John TV

Airhog · 03-05-2003, 03:33 AM

Here in oklahoma city, we until just recently had a tv show that aired once a week on the city channel, that featured the pictures of men arressted of soliciting prostitution and women who are prostutes What is the legality of this situation? It seems to me like the government doesnt have the right to do this. Now taking this one step further, is a private citizen that drives around and if he spots you having sex with a prostitute, He will call the cops on you and file a report. He also will take some video footage of you caught in the act and post your picture on the web.

Wouldnt it be extremely easy to sue this person?

forgot to include website.

http://www.videovigilante.com/

CamEdwards · 03-05-2003, 05:15 AM

hey airhog...

I'm interviewing the video vigilante on KTOK at 8:15 this morning, then taking calls about this very subject.

BBatesOKC · 03-05-2003, 07:49 AM

Airhog,

Being the topic of discussion - Let me answer your question if I may.

As for the city posting the information - The identity of any person charged with a crime is a matter of public record and therefore is subject to being made known to the general public (not unlike news stations and radio station do when they go through the police blotters daily looking for juicy stories). The only thin line the city walked was in publishing the photos of those charged but not yet convicted of a crime. Seven other major cities have some form of John TV. Half post the photos of those accused and half limit exposure to those convicted. I have made contact with all 7 cities and none has been sued for publishing individuals identities. OKC ran the risk of being sued only because they were not consistent in how they applied the municipal code. That left the door open for an individual to sue based on the fact that many others who had been charged and convicted of prostitution had not had their identities made public.

As for me - I have been doing this for 7 years now without a single civilian complaint being brought to my attention by the city. A few people I have made public (either by posting them on my web site or making the video available to national/local news broadcasts) have hired lawyers and threatened to sue. In every case it never went further than a meeting between their lawyer and mine. They were reminded that no law was broken on my part, that their client was the one breaking the law and that no damages could be applied to my actions (being that it was their illegal actions that led to their public humiliation).

Additionally, like it or not - when you are within the view of the public you are subject to public scrutiny. Couple that with the fact you are breaking the law and you have no defense. I use the same laws that the local media does. Most people do not realize that there is no clear definition of "the media" and that there are no specific laws that give journalists anymore rights than you and I have. Do you think Brad Edwards or any other news station gets permission before taping some criminal (or even just a suspected criminal)? No way. Like it or not, even when you are in your car - if you are on public property, someone else's property or on property legally defined as a place of public accommodation, then you legally have no reasonable expectation of privacy (this includes video taping).

Keep in mind, I tried many other less public avenues to impact street prostitution. None were effective until I picked up my video camera.

Tarkus · 03-05-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Airhog
Now taking this one step further, is a private citizen that drives around and if he spots you having sex with a prostitute, He will call the cops on you and file a report. He also will take some video footage of you caught in the act and post your picture on the web.

We'll, if people were having sex out in the open where someone could videotape them, I'd probably do it too!

Tarkus

panerd · 03-05-2003, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BBatesOKC
Airhog,

Being the topic of discussion - Let me answer your question if I may.

As for the city posting the information - The identity of any person charged with a crime is a matter of public record and therefore is subject to being made known to the general public (not unlike news stations and radio station do when they go through the police blotters daily looking for juicy stories). The only thin line the city walked was in publishing the photos of those charged but not yet convicted of a crime. Seven other major cities have some form of John TV. Half post the photos of those accused and half limit exposure to those convicted. I have made contact with all 7 cities and none has been sued for publishing individuals identities. OKC ran the risk of being sued only because they were not consistent in how they applied the municipal code. That left the door open for an individual to sue based on the fact that many others who had been charged and convicted of prostitution had not had their identities made public.

As for me - I have been doing this for 7 years now without a single civilian complaint being brought to my attention by the city. A few people I have made public (either by posting them on my web site or making the video available to national/local news broadcasts) have hired lawyers and threatened to sue. In every case it never went further than a meeting between their lawyer and mine. They were reminded that no law was broken on my part, that their client was the one breaking the law and that no damages could be applied to my actions (being that it was their illegal actions that led to their public humiliation).

Additionally, like it or not - when you are within the view of the public you are subject to public scrutiny. Couple that with the fact you are breaking the law and you have no defense. I use the same laws that the local media does. Most people do not realize that there is no clear definition of "the media" and that there are no specific laws that give journalists anymore rights than you and I have. Do you think Brad Edwards or any other news station gets permission before taping some criminal (or even just a suspected criminal)? No way. Like it or not, even when you are in your car - if you are on public property, someone else's property or on property legally defined as a place of public accommodation, then you legally have no reasonable expectation of privacy (this includes video taping).

Keep in mind, I tried many other less public avenues to impact street prostitution. None were effective until I picked up my video camera.

Thanks Big Brother! Let's wash out all of the bookies next. God forbid that consenting adults would take part in something that you don't approve of.

SplitPersonality1 · 03-05-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by panerd
Thanks Big Brother! Let's wash out all of the bookies next. God forbid that consenting adults would take part in something that you don't approve of.

