Switch Pitchers : Good Idea or Crazy Nonsense?

[DaddyTorgo]

This is sort of one of those ideas that I've always sort of...wondered about. Is it a genius idea or absolute lunacy? Think of how devestatingly effective it could be? Even if just from an intimidation / WTF factor

[Eaglesfan27]

What was the name of the pitcher that tried to do this a few years ago?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

What was the name of the pitcher that tried to do this a few years ago?

no idea. But i'm sorry I missed it. Seems like it would be a hell of a lot of work mechanically to get decent enough to be ML-caliber, but I don't see why it couldn't be done. Might even be beneficial, even out the wear+tear on the body

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

What was the name of the pitcher that tried to do this a few years ago?

I think Mike Maddux did it once or twice.

Edit: Nope, Greg Harris.

[Logan]

I thought this was going to be about swapping a lefty and righty between the mound and LF/RF when it's appropriate.

I played golf a couple weeks ago with a random guy. He started out by hooking the ball into the rough, just rolling into a wooded area. When he found his ball, I noticed he hit his approach shot left-handed. I could've sworn he teed off as a righty, so I asked him about it. Turns out he's ambidextrous, although he's stronger as a righty, but he carries a LH 5-iron and PW in his bag. Tremendous tool to have on the course.

[rowech]

Here's the crazy one I've had...

Have 11 pitchers who are capable of going 3 innings every three days. Game 1 sees 3 of them pitch 3 innings each, game 2 sees the next 3, and game 3 sees the final 3. If one runs into trouble, you use the other two pitchers to fill in the spots.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by rowech

Here's the crazy one I've had...

Have 11 pitchers who are capable of going 3 innings every three days. Game 1 sees 3 of them pitch 3 innings each, game 2 sees the next 3, and game 3 sees the final 3. If one runs into trouble, you use the other two pitchers to fill in the spots.

And Scott Boras takes a hit out on you.

[korme]

There's currently a dominating pitcher in college right now that throws lefty and righty...

[wade moore]

Someone told me about a guy that the Yankees drafted, but it might be the same guy Shorty is talking about...

[korme]

Throwing Batters Curves Before Throwing a Pitch

Chris Machian for The New York Times
In 18 appearances this season, with alternating arms, Venditte has a 3.29 earned run average.

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By ALAN SCHWARZ
Published: April 6, 2007
The pitch was nothing remarkable: Pat Venditte, Creighton University’s temporarily right-handed pitcher, threw a fastball past a Northern Iowa batter for a called strike three. It was his next windup that evinced this young pitcher’s uniqueness and, perhaps, professional future.
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Chris Machian for The New York Times
Venditte’s custom glove, with four finger holes flanked by two thumb holes.



