Historical Figures More People Should Be Aware Of

[Spree]

It seems like a lot people in this country know who Alan Shepard is, but are either not familiar with or not fully aware of Charles Lindbergh, even though Lindbergh was a pioneer and Shepard was accomplishing something already done before. History writers, it appears, choose our heroes for us. There's a number of unsung heroes who've turned into footnotes, but their influence remains the same.

Smedley Butler (Smedley Butler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The conspiracy theorist's most credible witness. A heavily decorated Marine, Butler testified to Congress in the '30s that a number of generals had proposed a revolutionary scheme with him as the ultimate, tyrannical leader of the country. Like George Washington, who was asked to serve a third term as President but declined, Butler abandoned his power lust for the good of the country. He also wrote a best-seller, War is a Racket, in which he denounced war. Simpsons fans might be familiar with the episode where Bart gets run over by a car, which is based on an anecdote Butler was fond of repeating that he once saw Benito Mussolini, premier of Italy, run over a small boy and hesitate slightly before driving off undetected.

W. Fard Muhammad (Wallace Fard Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia When the Depression hit, a little-known Islamic preacher named W. Fard Muhammad decided to pack up his things and head to the one place where people needed preaching: Detroit. There, he founded the Nation of Islam, which as we all know grew exponentially over the next 30 years, until Malcolm X's assassination. Did I mention he was white? Fard's story, and the origins of the Nation of Islam, shed light on the African-American plight in this country: that African-American resentment of the system and of whites in general was not born out of blind hatred. The radical, militant African-American philosophy had its roots sewn in one of the worst places to live in the history of civilization: Detroit, in the 1930s.



If more people were aware of Muhammad and Butler, we might have a different perception of war as an instrument of policy, and we might have an economic policy that's more racially-oriented (flame on, flamers.)

[NoMyths]

Lindbergh was also an anti-Semite and Nazi sympathizer. He certainly operated a machine for a distance, though.

[rjolley]

Robert Wuhl did a couple of shows on HBO about historical misrepresentations that I found interesting. You can find the website here.

Since watching it, I've been trying to find some websites with mention of various historical facts that are now known incorrectly, like the myth that Paul Revere warned everyone of the British arrival. Know of any more?

[NoMyths]

A book you would dig on such matters is Lies My Teacher Told Me, which analyzes a number of common historical misconceptions.

[Spree]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Lindbergh was also an anti-Semite and Nazi sympathizer. He certainly operated a machine for a distance, though.

I know, I was going to say that Lindbergh's good name has been trashed in the history books because he, well, was a raving anti-Semite, like you said. No arguments here. Yes, he was a thorn in the paw of American foreign policy, and was unintellectual enough to be taken in by the Nazi's savagely barbaric philosophies about how to run a country. But his contributions to the science of aviation cannot be understated. He wasn't f*cking Howard Hughes... some celebrity who takes up aviation as a hobby. A true American hero, except for the hating Jews part.

[Spree]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Robert Wuhl did a couple of shows on HBO about historical misrepresentations that I found interesting. You can find the website here.

Since watching it, I've been trying to find some websites with mention of various historical facts that are now known incorrectly, like the myth that Paul Revere warned everyone of the British arrival. Know of any more?

Yeah, one of the most interesting (and terribly, terribly ironic) stories was the origin of Aunt Jemima. Some of you may literally shit your pants after hearing this:

Nancy Green, the original likeness of Aunt Jemima, was born a slave. Later, after being freed, she was hired by the company who produced Aunt Jemima products to portray a "Mammy", or a domestic servant in Antebellum times who would cook and clean for her master, on the company's labels. And she was hired for life.

So, you've got a former slave being hired to basically portray what she once was. And, in my mind, this type of cultural exploitation of black people (seen today not on syrup bottles but through gangsta rap music and the overall 'gangsta' attitude) is heavily damaging.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

A book you would dig on such matters is Lies My Teacher Told Me, which analyzes a number of common historical misconceptions.

Yeah, found that book online, but haven't gotten around to getting it.

Should put it on the list when I get time to read non-work books.

[judicial clerk]

I think Lindberg also flew a number of combat missions for the US in WWII

One of my favorite lesser-known American's is Frederick Douglass[sp]

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by judicial clerk

I think Lindberg also flew a number of combat missions for the US in WWII

One of my favorite lesser-known American's is Frederick Douglass[sp]

I wouldn't exactly call Douglass lesser known.

[Senator]

I choose George Sauer Jr. as someone more people should know.

[Spree]

Originally Posted by Senator

I choose George Sauer Jr. as someone more people should know.

Wikipedia says that after a notable football career, Sauer "completed a novel." Are they missing something? Or has my thread been irrevocably hijacked by references meant to confuse people?