I would agree with this except for the fact that prostitutin is an illegal activity. The fact that it involves two consenting adults is not an issue here.

Fritz · 03-05-2003, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by panerd
Thanks Big Brother! Let's wash out all of the bookies next. God forbid that consenting adults would take part in something that you don't approve of.

pesky laws

panerd · 03-05-2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SplitPersonality1
I would agree with this except for the fact that prostitutin is an illegal activity. The fact that it involves two consenting adults is not an issue here.

Agree with you that prostitution is illegal and techincally what this guy is doing is not, but the guy just sounds like a voyour who needs to get a regular job that he can enjoy and devote more time to. Why not join the police force and stomp out all of the prostitution? Unless everyone charged in the greater OKC area is listed on the site, it sounds more national enquirior than legit crime fighting. Just my $0.02.

panerd · 03-05-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
pesky laws

I'm sure this is a carryover from the Master's discussion. Oh well if we want to spend our time fighting adults having sex and people betting money (which are both legal in some parts of our great nation) than go ahead. These two activities hardly rate as things that I am proud of my police force devoting their time to.

Marmel · 03-05-2003, 12:17 PM

Some people have nothing better to do, I suppose. I think some people would be better off just minding thier own business.

If somebody put my picture up on the internet in that situation, I wouldn't go to a lawyer, I would go to a guy with a baseball bat, and a need for $100.

oykib · 03-05-2003, 12:27 PM

I don't understand why someone who picks up a prostitute doesn't just bring a camera with him. That should be the new code.

"Hey, Baby, how much to be an actress in my 'art' movie?"

"You're under arrest. I'm a cop"

"For what?"

"Solicitation of Prostitution."

"No, I'm a Porno Director. Porn's all good and legal. You can arrest me, but I'll sue your department for violation of my freedom of expression."

"Drats! Foiled again!"

"Yeah, go stop a mugger..."

Bee · 03-05-2003, 12:46 PM

Prostitution is not a victimless crime. I think comparing it to crimes that generally are, does a great injustice. JMO.

BBatesOKC · 03-05-2003, 12:49 PM

Just keep in mind that I am not fighting your right to have sex with anyone you want to. You don't see me taping guys going into massage parlors or other BCD (Behind Closed Doors) action.

I am fighting the fact that these women endanger our communites and solicit right off our neighborhood streets. Then they literally will park in your driveway and have sex if they think you are not home.

You can not tell me that you actually are in favor of hookers working off school proerty and then having sex in church parking lots?

You don't have to like my approach - but until you can give me a better real life solution being a critic accomplishes nothing.

oykib · 03-05-2003, 12:50 PM

Prostitution is as victimless as any crime on the books. The trouble with prostitution is with the exploitation that results from the fact that it's an underground activity. I haven't heard of all the troubles caused in the community of the Mustang Ranch or whatever.

Marmel · 03-05-2003, 01:02 PM

What is wrong with a church parking lot?

Bee · 03-05-2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oykib
Prostitution is as victimless as any crime on the books. The trouble with prostitution is with the exploitation that results from the fact that it's an underground activity. I haven't heard of all the troubles caused in the community of the Mustang Ranch or whatever.

Well, we are in complete disagreement. There are a huge number of prostitutes that are forced into the business and brutally raped and often killed. The victims are the children and teenagers that are forced into the business. If you really think there are no victims of prostitution then you really are sadly misinformed.

Marmel · 03-05-2003, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BBatesOKC
Just keep in mind that I am not fighting your right to have sex with anyone you want to. You don't see me taping guys going into massage parlors or other BCD (Behind Closed Doors) action.

I am fighting the fact that these women endanger our communites and solicit right off our neighborhood streets. Then they literally will park in your driveway and have sex if they think you are not home.

You can not tell me that you actually are in favor of hookers working off school proerty and then having sex in church parking lots?

You don't have to like my approach - but until you can give me a better real life solution being a critic accomplishes nothing.

You have been doing it for 7 years, and they are still "endangering" your community, soliciting at school, and screwing in a church parking lot. Seems like you have accomplished quite a bit in those 7 years. Keep up the good work.

Fritz · 03-05-2003, 01:15 PM

nope, no carryover at all.

I too think prostitution, gambling, and sex with 14 year olds should be legal everywhere!

Quote:

Originally posted by panerd
I'm sure this is a carryover from the Master's discussion. Oh well if we want to spend our time fighting adults having sex and people betting money (which are both legal in some parts of our great nation) than go ahead. These two activities hardly rate as things that I am proud of my police force devoting their time to.

panerd · 03-05-2003, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
Well, we are in complete disagreement. There are a huge number of prostitutes that are forced into the business and brutally raped and often killed. The victims are the children and teenagers that are forced into the business. If you really think there are no victims of prostitution then you really are sadly misinformed.

I have to agree with oykib on this one. All of the negatives you are quoting are based on the fact that prostitution is illegal so it is forced into an underworld type of environment. I am going to be out on a limb here and compare it to alcohol's prohibition in the 1930's. Back then if I wanted a 6-pack I had to deal with the underworld to get my six pack. The beer made have been made with child labor and certainly there was some danger to obtaining the alcohol. (And certainly no age requirement, since it was illegal) Now I just go down to my gas station and buy from somebody who is trained to check if I am 21. As long as I don't drive after drinking it, I hurt nobody but myself.

