Sports in general: Is Europe taking over?

[DeToxRox]

Now I know Europe isn't taking over per say, but the NBA is slowly being ravaged of what little depth the league has by losing their bench guys to the European teams. Now the report comes out Bron would consider any deal worth 50 mil per year, which seems outrageous, but is it really? In 2010 there are a lot of big time FA's and moreso in the NBA then other leagues, money really does talk.

These guys can afford Bron and the like, and pay them tax free money. Could this be a problem?

Look at the NHL. They're also slowly but surely losing out to the Russian Hockey League that is still in it's infancy.

The NFL and MLB probably are fine with no other alternatives, but these leagues like the NBA and NHL with salary caps could see that come back to bite them in the long run.

And yes I know the NFL has a cap, but football isn't big in Europe and I cannot see another league with owners able to pay those guys big money ever forming.

So anyway, is anyone else skeptical on the futures of these leagues (moreso NBA and NHL) using their current business models?

In the NBA's case, the league is so watered down as it is, losing these guys who are 7th and 8th men is going to make the league even worse, because it ensures more spots for Kwame Brown.

[miami_fan]

Not sure if Europe is taking over but I do think that the Euro is taking over.

[Deattribution]

It'd be a bargain for a team to get Lebron, even at 50 million per year just for the insane amount of coverage he would bring to the team and the league.

If they can pull something like that off, then it legitimizes the Euro leagues as an alternative but until they pull off a big american name, I think they're still a low threat.

[Maple Leafs]

Canada isn't in Europe.

Signed,
2008 ML Home run derby
AL MVP
NL MVP
NBA MVP
The Masters
Olympic 100 meter and relay
Indy 500
The Buffalo Bills
The NHL

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Canada isn't in Europe.

Signed,
2008 ML Home run derby
AL MVP
NL MVP
NBA MVP
The Masters
Olympic 100 meter and relay
Indy 500
The Buffalo Bills
The NHL

Pssh. We all know the Swedes took over the NHL.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Not sure if Europe is taking over but I do think that the Euro is taking over.

Indeed, though it's really one and the same. Hell, even with how strong the Aussie $ is compared to the US we've seen the level of US imports raise significantly in our national basketball league.

[Galaxy]

Do European basketball and hockey leagues have caps? Another thing to remember is the higher tax rates in Europe.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

It'd be a bargain for a team to get Lebron, even at 50 million per year just for the insane amount of coverage he would bring to the team and the league.

If they can pull something like that off, then it legitimizes the Euro leagues as an alternative but until they pull off a big american name, I think they're still a low threat.

Draftexpress.com had an article about this the other week when Childress signed. The fact is, while there are a few Euro teams that can afford to make big deals to one guy, there aren't nearly enough teams with enough cash to make it a big problem. Unless something changes dramatically (ie. suddenly these Euro leagues become a LOT more profitable - a possibility if we start to see more mid-range NBA guys heading there and sponsorship money follows), it will still only be the odd mid-level NBA guys, oldies, and fringe-NBA guys that play ball in Europe.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Do European basketball and hockey leagues have caps? Another thing to remember is the higher tax rates in Europe.

That's a good Q. I don't believe they do in basketball, outside of a cap on how many imports each team can have - another reason why the NBA shouldn't be too upset. Though I guess that's one rule that could quite easily change.

[Shkspr]

The NBA isn't any more doomed by the loss of these guys than MLB was doomed when Tuffy Rhodes went to Japan.

Now, what is worrisome is the growing disconnect between the NBA game and the international game, and more specifically the creeping sensation that the NBA game isn't superior to international basketball.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Do European basketball and hockey leagues have caps? Another thing to remember is the higher tax rates in Europe.

One thing about one of the recent basketball signings...the team promised to pay his taxes for him. So his contract was essentially tax free.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

The NBA isn't any more doomed by the loss of these guys than MLB was doomed when Tuffy Rhodes went to Japan.

Now, what is worrisome is the growing disconnect between the NBA game and the international game, and more specifically the creeping sensation that the NBA game isn't superior to international basketball.

From the international games I've watched, the NBA and college games are far more entertaining.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by mckerney

From the international games I've watched, the NBA and college games are far more entertaining.