[Spree]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I wouldn't exactly call Douglass lesser known.

You would, if comparing him to Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, other African-American leaders. Douglass' story is that much more influential and inspiring than King's and Little's because he himself was a former slave. Also, he was respected enough to be put on a Presidential ticket, something that King and Little never accomplished.

[st.cronin]

I nominate Rodney Polston.

[Spree]

Okay, after some "research" (ahem, Googling), I've concluded that Rodney Polston is one several people, none of whom could pass for "historical" by any stretch of the imagination. He's either:


1) President of the El Paso County Fair & Junior Livestock Show Association. The only historical thing I can think of is maybe something to do with Mad Cow Disease. I don't know.

or


2) Batallion Unit Director of something called the 1st Recon Batallian Association. He stormed the beaches of Normandy, maybe.



Thanks for the laugh, st. cronin.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Spree, you're being pretty disrespectful right now.

[st.cronin]

Not even google respects his accomplishments. I rest my case.

[larrymcg421]

A guy I'd like to mention here is Raymond Spruance. He was a World War 2 Admiral that directed some of our most crucial victories, but didn't get nearly enough credit. He was quiet and stayed away from the press, unlike Halsey, who got a ton of credit that he did not deserve. (See his excruciating blunder at Leyte Gulf or his running into two Typhoons).

Spruance was a precise planner and could not be outsmarted by any enemy. During Midway, after the Americans sunk 4 Japanese carriers, Yammomoto tried to close the gap with his big battleships for a night engagement. Spruance wisely avoided this trap, ignoring advice to chase and finish off the Japanese fleet. Instead, he turned east to avoid that engagement and turned west only when he would be back in range at daytime. If Halsey was there, he would have almost certainly run right into this trap (Again, see Leyte Gulf).

[Barkeep49]

Spree: Rodney is a poster on this board.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Spree

You would, if comparing him to Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, other African-American leaders.

I don't know what it was like for you, but for me, in grade school, high school and college, Douglas was talked about more than either King Jr or Malcolm X.

[Spree]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I don't know what it was like for you, but for me, in grade school, high school and college, Douglas was talked about more than either King Jr or Malcolm X.

I think we grew up in the same relative area... so I guess the only conclusion I can draw is (time for another smartass remark) is that I didn't pay attention in school.

But you can't argue that Douglass is less revered than King (maybe not Malcolm X,) partly because I think (?) his advice for black people at one point was to speak nice and dress properly, exactly in those shallow terms.

[BishopMVP]

Pretty sure everyone here has heard of Frederick Douglas, and most know Aunt Jemima's origin was racist. (While we're there, how about Song of the South. Zip-a-dee-do-dah, Zip-a-dee-ay, and it won an Oscar for Best Picture!) I'll also guarantee more people know who Charles Lindbergh is than Alan Shephard. Other than that, I like the thread idea.

rjolley - as someone who lives in Concord, I think Revere gets a bad rap from the revisionists. Dawes and especially Prescott certainly were just as, if not more important in reaching here, but Revere not only set up the system beforehand, but also successfully reached Adams/Hancock and helped Hancock move papers and trunks during the engagement at Lexington after escaping British regulars. It's not Revere's fault Longfellow chose to exaggerate his role.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Spree

I think we grew up in the same relative area... so I guess the only conclusion I can draw is (time for another smartass remark) is that I didn't pay attention in school.

But you can't argue that Douglass is less revered than King (maybe not Malcolm X,) partly because I think (?) his advice for black people at one point was to speak nice and dress properly, exactly in those shallow terms.

I wouldn't necessarily call those shallow terms.

In fact, it was one of the great debates raging during the Harlem Renaissance over whether to use the African-American dialect or to use the standard English in writing (a debate, which incidentally, still occurs in postcolonial literary traditions today).

What you have is the clash of two cultures, one which has both the security of being the majority and the grounding that comes from a long-established tradition within the nation of being the dominant society, along with pretty well established lineages and grounding of their origins.

Contrast that with the African experience. A minority to begin with, their ability to identify with an ancestral heritage and sense of familial continuinity was extremely limited and, I suspect, in some cases, nonexistant. Compound that problem with the racism and the shift from slavery to second-class citizenship that was more like feudal serfdom than anything else and you're presented with major identity crises and a very small room in which to navigate one's own individual growth and identity formation and, by extension, one's cultural group.

Frederick Douglass, assuming that's a direct quote or at least paraphrase, is voicing a logical conclusion here. With no sense of identity, why not pattern after the original, dominant culture and strive for social mobility and financial security? The sorting out of one's own identity is best postponed until one has attained a solid foundation from which to work.