The legal brothels in Nevada don't take 13-year old Koreans off the street. The customers can't beat the shit out of the hookers as there is security to make sure that doesn't happen. Much of your problems that you discuss above come directly as a result of prostitution being illegal. It it were legal than the evils you dicuss above would be cut down. Of course we could also go around videotaping people having illegal sex and that will solve the problem.

panerd · 03-05-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
nope, no carryover at all.

I too think prostitution, gambling, and sex with 14 year olds should be legal everywhere!

No, I don't agree with the last one. I would say protitution, gambling, not wearing a seat belt, stop signs in the middle of nowhere at 2 in the morning, 12 empty handicapped spaces in front of best buy. These seem a little more similar than raping a 14-year old.

Maybe the guys at Augusta will say that they have prostitiutes that frequent their parties and then the conservative element of this board will rush to prostitution's defense.

Bee · 03-05-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by panerd
I have to agree with oykib on this one. All of the negatives you are quoting are based on the fact that due to prostitution being illegal it is forced into an underworld type of environment. I am going to be out on a limb here and compare it to alcohol's prohibition in the 1930's. Back then if I wanted a 6-pack I had to deal with the underworld to get by six pack. The beer made have been made with child labor and certainly there was some danger to obtaining the alcohol. (And certainly no age requirement, since it was illegal) Now I just go down to my gas station and buy from somebody who is trained to check if I am 21. As long as I don't drive after drinking it, I hurt nobody but myself.

The legal brothels in Nevada don't take 13-year old Koreans off the street. The customers can't beat the shit out of the hookers as there is security to make sure that doesn't happen. Much of your problems that you discuss above come directly as a result of prostitution being illegal. It it were legal than the evils you dicuss above would be cut down. Of course we could also go around videotaping people having illegal sex and that will solve the problem.

The disagreement was if prostitution was a victimless crime. If you legalize and regulate it, many things change. The disagreement is concerning the current situation, not concerning what happens if it is legalized (which I would be in favor of with strict regulation). That being said, it doesn't change the fact that currently prostitution is far from a victimless crime.

I personally have not made any comments concerning the videotaping. I really have no feelings one way or the other about that aspect of this thread. My concern was portraying prostitution as an "innocent" crime where everyone is a consenting adult. That's just not the case by a long shot.

Fritz · 03-05-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by panerd
No, I don't agree with the last one. I would say protitution, gambling, not wearing a seat belt, stop signs in the middle of nowhere at 2 in the morning, 12 empty handicapped spaces in front of best buy. These seem a little more similar than raping a 14-year old.

But 14 year olds can have consentual sex in "some parts of our great nation." That was one of your arguments, right?

rkmsuf · 03-05-2003, 02:09 PM

If by doing this you are planning on wiping out prostitution I'd say you'd be better served by participating in the next big invention thread...

Unless somehow we all morph into Kodos this will always be an industry. I don't know where you live but I'd suggest moving if the conditions are that oppressive...there are many, many communities out there that don't feature whores parking in your driveway...

Airhog · 03-05-2003, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BBatesOKC
Airhog,

Being the topic of discussion - Let me answer your question if I may.

Im actually pretty surprised that you signed up and posted, and I thank you for taking time to do so. I didnt post this in disagreement with what you do, I think you are trying to do your best to clean up the streets. We do have a few legal types on this board, and we usually have some pretty good discussions because of difference of opinions. I also would like to say thanks for busting that guy own by the BMX track. I ride there and was president of the organization last year. We have quite a few homeless, and hopefully what you caught, isnt a common act out there.

BBatesOKC · 03-05-2003, 03:02 PM

No problem - trust me, I get this sorta response every time I post. Usually I ignore these threads, but since I saw Cam had posted regarding my interview and your question does come up alot, I figured I'd answer it. It's amazing how many critics I have when people can hide freely behind their computer monitors. They always try and make the same tired arguments "make it legal and it will go away," "Leave them alone, they should be able to have sex where ever they want," "It's a victimless crime" and on and on.

I have spent 7 years in this fight and those arguments are based on nothing. I have contacted most of the brothels that are legal in Nevada. I have taped conversations with the 2 that would talk to me. They admit they know of not a single girl working for them that came from the streets. The police in one county admit that they write a few hundred tickets a year for illegal prostitution in the counties where prostitution is legal to some degree. Hell, only two hours away in Vegas, 1000's of tickets are written. Why would the girls risk it if they could only drive two hours and work legally?

You have two types of hookers. Those that truly choose this type of life and conduct business in privacy and those that are victims of circumstance (drugs, abuse, etc.) and have turned to the streets to survive (at the expense of law abiding citizens).

I would say that the 1st type is of little consequence to society at large, while the 2nd must be stopped. Sure, I would rather see a halfway house go up and see all the girls reformed. But that isn't going to happen anytime soon. If I could sell my footage for enough to start such a program, those who know me know that, that is exactly what I would do. If a donor would come forward with the money, I would put down my camcorder and do everything I could to make such a program a success. But I live in the real world and I don't believe in talk - I believe in action.