As his teammates whipped the ball around the infield, Venditte smoothly, unthinkingly, removed his custom glove from his left hand and slipped it on his right. Moments later he leaned back, threw a strike left-handed to the next batter, and finished the side in order.
Venditte is believed to be the only ambidextrous pitcher in N.C.A.A. Division I college baseball, the ultimate relief specialist. A junior, he throws left-handed to lefties and right-handed to righties, and effectively. In a home game in Omaha last Friday, he allowed only one hit in five and a third shutout innings to earn the victory against Northern Iowa.
Because neither arm was particularly tired afterward, Venditte also pitched in both games of Creighton’s doubleheader against Northern Iowa two days later, retiring the only batter he faced (left-handed) in the first game and then tossing a shutout inning (pitching both ways) in the nightcap. He also pitched two innings, alternating arms, in Tuesday’s game against archrival Nebraska. Venditte (pronounced ven-DEH-tee) has a fine 3.29 earned run average in 18 appearances this season.
“I don’t think twice about it,” said Venditte, whose father, Pat Sr., taught him to throw with both arms when he was 3. “You grew up with it, you love it, you want to keep playing as long as you can.”
Venditte has improved so much in the past year that major league scouts are starting to consider him a possible late-round pick in this June’s amateur draft because of his versatility. “He could be an economical two-for-one,” Jerry Lafferty, a longtime scout for the Philadelphia Phillies, said last Friday while assessing the 21-year-old Venditte from behind the backstop.
College baseball has had a few switch-pitchers in the past 15 years, but the major leagues have had only one since the 19th century: Greg Harris, primarily a right-handed reliever for many clubs from 1981 through 1995, pitched one inning using both arms for the Montreal Expos in his final season. That outing was considered more stunt than strategy.
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Venditte is smoothly proficient from both sides. His deliveries are not mirror images of each other: as a right-hander he throws over the top and relatively hard, up to 91 miles an hour, with a tumbling curveball; as a left-hander, he relies on a whip-like sidearm delivery and a biting slider.
Umpires working Creighton’s games have to dust off seldom-used rules regarding switch-pitchers. Like everyone else, Venditte gets only eight warm-up pitches upon entering a game and five before any inning, whether he chooses to throw left-handed or right-handed, and may not warm up again if he changes arms midinning.
A switch-pitcher facing a switch-hitter could make a fine Abbott and Costello routine. Against Nebraska last year, a switch-hitter came to the plate right-handed, prompting Venditte to switch to his right arm, which caused the batter to move to the left-hand batter’s box, with Venditte switching his arm again. Umpires ultimately restored order, applying the rule (the same as that in the majors) that a pitcher must declare which arm he will use before throwing his first pitch and cannot change before the at-bat ends.
“Eventually, after 10 or 15 minutes, they got it figured out,” Venditte said with a smile.
Venditte’s customized Louisville Slugger glove is as distinctive as its owner: four fingers are flanked by two thumbs, perfectly symmetrical, so that he can slip it on either hand with ease. It allows him to change throwing arms so seamlessly during warmups — one second No. 27 is throwing left-handed, the next right-handed — that many unaware fans and opponents do double-takes.
“The first time you see him, it’s definitely a distraction,” said Northern Iowa shortstop Brandon Douglas, who struck out (right-handed) against Venditte last Friday. “On the bus ride to games people talk, ‘You should see this guy. It’s pretty neat.’ ”
Until teams actually face him, that is. Creighton’s coach, Ed Servais, initially resisted using Venditte both ways because, he said, “I am a traditionalist when it comes to baseball, and I didn’t want it to become a circus.” But Venditte proved his ability last season, when he used both arms in 22 games and struck out batters each way in 12 of them.



The Bluejays use Venditte as a long reliever so that he can be deployed at any point in any game. In the Northern Iowa game last Friday, for example, Venditte quelled a third-inning rally and then, facing a lineup that alternated its lefty and righty hitters, calmly switched throwing arms 10 times in the next five innings and allowed no runs and only one single. (Pitch limits are looser with Venditte because he shares the workload between his arms.)
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Pat Venditte’s name split a lineup card.




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“Usually you have to follow the hitter: a left-hander’s coming up, so you have to decide whether to bring a lefty in,” Creighton’s pitching coach, Rob Smith, said. “In this scenario, you have the control. It helps the depth of the bullpen a lot — you don’t have to burn a guy to get the matchup you want.”
Venditte is naturally right-handed. But his father, a former college ballplayer who at 61 still catches for his Men’s Senior Baseball League team, noticed his 3-year-old son picking up a ball and throwing it with both arms on his own, and encouraged him to pursue it.
“You’ve got to cultivate that,” said Pat Sr., who later built a batting cage, complete with lights, near the family’s home in an Italian neighborhood of Omaha.
To build his son’s muscles for baseball, Pat Sr. also taught Little Pat to punt with both legs and throw a football with both arms. “If I’d stuck with it,” he said, “he could have been a QB with both hands.”
Venditte’s mound versatility could become an interesting test of baseball’s trend toward specialization. Major league teams have long forced college stars who both pitch and hit — players like Dave Stieb, John Olerud and Brad Wilkerson — to focus on either pitching or hitting as professionals, claiming that one is difficult enough. But as bullpens become ever more segmented, with left-handed and right-handed specialists entering games for only one or two batters apiece, a pitcher who can do both for one salary would certainly be intriguing.
Venditte said he would probably return to Creighton for his senior season, trying to add a few miles an hour to his fastballs and enjoying the camaraderie of college ball. After throwing his five-plus innings last Friday, Venditte characteristically shunned ice treatment and skipped the trainer’s room. He joined the rest of his teammates by pulling the tarp across the diamond — with both hands, naturally.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by rowech

Here's the crazy one I've had...