Rather akin to American literature patterning itself after British and European models until well into the 1800s, actually.

[Spree]

Now I know why you're the 2006 Golden Scribe Winner. May I ask, who have you written for professionally, and if not, why the hell haven't you?

Around Douglass's time, there's a story of a black, female toddler who is said to prefer to play with a white doll instead of a black one. It's not that African Americans should've adopted white cultural tendencies, it's that their either so ashamed of their identity or completely perplexed by it that becoming white seems like the only alternative. And to be forced through humiliation into assimilating is not a way to uplift a race of people. It would mean abandoning most of their cultural heritage before fully understanding it. While I think positive segregation, the kind of which Marcus Garvey and the Colonist Movement preached about, might've resulted in more favorable outcomes for African Americans, but I realize the reality of it is far off and unimplementable from a financial perspective. The middle ground between starting an All-African society and completely assimilating into white culture must be reached.

Today, most people despise or at least mock the stereotypical image of an upstanding black man acting white to pursue his own success. And that is why Douglass is not as revered in the history books as King, who serves as a moderate antidote to the less radical Douglass and more radical Malcolm X.

Oh, and American literature modeling itself after European styles... a geographic convenience. Most of the great writers of the 1800s (Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Hawthorne) were from the New England area, meaning that they were unintentionally influenced by European writing. Again, a choiceless decision based on circumstance that probably shouldn't have been made. I mean, isn't Twain considered a more American writer than Dickinson or Hawthorne? More reflective of the American experience? And isn't that a more preferable way to instill national pride and maintain cultural heritage among Americans?

I must say, talking about the shift of literary traditions in a conversation about the African-American plight is horribly, horribly intellectual. We should be ashamed of ourselves for so arrogantly flaunting our Ivory Tower residences. Stupid white people.

[Spree]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'll also guarantee more people know who Charles Lindbergh is than Alan Shephard.

What about Neil Armstrong? Surely more Americans know him than Lindbergh. Is landing on the moon more of an accomplishment than navigating the Atlantic? I don't know.

[14ers]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Since watching it, I've been trying to find some websites with mention of various historical facts that are now known incorrectly, like the myth that Paul Revere warned everyone of the British arrival. Know of any more?

I remember watching a Lewis Black special about how if you repeat a lie enough times it becomes fact.


I love Lewis Black's humor.

[Senator]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

A guy I'd like to mention here is Raymond Spruance. He was a World War 2 Admiral that directed some of our most crucial victories, but didn't get nearly enough credit. He was quiet and stayed away from the press, unlike Halsey, who got a ton of credit that he did not deserve. (See his excruciating blunder at Leyte Gulf or his running into two Typhoons).

Spruance was a precise planner and could not be outsmarted by any enemy. During Midway, after the Americans sunk 4 Japanese carriers, Yammomoto tried to close the gap with his big battleships for a night engagement. Spruance wisely avoided this trap, ignoring advice to chase and finish off the Japanese fleet. Instead, he turned east to avoid that engagement and turned west only when he would be back in range at daytime. If Halsey was there, he would have almost certainly run right into this trap (Again, see Leyte Gulf).

Hey, just a side note here. The book I wrote in 2000 has alot about Spruance in it. I interviewed an officer from the U.S.S. Indianapolis where it was Spruance's flagship for awhile until it was hit by a Kamikazee.

The man had large, one of a kind, original photos of Spruance from the official ship's photographer Saga (who went down with the ship when it was hit). He gave me 4 of these photo's, and someone offered me 3,000 dollars each for them a few year's ago. I kept them. I am going to give them to the museum at some point, but I want my son to be old enough to share that with me before I do it.

[Autumn]

I think in the particular case of Douglass vs King and Malcolm X, the big difference is the time period. King and Malcolm are much better known these days because most people only care about recent history that they or their parents have lived through. I don't think it reflects any intellectual opinion about their achievements, simply shows the scope of historical interest most people have.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

rjolley - as someone who lives in Concord, I think Revere gets a bad rap from the revisionists. Dawes and especially Prescott certainly were just as, if not more important in reaching here, but Revere not only set up the system beforehand, but also successfully reached Adams/Hancock and helped Hancock move papers and trunks during the engagement at Lexington after escaping British regulars. It's not Revere's fault Longfellow chose to exaggerate his role.

Didn't mean to say Revere didn't do anything of historical importance. Just that he didn't do what he's most famously known for. Seems Israel Bissell should be credited for that ride.

[Spree]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think in the particular case of Douglass vs King and Malcolm X, the big difference is the time period. King and Malcolm are much better known these days because most people only care about recent history that they or their parents have lived through. I don't think it reflects any intellectual opinion about their achievements, simply shows the scope of historical interest most people have.

