Why did millions protest?

Tarkus · 02-19-2003, 10:51 AM

Why do you think millions protested the potential war against Iraq? I have my own strong ideas on this subject which I will state later. I'm just wondering what others think. What were the real deep down reasons millions protested? What was the root cause?

Tarkus

John Galt · 02-19-2003, 10:54 AM

I protested because I think this war is dumb and will only lead to more killing and death (in the immediate and distant future).

rkmsuf · 02-19-2003, 10:55 AM

Basically because there's something to protest. You will always get those wanting to go the other way. I'll bet half those people are horribly uninformed as to the facts of the current conflict.

GrantDawg · 02-19-2003, 10:59 AM

Did you see the SNL skit on the anti-war protest? Classic.

Qwikshot · 02-19-2003, 11:01 AM

Yeah let's protest the war, let's reason with the Iraqis, I'm sure there's good people there, oh and religious fundamentalists, never a bad bone in their body, they all talk to God y'know...I believe that everyone has a right to protest the action of their country, but once the war effort actually becomes a war, I think we need to support our troops, hope that it's a quick war, and welcome them back...if we feel the war was unjust, rather than protest in the streets, get in the voting booth and vote someone else in...

detroit_fan · 02-19-2003, 11:04 AM

Millions? How did you come up with this information?

sachmo71 · 02-19-2003, 11:04 AM

I am personally against the war because I think our government is making a huge mistake. Yes, I know we can wipe the floor with their ass. Yes, I know they probably still have some chemical weapons that need to be captured. No, I don't agree that a massive invasion, occupation, and government overthrow is necessary. I think if we move troops into the locations where we believe these weapons to be, sieze these locations, and destroy the weapons, it will give us the results that we are looking for. Except for the overthrowing Sadaam part...but I won't get into that.

Flame away.

stkelly52 · 02-19-2003, 11:07 AM

People protest for all kinds of reasons. Most because they believe that war is to be avoided at all costs. They can not see that war actually saves lives.

AgPete · 02-19-2003, 11:14 AM

One thing I saw constantly in peace march coverage was some random protestor saying, "I don't like Hussein, I just think the U.S. should do something beside going to war!" Well genius, TELL US WHAT WE SHOULD DO! It's obvious weapons inspectors, economic sanctions and other non-violent options don't work. Maybe if they would spend their time designing some brilliant foreign policy option instead of holding hands and singing "koom bai ya my lord" the Iraqi problem could be solved.

I'm worried the invasion will spark anti-American factions like we've never seen before and make today's terrorists cells seem like nothing. I'm worried about the American troops that may have to fight through the streets of Baghdad. I'm worried about the stability of neighboring Islamic countries. (Can you imagine Pakistan with nukes and a rogue government?

) I'm worried about the Iraqi civilians Hussein will throw into the war. We saw how dedicated the Iraqi soldiers were in the last war. It's obvious they don't want to fight this madman's cause, they're only enlisted to avoid a bullet to the head.

I can see both sides of the argument. I don't know why Schwartzkopf and others are surprised that the U.S. has proof that Hussein still owns WMD. We know his psyche. I'd like to see more proof that Hussein is funding terrorist cells and providing them with WMD. I hope that the U.S. has proof of it and like they say, can't release it now because it will harm intelligence sources.

I guess this war comes down to two things. One, do you trust your government? Do you believe them when they say that have damning evidence they can't disclose? Do you think they've got their military planning right and will only invade if they can avoid a bloody urban fight? Two, do you think the means justify the end? Even without evidence, the U.S. seems to be convinced that Iraq is part of the "Axis of Evil" and will supply terrorists with the money and resources they need for further attacks on U.S. soil. Are we saving American lives in the future by putting them at risk now? And is the battle going to be bloodless enough and the anti-American terrorist cells we encourage after this going to be contained enough to defend our actions? Will more American die in this war and as a result of the anti-American terrorism it sparks or will more Americans die if we do nothing and let Hussein remain in charge of Iraq? I don't know the answer but I hope D.C. does.

I tell you what, if anyone looks ridiculous now it's Dubya's father. His administration's primary rebuttal when asked why he didn't invade Baghdad was because it would divide the temporary alliance. Well, we certainly don't care about that now. If it's just the U.S., Britain and Australia, so be it. Furthermore, Hussein made the critical error of sending most of his troops and defenses outside of Baghdad in the open sand where they were absolutely destroyed by superior American technology. They know better now and even with a much smaller army, know the only way to damage us is retreat into the city. I hope our military has a genius plan in mind to prevent that or knows something we don't as far as defectors and other military leaders ready to overthrow Hussein.

JonInMiddleGA · 02-19-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarkus
What was the root cause?

Just proof that it takes all kinds I guess.

Tarkus · 02-19-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by detroit_fan
Millions? How did you come up with this information?

Millions worlwide, it was on every major news network.

Tarkus

Maple Leafs · 02-19-2003, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarkus
Why do you think millions protested the potential war against Iraq? I have my own strong ideas on this subject which I will state later. I'm just wondering what others think. What were the real deep down reasons millions protested? What was the root cause?