Have 11 pitchers who are capable of going 3 innings every three days. Game 1 sees 3 of them pitch 3 innings each, game 2 sees the next 3, and game 3 sees the final 3. If one runs into trouble, you use the other two pitchers to fill in the spots.

i've had this idea too. Seems like it'd be cheaper...your pitchers would be fresher and able to pitch better pitchers in higher leverage situations

[wade moore]

Yeah... shorty and I are talking about the same guy.

[MrDNA]

This board is starting to freak me out. This is the second time this week that I was thinking about some random topic, logged on here and found a post about it. What's even more nuts is that some people have done it/are doing it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MrDNA

This board is starting to freak me out. This is the second time this week that I was thinking about some random topic, logged on here and found a post about it. What's even more nuts is that some people have done it/are doing it.

that's because this board contains the sum total of all knowledge in the universe.

it's all about knowing what to type in the search box, that's all

[Pumpy Tudors]

I typed "butts" in the search box and got a picture of Subby.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by rowech

Here's the crazy one I've had...

Have 11 pitchers who are capable of going 3 innings every three days. Game 1 sees 3 of them pitch 3 innings each, game 2 sees the next 3, and game 3 sees the final 3. If one runs into trouble, you use the other two pitchers to fill in the spots.

I believe Tony LaRussa tried this (or something like it) back during his days with the A's. It didn't work out too well, as I recall, and he abandoned it pretty quickly.

[Pumpy Tudors]

As far as the poll in this thread goes, what's so crazy about the idea of using an ambidextrous pitcher? What's so strange about it? If a guy can do it effectively, let him do it. Is there any reason not to? To me, that sounds like telling Chipper Jones to stop switch hitting.

[Logan]

There are a couple switch hitters that should stop switch hitting.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

As far as the poll in this thread goes, what's so crazy about the idea of using an ambidextrous pitcher? What's so strange about it? If a guy can do it effectively, let him do it. Is there any reason not to? To me, that sounds like telling Chipper Jones to stop switch hitting.

Originally Posted by Logan

There are a couple switch hitters that should stop switch hitting.

.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I guess it was a bad example for me to use Chipper Jones.

[Logan]

Back in 1998 when Todd Hundley came back from elbow surgery (and after we traded for Piazza, and stuck Hundley in LF with disastrous results) he insisted on maintaining his switch hitting.

As a lefty, he was awful. Checking baseball-reference.com, he hit .178 against RHP in 107 ABs, with 3 HRs.

There's no adjective for how he hit as a righty. In his 17 ABs, he got 1 hit and struck out 14 times. Yeah, keep switch hitting you dick.

(just for fun, adjusted to 650 at bats, he would have struck out 455 times)

[korme]

Someone a year or two ago dropped switch hitting, someone fairly decent I believe... I can't for the life of me think of who it was though. I want to say an infielder...

[clintl]

Originally Posted by rowech

Here's the crazy one I've had...

Have 11 pitchers who are capable of going 3 innings every three days. Game 1 sees 3 of them pitch 3 innings each, game 2 sees the next 3, and game 3 sees the final 3. If one runs into trouble, you use the other two pitchers to fill in the spots.

The problem with the idea is that your #1 pitcher is typically a lot better than your #11 pitcher.

[korme]

Originally Posted by clintl

The problem with the idea is that your #1 pitcher is typically a lot better than your #11 pitcher.

Yeah, I imagine you only try that with a very mediocre staff... what happens if your starter that is supposed to go just 3 innings retires the first 9 batters in a row, do you really pull him just to keep it systematic?

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Someone a year or two ago dropped switch hitting, someone fairly decent I believe... I can't for the life of me think of who it was though. I want to say an infielder...

It was more than a year or two ago - more like around 2000, I think - but J. T. Snow was originally a switch hitter who stopped switch hitting after doing poorly hitting right handed over a period of a few years.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Yeah, I imagine you only try that with a very mediocre staff... what happens if your starter that is supposed to go just 3 innings retires the first 9 batters in a row, do you really pull him just to keep it systematic?