I seek the loudest voice I can and to educate myself on the issues. Sure we might disagree but I surely don't see any of you doing ANYTHING to promote those warped opinions you hold in such high regard.

Actually, I see that hooker take her customers there every so often. So often that I had already staked out a way to approach unnoticed. However, since catching her, I haven't seen her return.

rkmsuf · 03-05-2003, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Actually, I see that hooker take her customers there every so often. So often that I had already staked out a way to approach unnoticed. However, since catching her, I haven't seen her return.

That's because she went somewhere else.

Honestly, get a job in law enforcement if you feel that strongly. Part of this is that you feel like the man...it's obvious from the tone of your post.

I share the opinion that prostitution is wrong but unlike you since I'm not in the government or law enforcement ranks I don't pretend like I'm the savior of society.

Your little stunts are all well and good but if you want to affect real change get into politics, lobby or become a police officer...

Craptacular · 03-05-2003, 03:11 PM

Which would be a better show: this stuff, or the Car Wash Change Thief Action Squad?

Airhog · 03-05-2003, 03:19 PM

Well we see alot of people go up there and probably have sex. Usually they are far enough away during the summer that we cannot see anything up there that far back. And we have no idea if they are married couples or hookers. I have showed my friend and current vice president the pictures from your website. Hopefully this will open the eyes of people out there, and they will take steps to limit this type of behavior when we are having offical functions. Lets face it, we are just located in a bad part of town. I personally do not like to be out there alone, even though I have before due to necessity. A girl was raped out there one morning last year.

Okay sorry for the ramble, but I have to agree with what you are saying. obviously fining and jailing these women has little effect. Most of them have gotten into this lifestyle and refuse to change even though they are endangering their own life.

BBatesOKC · 03-05-2003, 03:27 PM

You really don't have a clue do you? Become a Cop?!!? HaHaHa - you wanna talk about not having any power to enact change.

Politics? You are at the whim of everybody else.

It is sad when society has given up so much that they don't see their own strength. There was a day when we had pioneers - they were not law officers or puny politicians. They were people who believed in something and didn't rely on others to fight there battles.

If you think citizens should just sit back and rely on 9-1-1 then you really do live in a fantasy world.

"That's because she went somewhere else." -- That's right - TO JAIL

"I share the opinion that prostitution is wrong but unlike you since I'm not in the government or law enforcement ranks I don't pretend like I'm the savior of society." -- That's right, you have created a nice comfortable place for yourself and choose to go through life with blinders on. I was not raised that way, nor do I teach my child those spineless morals.

I have no taste to continue this fight here. My critics are of little consequence since they cower in the shadows of their keyboards. If it makes you feel better about your own inabilities then satisfy yourself with the belief that I'm some homeless, sexual deviant, living off welfare, molesting children, wacking off to my vcr and lurking in the shadows. Better yet - maybe I'm just the subject of ghost stories told by prostitutes to their bastard children... "Don't dally too long with a poor innocent John or the evil Video Vigilante may get you!"

rkmsuf · 03-05-2003, 03:32 PM

based on the fact you can't conduct a discussion I come to no other conclusion that you are a publicity seeking moron who does this for self pleasure...

You remind me of John Lithgow in Footloose...

BBatesOKC · 03-05-2003, 03:32 PM

Well, the BMX track is not nearly as frequented as the Park to the East and the river area.

I bet you do get alot of homeless since they prefer to follow the train tracks as opposed to the streets.

I was actually considering trying to get info. on getting my 11-year-old son into BMX racing. His school district did away with sports this year and he is bouncing off the walls. I thought it would be fun for him this summer and fun for us to watch.

Can you point me in a direction for more information? You can always email me at [email protected] (sure, anyone who wants to send me spam go ahead, knock yourself out)

Marmel · 03-05-2003, 03:34 PM

Aren't you using a keyboard here to tell rkm that he has spineless morals and lives in a fantasy world?

Here is what you are accomplishing, and if it makes you feel good, and you don't mind being an ass, that is fine:

1) making yourself feel good (which, seems like you have created a comfort zone for yourself. Realize each person is comfortable in thier own way, and have their own morals, your morals are obviously spineless to others)
2) making people who have a tough life (according to you), have a tougher life by being put in jail
3) being obnoxious by putting people's pictures on the internet.
4) making hookers find a new place where they can have sex.

Congrats on your accomplishments.

Marmel · 03-05-2003, 03:35 PM

dola....

your 'hiding behind the keyboard' crap is so baseless here. How else would we correspond with you?

Airhog · 03-05-2003, 03:46 PM

Yeah we have maybe 6 or 8 people that live along the railroad track. The only problem they have ever been, was getting into the porta pottie. Our biggest problem is the vandalism, and other crimes that are commited in the area. We actually had about 1500 dollars worth of equipment stolen from our storage building out there. Someone sawed the door right off the hinges.