College, maybe, if we are talking about the better coached teams. NBA, not even close. Watch a game of NBA basketball from the early 90s or 80s - that's an entertaining game of basketball. The NBA today is a league with the best players but the most fucked up rulebook.

The real good teams in International basketball are a delight to watch, especially if you are the kind of guy that gets off on X's & Os like I do.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Now, what is worrisome is the growing disconnect between the NBA game and the international game, and more specifically the creeping sensation that the NBA game isn't superior to international basketball.

Definately. Interestingly enough, FIBA made some changes recently to the international game that were taken almost straight from the NBA rulebook, but they will still always be essentially two different games and, even more glaring, different styles, and that's always going to hurt team USA.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

One thing about one of the recent basketball signings...the team promised to pay his taxes for him. So his contract was essentially tax free.

Sad part is he'll still have to pay US Federal taxes.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

College, maybe, if we are talking about the better coached teams. NBA, not even close. Watch a game of NBA basketball from the early 90s or 80s - that's an entertaining game of basketball. The NBA today is a league with the best players but the most fucked up rulebook.

The real good teams in International basketball are a delight to watch, especially if you are the kind of guy that gets off on X's & Os like I do.

Couldn't disagree more. I'd rather watch a mediocre NBA game then a good FIBA matchup. The nearly complete lack of physical inside play makes FIBA a far less entertaining game.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Do European basketball and hockey leagues have caps? Another thing to remember is the higher tax rates in Europe.

In Europe, pro sports contract are no different from any company/worker relationship. The company offers you a job with a salary, if you like it, you accept it, that is all, like if the local shop was hiring you.

There is no cap in European sports, the "cap" is just how profitable the team is for it's owners (pro sport teams are like any LLC in USA, who owns the biggest % of the shares is who owns the team, the team president is elected by the shares owners, etc).

- Everybody in FA can be offered any kind of contract, not any cap or restriction applies.

- There is no draft, any player over 16 years old can be signed to a pro contract by any team (like they can be hired to work at the local pizza place).

- Contracts are guaranteed . If a team fires you before your contract is over, they need to pay you the whole amount owed (they usually deal this and reach an agreement).

- Everybody's contract can be purchased for the right amount. Usually every contract signed by a pro player has a release clause, if the player pays his release clause, he becomes FA. As those release clauses are usually huge, the true is that it's not the player who pays it, but the new team that gives the player the money to pay for his freedom. This makes it hard for small teams to keep their good players, as soon as they are good enough to be attractive to the top teams, they just pay the release clause and the player goes to the top team. Small teams are used to it, and basically act as farm teams, keeping their profitability selling their top self grown players. To protect those small teams, there are some laws that specify a minimum fee that the purchasing team needs to pay to the team that grew the player.

- There are no trades in European sports. Players are sold from one team to another for cash and the player must agree to it. Once the player is sold by a team, he must sign a new contract with the new team, his old contract is void.

- At least in Spain, pro sports players have a deduction in their taxes % so they pay a lower % than they should (still with the huge salaries they have, it can be around a 40%). To lower the taxes, the team and players acountants do all kind of shady stuff like setting up different LLC's and pay to one LLC for the merchandising, to another the player salary, etc so it's hard for the gobernments to track all the money.

It's basicaly a free maket where only cash does matter, like in any business environment not related to sports.

[Sgran]

Having lived in Europe for 14 years i can honestly say that noone gives a crap about basketball, let alone hockey. The stadiums for these sports are tiny, and it's hard to see the TV contracts being that lucrative. There is one important sport in Europe, and if anything America is taking a bite out of that market more than Europe's teams are scooping up the Josh Childresses. If you go to a sports bar in Europe you're much more likely to see an NBA game than a Euroleague game.

European basketball clubs are players in the international market because they invest in young players by signing them to long-term contracts. These players want to go to the NBA. My guess is that many of them are returning to Europe to be closer to home, to play a game they're more confortable with, and because the competition is closer to their skill level. Put it this way: how many years would you want to be a back-up point guard when you could be the main scoring option on a team in Barcelona?

[I. J. Reilly]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Sad part is he'll still have to pay US Federal taxes.