Even on a mediocre staff, the #1 pitcher is going to be a lot better. To be honest, I think one of the reasons (besides steroids, maple bats, smaller ball parks, etc.) that offense has gone up is the massive expansion of bullpen staffs and the proliferation of bullpen use and specialization. Twenty-five years ago, a 4-man rotation and 5-man or 6-man bullpen was the norm. Now, a 12-man pitching staff is commonplace, and the guys at the bottom of the staff actually get used despite the fact that most of them are crap.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by clintl

The problem with the idea is that your #1 pitcher is typically a lot better than your #11 pitcher.

I think the idea is that paying 11 #5's is cheaper than a 1 through 11. (i.e. the performance drop from #1 to #5 is not as great as the salary drop).

[korme]

Originally Posted by clintl

It was more than a year or two ago - more like around 2000, I think - but J. T. Snow was originally a switch hitter who stopped switch hitting after doing poorly hitting right handed over a period of a few years.

That's who I was thinking of. Thanks. Year or two, 8 years ago, same thing.

[korme]

Originally Posted by clintl

Even on a mediocre staff, the #1 pitcher is going to be a lot better.

Have you looked at the Devil Rays roster?

[clintl]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

I think the idea is that paying 11 #5's is cheaper than a 1 through 11. (i.e. the performance drop from #1 to #5 is not as great as the salary drop).

I would disagree with that. Most #5 starters are not very good.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by clintl

I would disagree with that. Most #5 starters are not very good.

most are alright the first time through the order though, which is what we're essentially looking at.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Have you looked at the Devil Rays roster?

There's a difference between "mediocre" and "abysmal."

[clintl]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

most are alright the first time through the order though, which is what we're essentially looking at.

If you're only going to do it with your 5th starter, then that might be a viable strategy. But there's no way it makes sense to set up your pitching staff so that your ace only pitches three innings a start. You want him on the mound as much as possible.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by clintl

If you're only going to do it with your 5th starter, then that might be a viable strategy. But there's no way it makes sense to set up your pitching staff so that your ace only pitches three innings a start. You want him on the mound as much as possible.

you wouldn't have an "ace" though. So you wouldn't have to pay that high salary. You'd have 5 guys who were #4 or #5 guys.

[Logan]

The problem with this idea is that with the pitchers you'd be putting into these roles (you're not breaking the bank for anyone), this will essentially be a crapshoot for 3 innings, 3 times, every game. There's not many relievers out there who you can count on for a consistently good inning...how are you going to get 3 guys to give you 3 everyday? A pitching staff of #5 starters/6th or 7th inning guys could give up 15 runs a game.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

you wouldn't have an "ace" though. So you wouldn't have to pay that high salary. You'd have 5 guys who were #4 or #5 guys.

Then you had better work on developing a couple if you want to win a pennant. You are going to be a last place or next to last place team if all you have are a bunch of #4s and #5s, no matter how you use them.

[larrymcg421]

You could use your ace normally, and then split up your other starts in the above format by signing underpriced decent middle relievers.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

You could use your ace normally, and then split up your other starts in the above format by signing underpriced decent middle relievers.

1. Most decent middle relievers aren't going to be underpriced.
2. If you think someone is underpriced, you're probably going to be taking a gamble -- trying to catch lightning in a bottle. That's what you want to deal with over the course of an entire baseball season? Or maybe even multiple seasons?

[korme]

Originally Posted by Logan

1. Most decent middle relievers aren't going to be underpriced.
2. If you think someone is underpriced, you're probably going to be taking a gamble -- trying to catch lightning in a bottle. That's what you want to deal with over the course of an entire baseball season? Or maybe even multiple seasons?

It's all hypothetical, Jack

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

It's all hypothetical, Jack

So the point of this board is so we can all post our thoughts and no one can discuss why they will/won't work? Cool.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

You could use your ace normally, and then split up your other starts in the above format by signing underpriced decent middle relievers.

Who really cares about the salary? If you are winning with higher paid pitchers than it sure as hell is worth it instead of getting shelled with a bunch of throw away pitchers (which is all that you would get with that idea as no pitcher that could even be a #5 on another club would even buy into this as they would rather be a #5 somewhere with a chance to prove themselves than part of some gimmic rotation).