I passed on your e-mail to my friend that is vice president and he can fill you in on all the details. Your best bet is too call the track hotline 235-3602. we practice on tuesdays from 6:30-8:30 and race on thursdays with signups from 6-7pm and sundays with signups from 1-2pm. You can come out and watch for free, and get any questions you have anwsered. you can also goto
http://www.okbmx.com or http://ababmx.com the latter site is our sanctioning body, and does have some information about bmx.

panerd · 03-05-2003, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BBatesOKC
It's amazing how many critics I have when people can hide freely behind their computer monitors.

Or hide behind a tree and photograph people having sex. Now explain to me who has the problem. And where exactly is your expose site located? Why are you hiding behind your computer instead of confronting the problem head on?

I agree with a poster from earlier. I don't live in the nicest neighborhood, but I sure as hell don't have hookers turning tricks in my driveway! Maybe you need to move.

Airhog · 03-05-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by panerd
Or hide behind a tree and photograph people having sex. Now explain to me who has the problem. And where exactly is your expose site located? Why are you hiding behind your computer instead of confronting the problem head on?

I agree with a poster from earlier. I don't live in the nicest neighborhood, but I sure as hell don't have hookers turning tricks in my driveway! Maybe you need to move.

did you even look at the website? Probably not. He usually approaches the vechile films the act, then calls the police and files a complaint.

sachmo71 · 03-05-2003, 04:50 PM

It's not amazing...it's the internet!

Ksyrup · 03-05-2003, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rkmsuf
You remind me of John Lithgow in Footloose...

Damn boy, you can work a reference to an 80's movie into any thread there is. I'm impressed.

"Film you having sex, film me having sex, filim everybody having sex!"

BishopMVP · 03-05-2003, 05:27 PM

It's Rowdy Roddy Peeper!

"But Marge, he's evil! Listen to the music!"

CamEdwards · 03-05-2003, 05:35 PM

Thanks for stopping by Brian. Welcome to the friendly world of FOFC Central. Your first day and they're already treating you like a veteran.

Fritz · 03-05-2003, 06:09 PM

I applaud BBatesOKC for stepping up as a citizen.

Bravo.

panerd · 03-05-2003, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Airhog
did you even look at the website? Probably not. He usually approaches the vechile films the act, then calls the police and files a complaint.

Yes I did actually. And, like I said earlier, he seems like a very angry man with a chip on his shoulder. I agree with several earlier posters that it isn't possible to disagree with this man or else you are an idiot.

I firmly believe that prostitution is a victimless crime. There have been some very valid points made in this discussion about underage prostitutes and assualted prostitutes. Unfortunatly, they were only made by members of this board. The video vigilante's textbook response seems to be "You are an idiot" Read his response to his appearance on Cam Edward's show.

http://www.videovigilante.com/camedwardsinterview.htm

I applaud his integrity, but think his approach is way too in your face for me. Tell me, am I supposed to feel sorry for him if one of the Johns kicks his ass?

Fritz · 03-05-2003, 06:39 PM

Are you supposed to feel sorry for the Johns?

CamEdwards · 03-05-2003, 06:48 PM

I have to point out something that Mr. Bates said on his website.

Quoting here... " After the interview, callers were invited to call-in and give their opinions. Naturally, I was unable to respond.
I have provided this area to address those comments."

Mr. Bates specifically told me he was not interested in taking calls from listeners. He said if I wanted to interview him and then take calls (which is my normal format anyway) that would be fine.

I do have a problem with the way this was worded, considering the format was how he wanted it. The way it's written, it sounds like we didn't want him to be able to respond.

rkmsuf · 03-06-2003, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Damn boy, you can work a reference to an 80's movie into any thread there is. I'm impressed.

I was rarely seen on the streets during that decade...someday the useless knowledge is going to pay off big time and I'll be there...which reminds me of:

"But someday, man, someday.
When you're outta here and you've
forgotten all about this place...
And they've forgotten all about you
and you're wrapped up in your own
pathetic life...I'm gonna be there.
That's right. And I'm gonna kick
the living shit out of you, man, I'm
gonna knock your dick in the dirt!"

Tarkus · 03-06-2003, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BBatesOKC
No problem - trust me, I get this sorta response every time I post. Usually I ignore these threads, but since I saw Cam had posted regarding my interview and your question does come up alot, I figured I'd answer it.

Um, you've posted five times, four in this thread.

Tarkus

BBatesOKC · 03-06-2003, 02:38 PM

Thanks for the BMX info. I will give them a call. I think my son would love it. I see people riding there on weekends and week days. looked pretty unorganized (as in no planned event). Do they allow the general public to ride when events are not scheduled?

Cam, yeah I feel like it is one big happy family.

You can't do this for 7 years and not have thick skin. You should read about my efforts on the undergorund pro prostitution forums - Geeeeez.

I could feed the homeless, volunteer at the Rest Shelter, start and volunteer at a crisis hotline, start a non-profit benefitting Oklahoma Teens, or volunteer with the local neighborhood alliance and everybody would pat me on the back. But try and rid neighborhoods of prostitutes that literally work off elementary school property and I'm a mean, sexually deviant individual.