Only to the extent that his US tax obligation exceeds the local taxes paid. (I knew that International Taxation class I took would pay off someday)

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

Only to the extent that his US tax obligation exceeds the local taxes paid. (I knew that International Taxation class I took would pay off someday)

I do know this. However, I'm not sure how it will work in this case.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I do know this. However, I'm not sure how it will work in this case.

Well, if the team actually pays him the extra money to pay the taxes with it, then he probably wouldn't have to pay any U.S. taxes if it really is around 40% if that's the rule.

[cartman]

I love how sports in Europe are pretty much a perfect example of a free market system, as Icy's info points out. I never have been a fan of salary caps as a way of leveling the playing field.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Icy

In Europe, pro sports contract are no different from any company/worker relationship. The company offers you a job with a salary, if you like it, you accept it, that is all, like if the local shop was hiring you.

There is no cap in European sports, the "cap" is just how profitable the team is for it's owners (pro sport teams are like any LLC in USA, who owns the biggest % of the shares is who owns the team, the team president is elected by the shares owners, etc).

- Everybody in FA can be offered any kind of contract, not any cap or restriction applies.

- There is no draft, any player over 16 years old can be signed to a pro contract by any team (like they can be hired to work at the local pizza place).

- Contracts are guaranteed . If a team fires you before your contract is over, they need to pay you the whole amount owed (they usually deal this and reach an agreement).

- Everybody's contract can be purchased for the right amount. Usually every contract signed by a pro player has a release clause, if the player pays his release clause, he becomes FA. As those release clauses are usually huge, the true is that it's not the player who pays it, but the new team that gives the player the money to pay for his freedom. This makes it hard for small teams to keep their good players, as soon as they are good enough to be attractive to the top teams, they just pay the release clause and the player goes to the top team. Small teams are used to it, and basically act as farm teams, keeping their profitability selling their top self grown players. To protect those small teams, there are some laws that specify a minimum fee that the purchasing team needs to pay to the team that grew the player.

- There are no trades in European sports. Players are sold from one team to another for cash and the player must agree to it. Once the player is sold by a team, he must sign a new contract with the new team, his old contract is void.

- At least in Spain, pro sports players have a deduction in their taxes % so they pay a lower % than they should (still with the huge salaries they have, it can be around a 40%). To lower the taxes, the team and players acountants do all kind of shady stuff like setting up different LLC's and pay to one LLC for the merchandising, to another the player salary, etc so it's hard for the gobernments to track all the money.

It's basicaly a free maket where only cash does matter, like in any business environment not related to sports.

So it's pretty much like soccer/football.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Icy

Everybody's contract can be purchased for the right amount. Usually every contract signed by a pro player has a release clause,

I think that this rule is only used in Spain at the moment.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Having lived in Europe for 14 years i can honestly say that noone gives a crap about basketball, let alone hockey. The stadiums for these sports are tiny, and it's hard to see the TV contracts being that lucrative. There is one important sport in Europe, and if anything America is taking a bite out of that market more than Europe's teams are scooping up the Josh Childresses. If you go to a sports bar in Europe you're much more likely to see an NBA game than a Euroleague game.

I've been learning German, and one things I like to do is go to German news sites and try to read as much as I can. I don't translate any of it, I just use it as sort of a test to see how much progress I've been making. Anyway, in the Sports section of Spiegel Online during the NBA season (post-Super Bowl), it was completely filled with NBA stories. I hardly saw any hockey, and I don't recall ever seeing a single Euro basketball league story. I couldn't even tell you if there was a league in Germany based on Spiegel Online's website.

[Tekneek]

European teams offer more in terms of perks generally, as well. Or at least they used to. I've talked to several Canadian hockey players who spent some time playing in Europe over the past decade and they talked about the nice cars and nice homes provided at no expense.

[Kodos]

Europe can have all the sports that don't matter. As long as we keep football, we're good to go.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I've been learning German, and one things I like to do is go to German news sites and try to read as much as I can. I don't translate any of it, I just use it as sort of a test to see how much progress I've been making. Anyway, in the Sports section of Spiegel Online during the NBA season (post-Super Bowl), it was completely filled with NBA stories. I hardly saw any hockey, and I don't recall ever seeing a single Euro basketball league story. I couldn't even tell you if there was a league in Germany based on Spiegel Online's website.

You can fully blame Dirk Nowitski for that.