[EagleFan]

As for the "switch pitcher": It would be a solid idea if the person was good enough to really pull it off. If a pitcher was good enough to do that, wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate on one style of pitching? The idea here is that I would rather take the time and effort put into improving the "off side" and use it to improve the natural side so instead of being average on both sides one could be good to great on one side.


Point to ponder: When a switch hitter comes up does it lead to a long staredown?

[Logan]

That was brought up in the article Shorty posted.

A switch-pitcher facing a switch-hitter could make a fine Abbott and Costello routine. Against Nebraska last year, a switch-hitter came to the plate right-handed, prompting Venditte to switch to his right arm, which caused the batter to move to the left-hand batter’s box, with Venditte switching his arm again. Umpires ultimately restored order, applying the rule (the same as that in the majors) that a pitcher must declare which arm he will use before throwing his first pitch and cannot change before the at-bat ends.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Logan

That was brought up in the article Shorty posted.

So I'm supposed to read Shorty's posts now?

[Poli]

I tried running a dynasty thread using a 3/3/3 split on the pitching staff. Basically, I read about the concept in the late 80s. The article talked about how a former Braves manager nearly tried it years earlier and how he'd like to institute it in the minors for a trial if he ever had the opportunity.

The splits, which included 4 left handers to throw off platoon hitting (which in my opinion isn't used as much these days). One left pitching the middle 3 in the first game and the third game, the other two starting and finishing the 2nd game.

The manager nearly pulled it off in 1981 during the strike year but a pitcher balked at the idea of starting every 3 days and never having the opportunity to "win" a game...as wins would nearly always go to the 2nd or 3rd pitcher.

The concept also included 2 more relievers, preferably a lefty and a righty to help mop up or close out games. In today's game, you're likely to have that 12th reliever as well.

The main issues are pitcher egos in relation to wins and saves, double headers would also take a toll and ruin your two day rests, as well as finding competent players capable of giving you three innings of works every 3 days.

Now I'm late for work because I sat here explaining this.

[saldana]

little bit late to the thread, but Billy Wagner is actually right handed, and could pitch in the high 90s with his right arm until he broke it...during the time he couldnt use his arm, he taught himself to pitch lefty....dont know if he can still whip it from the right side or not, but it can be done.

[Young Drachma]

I think this is an interesting enough idea that I might try it with one of the crap teams in one of my dynasties right now. Especially for the salary saving implications, I think it might be interesting. I'd have to manage most of their games to make OOTP do it, but...it'd be interesting to see how the results would come out.

Overall, if you have a crap roster and are trying to maximize the efficiency of pitchers who might only be able to give you an inning or two of good work at a time, this might work. Especially with a team full of kids that don't know any better and probably don't belong in the majors.

[DaddyTorgo]

i like how this thread now includes both "switch-pitcher" and "3/3/3 rotation" talk

I think the main problem with the 3/3/3 rotation would of course be pitcher-ego IRL. Who's going to sign there knowing they wouldn't get a chance to get as many wins as a guy on another team when wins are such an important factor in determining future salary (although we all know how much BS that is, i don't foresee a day where a guy with a 5-5 record and a sub-1.0 WHIP makes less than a guy who is 10-0 with a 3.0 WHIP).

As far as lefty/righty pitchers, I think if you had someone that could do it it would be great as it would allow you to pitch them in more situations/innings. It's essentially like having 2 pitchers in one, with the added benefit of them being able to switch back-and-forth during an inning without having to burn a pitching change.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

I believe Tony LaRussa tried this (or something like it) back during his days with the A's. It didn't work out too well, as I recall, and he abandoned it pretty quickly.

Yup. He was so pissed at how poor his starting pitchers were that he instituted that type of rotation.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I think this is an interesting enough idea that I might try it with one of the crap teams in one of my dynasties right now. Especially for the salary saving implications, I think it might be interesting. I'd have to manage most of their games to make OOTP do it, but...it'd be interesting to see how the results would come out.

One of the problems with this is that you wouldn't have to deal with the primary hurdle in assembling such a rotation -- finding players that will sign with you knowing that this is what they'll be getting into. But definitely interesting from a strictly statistical perspective.