Oh yeah, I did/do all that other stuff, I just don't blow my own horn (no pun intended) on my website or during media interviews to try and justify my prostitution activism. I stick to the topic at hand (again, no pun intended).

Just to clarify Cam's earlier post - Within 20 minutes of getting his email regard clarifying my website I did and responded with why I posted what I did. Beleive it or not I'm a very approachable person who simply has an opinion and actually gets off my butt to support it.

Airhog · 03-06-2003, 04:11 PM

Its a public park, so your welcome to ride anytime you like. However, it really pisses us off when people ride in the mud

I hate raking out the ruts.

kcchief19 · 03-06-2003, 09:49 PM

Sometimes this board perplexes me.

Generally, the mood of this board is very "free" -- everybody should be allowed to do whatever they want. Then when somebody does just that, they get shot down.

What I have come to the conclusion is that people want to do whatever they want -- but nobody else has that right.

So what if this guy puts his effort into busting johns? It's free country and he's not breaking the law. Same thing with Martha Burke. If she wants to spend her time screaming at the wind to get Augusta to let women in, what does it matter to you? It's a free country and she's not breaking the law.

I'm amazed at how many people cherish the freedom of this country, but the moment that somebody else excercises those freedoms, they get bent out of shape.

Craptacular · 03-06-2003, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kcchief19
Same thing with Martha Burke. If she wants to spend her time screaming at the wind to get Augusta to let women in, what does it matter to you? It's a free country and she's not breaking the law.

I'm amazed at how many people cherish the freedom of this country, but the moment that somebody else excercises those freedoms, they get bent out of shape.

We already have a thread dealing with this issue (Burke and Augusta). She absolutely has the right to say what she believes. We absolutely have the right to vehemently disagree with her. Many of us believe that the members of Augusta are exercising their freedoms, and Burke is getting all bent out of shape about it.

03-05-2003, 05:15 AM	#2
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	hey airhog... I'm interviewing the video vigilante on KTOK at 8:15 this morning, then taking calls about this very subject. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-05-2003, 12:17 PM	#10
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Some people have nothing better to do, I suppose. I think some people would be better off just minding thier own business. If somebody put my picture up on the internet in that situation, I wouldn't go to a lawyer, I would go to a guy with a baseball bat, and a need for $100. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions." Last edited by Marmel : 03-05-2003 at 12:19 PM.

03-05-2003, 01:02 PM	#15
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	What is wrong with a church parking lot? __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

03-05-2003, 02:09 PM	#23
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	If by doing this you are planning on wiping out prostitution I'd say you'd be better served by participating in the next big invention thread... Unless somehow we all morph into Kodos this will always be an industry. I don't know where you live but I'd suggest moving if the conditions are that oppressive...there are many, many communities out there that don't feature whores parking in your driveway... __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

03-05-2003, 03:19 PM	#28
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	Well we see alot of people go up there and probably have sex. Usually they are far enough away during the summer that we cannot see anything up there that far back. And we have no idea if they are married couples or hookers. I have showed my friend and current vice president the pictures from your website. Hopefully this will open the eyes of people out there, and they will take steps to limit this type of behavior when we are having offical functions. Lets face it, we are just located in a bad part of town. I personally do not like to be out there alone, even though I have before due to necessity. A girl was raped out there one morning last year. Okay sorry for the ramble, but I have to agree with what you are saying. obviously fining and jailing these women has little effect. Most of them have gotten into this lifestyle and refuse to change even though they are endangering their own life. __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

03-05-2003, 07:49 AM	#3
BBatesOKC n00b Join Date: Mar 2003	Airhog, Being the topic of discussion - Let me answer your question if I may. As for the city posting the information - The identity of any person charged with a crime is a matter of public record and therefore is subject to being made known to the general public (not unlike news stations and radio station do when they go through the police blotters daily looking for juicy stories). The only thin line the city walked was in publishing the photos of those charged but not yet convicted of a crime. Seven other major cities have some form of John TV. Half post the photos of those accused and half limit exposure to those convicted. I have made contact with all 7 cities and none has been sued for publishing individuals identities. OKC ran the risk of being sued only because they were not consistent in how they applied the municipal code. That left the door open for an individual to sue based on the fact that many others who had been charged and convicted of prostitution had not had their identities made public. As for me - I have been doing this for 7 years now without a single civilian complaint being brought to my attention by the city. A few people I have made public (either by posting them on my web site or making the video available to national/local news broadcasts) have hired lawyers and threatened to sue. In every case it never went further than a meeting between their lawyer and mine. They were reminded that no law was broken on my part, that their client was the one breaking the law and that no damages could be applied to my actions (being that it was their illegal actions that led to their public humiliation). Additionally, like it or not - when you are within the view of the public you are subject to public scrutiny. Couple that with the fact you are breaking the law and you have no defense. I use the same laws that the local media does. Most people do not realize that there is no clear definition of "the media" and that there are no specific laws that give journalists anymore rights than you and I have. Do you think Brad Edwards or any other news station gets permission before taping some criminal (or even just a suspected criminal)? No way. Like it or not, even when you are in your car - if you are on public property, someone else's property or on property legally defined as a place of public accommodation, then you legally have no reasonable expectation of privacy (this includes video taping). Keep in mind, I tried many other less public avenues to impact street prostitution. None were effective until I picked up my video camera.