True, a lot of Americans (according to polls) think either Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan is the greatest President of all time. Why? They forgot to avoid polling James Carville and James Baker III.

People like Lindbergh and Douglass are seen by some as not only damaging their reputation, but being a traitor to their cause. Douglass was deemed as an Uncle Tom, and Lindbergh -- at best a Nazi sympathizer, at worse he acted exactly as he did in Philip Roth's The Plot Against America. Which is unlikely.

But I think political affiliations should be taken with a grain of salt when analyzing if a person is truly historically influential.

[Spree]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Seems Israel Bissell should be credited for that ride.

Come round, children, and I'll give you a whistle, 'bout the midnight ride of Israel Bissell.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Spree

True, a lot of Americans (according to polls) think either Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan is the greatest President of all time. Why? They forgot to avoid polling James Carville and James Baker III.

People like Lindbergh and Douglass are seen by some as not only damaging their reputation, but being a traitor to their cause. Douglass was deemed as an Uncle Tom, and Lindbergh -- at best a Nazi sympathizer, at worse he acted exactly as he did in Philip Roth's The Plot Against America. Which is unlikely.

But I think political affiliations should be taken with a grain of salt when analyzing if a person is truly historically influential.

The idea that Frederick Douglass was viewed as an Uncle Tom is completely new to me, and I'd be interested in seeing support for that argument. He consulted with Stowe during the writing of Uncle Tom's Cabin, but I've never encountered any evidence that he was viewed poorly by the very slaves he was working so hard to free.

[Spree]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

The idea that Frederick Douglass was viewed as an Uncle Tom is completely new to me, and I'd be interested in seeing support for that argument. He consulted with Stowe during the writing of Uncle Tom's Cabin, but I've never encountered any evidence that he was viewed poorly by the very slaves he was working so hard to free.

Since Wikipedia probably spent about 35 edits getting the exact wording of the most politically correct definition of "Uncle Tom" that they could, I'll use theirs:

"Uncle Tom is a pejorative for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation."

These "unnecessary accommodations" in Douglass's case would be advising his people to speak, dress, and act like white people.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm in this thread to represent all black people. WHAT UP

[INDalltheway]

I'm going to throw Lew Wallace out there.. Look him up and tell me what you guys think.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Spree

Since Wikipedia probably spent about 35 edits getting the exact wording of the most politically correct definition of "Uncle Tom" that they could, I'll use theirs:

"Uncle Tom is a pejorative for a black person who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation."

These "unnecessary accommodations" in Douglass's case would be advising his people to speak, dress, and act like white people.

I'm familiar with the concept of an 'Uncle Tom'. I am unaware of any evidence that Douglass advised anyone to speak, dress, or act like a white person. He did however campaign forcefully for abolition, equal rights, and educational opportunities. Do you have any citations for such claims, or for the more general charge that he was accused of being an Uncle Tom? I'd be interested to read them.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Didn't mean to say Revere didn't do anything of historical importance. Just that he didn't do what he's most famously known for. Seems Israel Bissell should be credited for that ride.

Longfellow's poem was about riding to warn the colonists at Lexington and Concord. Revere made it to Lexington, was stopped by a British patrol between there and Concord, where Dr. Prescott escaped through the woods and warned Concord residents. Bissell's ride to Philadelphia was nice, but he didn't come anywhere near Lexington and Concord where the battles took place at dawn.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I'm in this thread to represent all black people. WHAT UP

I submit Charles Hamilton Houston, possibly the greatest African-American lawyer ever. He was the first lawyer to chip away at Jim Crow laws, winning a series of cases that set up the precedents for Brown v. Board of Education. He didn't live to try that case (his more famous protege Thurgood Marshall did), but it was merely the end of the line of a lifetime of work that he had started.

[TroyF]

Dusko Popov and all of the other British double agents in WWII. If you ever have a chance to read about the things they did, take the time to do it.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

I'm going to throw Lew Wallace out there.. Look him up and tell me what you guys think.

Crawfordsville. REPRESENT!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Spree

But you can't argue that Douglass is less revered than King (maybe not Malcolm X,) partly because I think (?) his advice for black people at one point was to speak nice and dress properly, exactly in those shallow terms.

{scratches head for a moment}

Doesn't it seem at least somewhat likely that, sitting here today, Douglass might seem less revered than King to a significant degrees because there's a lot more people alive today that remember King than remember Douglass?

I hate to throw a bit of practical reality into an otherwise intellectual discussion but given the advantage of the advances in mass media in King's era vs Douglass' era, I have to think there's a certain inherent advantage there.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Spree: Rodney is a poster on this board.

Rodney Polston: The man who introduced the Double Wing to Djibouti.