sides to go with the flat rate because I couldn't give an honest estimate of time to do the initial work and he has to stick within a yearly budget. After this I will probably move over to an hourly rate, which I think he will go along with no problem. He knows this is not a full time job for me and that I am already fairly busy with normal work and soccer related stuff now. __________________ You Stole Fizzy Lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and steralized, so you get NOTHING! You lose!

10-16-2008, 12:39 AM	#2
SackAttack Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Green Bay, WI	Figure out what your time is worth and bill 'em on an hourly basis for the major update. The minor stuff that follows, sure, you could charge 'em a quarterly fee or whatever.

10-16-2008, 12:51 AM	#3
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Edinburg Web Design - Website Design for Edinburg, Texas (TX) that site has pricing

10-16-2008, 12:45 PM	#6
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	I agree that you ought to charge hourly. For "non-pro" freelance designers, I'd say the going rate is somewhere in the $20-30/hr range. You can ballpark in your head what you want to ultimately charge them, though, and then come up with a figure to match.

10-16-2008, 01:00 PM	#7
Anthony Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Astoria, NY, USA	you people are much nicer than i am. i would use a free website template from one of the hundred websites out there that give you free html code to edit, and customize it to fit the Soccer league's tastes, and charge money as if i spent many hours on it. this may be why i have a seat reserved in Purgatory with my name on it.

10-16-2008, 01:16 PM	#9
Anthony Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Astoria, NY, USA	that's even easier. he just needs to edit the text. wow, and they're gonna pay you for that? well done. lol

10-16-2008, 01:20 PM	#10
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	May as well get some "authorized merchandise" for the league up on cafepress, and link that to you. And maybe an amazon store link.

10-20-2008, 08:22 PM	#21
MacroGuru Coordinator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Utah	I could so go so many places in answering this thread based off of title alone.... __________________ "forgetting what is in the past, I strive for the future"

10-20-2008, 10:31 PM	#22
Cringer Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Edinburg,TX	Yes I know. I was kind of surprised no one ever took it anywhere else really...... __________________ You Stole Fizzy Lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and steralized, so you get NOTHING! You lose!

10-21-2008, 09:21 AM	#23
lordscarlet Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Washington, DC	Like I said, I think things sound good for you. It's just something to keep in mind for the future. __________________ Sixteen Colors ANSI/ASCII Art Archive "...the better half of the Moores..." -cthomer5000

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