03-05-2003, 12:27 PM	#11
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	I don't understand why someone who picks up a prostitute doesn't just bring a camera with him. That should be the new code. "Hey, Baby, how much to be an actress in my 'art' movie?" "You're under arrest. I'm a cop" "For what?" "Solicitation of Prostitution." "No, I'm a Porno Director. Porn's all good and legal. You can arrest me, but I'll sue your department for violation of my freedom of expression." "Drats! Foiled again!" "Yeah, go stop a mugger..."

03-05-2003, 12:46 PM	#12
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Prostitution is not a victimless crime. I think comparing it to crimes that generally are, does a great injustice. JMO.

03-05-2003, 12:49 PM	#13
BBatesOKC n00b Join Date: Mar 2003	Just keep in mind that I am not fighting your right to have sex with anyone you want to. You don't see me taping guys going into massage parlors or other BCD (Behind Closed Doors) action. I am fighting the fact that these women endanger our communites and solicit right off our neighborhood streets. Then they literally will park in your driveway and have sex if they think you are not home. You can not tell me that you actually are in favor of hookers working off school proerty and then having sex in church parking lots? You don't have to like my approach - but until you can give me a better real life solution being a critic accomplishes nothing.

03-05-2003, 12:50 PM	#14
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Prostitution is as victimless as any crime on the books. The trouble with prostitution is with the exploitation that results from the fact that it's an underground activity. I haven't heard of all the troubles caused in the community of the Mustang Ranch or whatever.

03-05-2003, 03:02 PM	#25
BBatesOKC n00b Join Date: Mar 2003	No problem - trust me, I get this sorta response every time I post. Usually I ignore these threads, but since I saw Cam had posted regarding my interview and your question does come up alot, I figured I'd answer it. It's amazing how many critics I have when people can hide freely behind their computer monitors. They always try and make the same tired arguments "make it legal and it will go away," "Leave them alone, they should be able to have sex where ever they want," "It's a victimless crime" and on and on. I have spent 7 years in this fight and those arguments are based on nothing. I have contacted most of the brothels that are legal in Nevada. I have taped conversations with the 2 that would talk to me. They admit they know of not a single girl working for them that came from the streets. The police in one county admit that they write a few hundred tickets a year for illegal prostitution in the counties where prostitution is legal to some degree. Hell, only two hours away in Vegas, 1000's of tickets are written. Why would the girls risk it if they could only drive two hours and work legally? You have two types of hookers. Those that truly choose this type of life and conduct business in privacy and those that are victims of circumstance (drugs, abuse, etc.) and have turned to the streets to survive (at the expense of law abiding citizens). I would say that the 1st type is of little consequence to society at large, while the 2nd must be stopped. Sure, I would rather see a halfway house go up and see all the girls reformed. But that isn't going to happen anytime soon. If I could sell my footage for enough to start such a program, those who know me know that, that is exactly what I would do. If a donor would come forward with the money, I would put down my camcorder and do everything I could to make such a program a success. But I live in the real world and I don't believe in talk - I believe in action. I seek the loudest voice I can and to educate myself on the issues. Sure we might disagree but I surely don't see any of you doing ANYTHING to promote those warped opinions you hold in such high regard. Actually, I see that hooker take her customers there every so often. So often that I had already staked out a way to approach unnoticed. However, since catching her, I haven't seen her return.

03-05-2003, 03:11 PM	#27
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	Which would be a better show: this stuff, or the Car Wash Change Thief Action Squad?

03-05-2003, 03:27 PM	#29
BBatesOKC n00b Join Date: Mar 2003	You really don't have a clue do you? Become a Cop?!!? HaHaHa - you wanna talk about not having any power to enact change. Politics? You are at the whim of everybody else. It is sad when society has given up so much that they don't see their own strength. There was a day when we had pioneers - they were not law officers or puny politicians. They were people who believed in something and didn't rely on others to fight there battles. If you think citizens should just sit back and rely on 9-1-1 then you really do live in a fantasy world. "That's because she went somewhere else." -- That's right - TO JAIL "I share the opinion that prostitution is wrong but unlike you since I'm not in the government or law enforcement ranks I don't pretend like I'm the savior of society." -- That's right, you have created a nice comfortable place for yourself and choose to go through life with blinders on. I was not raised that way, nor do I teach my child those spineless morals. I have no taste to continue this fight here. My critics are of little consequence since they cower in the shadows of their keyboards. If it makes you feel better about your own inabilities then satisfy yourself with the belief that I'm some homeless, sexual deviant, living off welfare, molesting children, wacking off to my vcr and lurking in the shadows. Better yet - maybe I'm just the subject of ghost stories told by prostitutes to their bastard children... "Don't dally too long with a poor innocent John or the evil Video Vigilante may get you!"

03-05-2003, 03:32 PM	#30
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	based on the fact you can't conduct a discussion I come to no other conclusion that you are a publicity seeking moron who does this for self pleasure... You remind me of John Lithgow in Footloose... __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

03-05-2003, 03:34 PM	#32
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Aren't you using a keyboard here to tell rkm that he has spineless morals and lives in a fantasy world? Here is what you are accomplishing, and if it makes you feel good, and you don't mind being an ass, that is fine: 1) making yourself feel good (which, seems like you have created a comfort zone for yourself. Realize each person is comfortable in thier own way, and have their own morals, your morals are obviously spineless to others) 2) making people who have a tough life (according to you), have a tougher life by being put in jail 3) being obnoxious by putting people's pictures on the internet. 4) making hookers find a new place where they can have sex. Congrats on your accomplishments. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

03-05-2003, 03:35 PM	#33
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	dola.... your 'hiding behind the keyboard' crap is so baseless here. How else would we correspond with you? __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

03-05-2003, 03:46 PM	#34
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	Yeah we have maybe 6 or 8 people that live along the railroad track. The only problem they have ever been, was getting into the porta pottie. Our biggest problem is the vandalism, and other crimes that are commited in the area. We actually had about 1500 dollars worth of equipment stolen from our storage building out there. Someone sawed the door right off the hinges. I passed on your e-mail to my friend that is vice president and he can fill you in on all the details. Your best bet is too call the track hotline 235-3602. we practice on tuesdays from 6:30-8:30 and race on thursdays with signups from 6-7pm and sundays with signups from 1-2pm. You can come out and watch for free, and get any questions you have anwsered. you can also goto http://www.okbmx.com or http://ababmx.com the latter site is our sanctioning body, and does have some information about bmx. __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

03-05-2003, 04:50 PM	#37
sachmo71 The boy who cried Trout Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: TX	It's not amazing...it's the internet!

03-05-2003, 05:27 PM	#39
BishopMVP Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Concord, MA/UMass	It's Rowdy Roddy Peeper! "But Marge, he's evil! Listen to the music!" Last edited by BishopMVP : 03-05-2003 at 05:28 PM.

03-05-2003, 05:35 PM	#40
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	Thanks for stopping by Brian. Welcome to the friendly world of FOFC Central. Your first day and they're already treating you like a veteran. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-05-2003, 06:09 PM	#41
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	I applaud BBatesOKC for stepping up as a citizen. Bravo. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

03-05-2003, 06:39 PM	#43
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	Are you supposed to feel sorry for the Johns? __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

03-05-2003, 06:48 PM	#44
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	I have to point out something that Mr. Bates said on his website. Quoting here... " After the interview, callers were invited to call-in and give their opinions. Naturally, I was unable to respond. I have provided this area to address those comments." Mr. Bates specifically told me he was not interested in taking calls from listeners. He said if I wanted to interview him and then take calls (which is my normal format anyway) that would be fine. I do have a problem with the way this was worded, considering the format was how he wanted it. The way it's written, it sounds like we didn't want him to be able to respond. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-06-2003, 02:38 PM	#47
BBatesOKC n00b Join Date: Mar 2003	Thanks for the BMX info. I will give them a call. I think my son would love it. I see people riding there on weekends and week days. looked pretty unorganized (as in no planned event). Do they allow the general public to ride when events are not scheduled? Cam, yeah I feel like it is one big happy family. You can't do this for 7 years and not have thick skin. You should read about my efforts on the undergorund pro prostitution forums - Geeeeez. I could feed the homeless, volunteer at the Rest Shelter, start and volunteer at a crisis hotline, start a non-profit benefitting Oklahoma Teens, or volunteer with the local neighborhood alliance and everybody would pat me on the back. But try and rid neighborhoods of prostitutes that literally work off elementary school property and I'm a mean, sexually deviant individual. Oh yeah, I did/do all that other stuff, I just don't blow my own horn (no pun intended) on my website or during media interviews to try and justify my prostitution activism. I stick to the topic at hand (again, no pun intended). Just to clarify Cam's earlier post - Within 20 minutes of getting his email regard clarifying my website I did and responded with why I posted what I did. Beleive it or not I'm a very approachable person who simply has an opinion and actually gets off my butt to support it.

03-06-2003, 04:11 PM	#48
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	Its a public park, so your welcome to ride anytime you like. However, it really pisses us off when people ride in the mud I hate raking out the ruts. __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

03-06-2003, 09:49 PM	#49
kcchief19 Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Kansas City, MO	Sometimes this board perplexes me. Generally, the mood of this board is very "free" -- everybody should be allowed to do whatever they want. Then when somebody does just that, they get shot down. What I have come to the conclusion is that people want to do whatever they want -- but nobody else has that right. So what if this guy puts his effort into busting johns? It's free country and he's not breaking the law. Same thing with Martha Burke. If she wants to spend her time screaming at the wind to get Augusta to let women in, what does it matter to you? It's a free country and she's not breaking the law. I'm amazed at how many people cherish the freedom of this country, but the moment that somebody else excercises those freedoms, they get bent out of shape.

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