Because they get a kick out of yelling and swearing in public? Because their parents got to have all sorts of fun protesting Vietnam, and they've been waiting their whole lives for their turn? Because nobody paid any attention to their protests about made-up issues like "gloabalization"?

detroit_fan · 02-19-2003, 11:20 AM

I think that millions protesting is over stated. There might be millions who are against the war, but only a fraction are actually protesting.

Tarkus · 02-19-2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by detroit_fan
I think that millions protesting is over stated. There might be millions who are against the war, but only a fraction are actually protesting.

The media overstate something? No way!

Tarkus

andy m · 02-19-2003, 12:42 PM

nice to see people belittling other people for believing in something and standing up for it.

there was a million protesters in london on saturday. that's a lot of people for a pretty small country.

JonInMiddleGA · 02-19-2003, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by andy m
there was a million protesters in london on saturday.

Lemme see here, England. Ah yes, the nation that produced the foreign relations giant Chamberlain I believe.

Given that fact, I'm not surprised there's some people there who just don't get it.

Happily, they aren't the ones in power.

rkmsuf · 02-19-2003, 12:47 PM

My beef is that I question what these "protesters" actually believe. Is it that it's cool to stand for peace outside of the reality of situations?

I keep seeing these people getting on a bus and going down to DC saying peace man...were all these people so hip and level headed in the aftermath of 9/11?

Fritz · 02-19-2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by andy m
nice to see people belittling other people for believing in something and standing up for it.

there was a million protesters in london on saturday. that's a lot of people for a pretty small country.

You guys really need some better TV.

AgPete · 02-19-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
You guys really need some better TV.

Hey, it's the country that spawned Mr. Bean. Can you blame them?

Senator · 02-19-2003, 01:07 PM

Because protesting has glamorized as a noble thing.. ie. I am a good person. I protested.

Craptacular · 02-19-2003, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
Because they get a kick out of yelling and swearing in public? Because their parents got to have all sorts of fun protesting Vietnam, and they've been waiting their whole lives for their turn? Because nobody paid any attention to their protests about made-up issues like "gloabalization"?

I heart Maple Leafs.

Dutch · 02-19-2003, 01:15 PM

The reason they protested was because they wanted to be on TV.

Ask these folks how much energy and effort he put into protesting Saddam Hussein who has so far been responsable for millions of deaths? None, why not, because before the US said, "No more time" there weren't enough people interested in other people's misery to be put on TV. And now that they "care" they are protesting against all those who have suffered so far! Unbelievable. A world protest against Saddam would have been a little harder for Iraq's internal propaganda machine to spin. But thanks to fine folks who protested, he's spouting out about how the world is for him!

Saddam Hussein has been in power since 1980 and has been at war for 9 of those years and under house arrest for not complying with his unconditional surrender he signed for 13. That's left him a grand total of 1 year or so of peace as a dictator out of 23 years as the head of state! What a guy, he's way worse than Bush! And if you fine folks had your way, Hussein would be killing and murdering long after Bush's time is up. Then who's fault would it be?

Peace.

JHandley · 02-19-2003, 01:19 PM

Am I the only one who thinks it's awful chickenshit to claim that your beliefs are solid and well founded, but that someone who disagrees with you must be high, stupid or both?

It's been pointed out that people are protesting because they are uniformed, doing it to piss off their parents and bored. What about the equal number of people who don't have a clue what the war is about but just wanna see shit blow up, just want the highlights of people being killed so they have something to watch when they eat their chicken pot pie for dinner?

What could possibly be more American than the right to express your own ideas? Isn't it exactly that right that people want to go to war for in the first place?

We are never going to all agree to the same opinion on war, but atleast give them the courtesy of listening to their answer when the question is asked.

rkmsuf · 02-19-2003, 01:21 PM

Who is not listening? I personally believe many of the protesters are frauds that's all.

Craptacular · 02-19-2003, 01:35 PM

Perhaps I'd give consideration to protestors if they didn't try to silence anyone who disagrees with them. Everyone has the right to free speech, unless we don't like yours.

JHandley · 02-19-2003, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rkmsuf
Who is not listening? I personally believe many of the protesters are frauds that's all.

Which is true, there's no denying that many of the protesters are protesting something they don't understand. My thing is, to ridicule the entire lot of them is an insult to the entire issue. I personally believe many of the pro-war people are doing it for one of two reasons: machismo or following popular opinion.

I would like to note that I am for the war in Iraq. I think the menu of options has been emptied, I think we need to fight to protect our way of life. I also don't like the idea that it's inherently wrong to go to war over oil. We live in a world that is run on oil and computers. We aren't the only nation in the world that has interests in Iraqi oil.

rkmsuf · 02-19-2003, 01:38 PM

Of course each side is entitled to their say and those calling the pro war supporters warmongers are every much as guilty of labeling a side as those calling the protesters frauds...

John Galt · 02-19-2003, 01:39 PM

I tried to respond reasonably and give a reason for protest. Of course, I must have been high, stupid, resolving issues with my parents, etc. Yes, it couldn't be that I actually believe this war is a bad idea. I can tell from some of the posts in this thread that it is the war protestors that are uninformed.

The war is a bad idea because:

1) It will kill Iraqis.

2) It will kill Americans.

3) It will increase sentiment against the American empire, causing more anger and bloodshed through "terrorism" in the future.

4) Saddam is substantially less threatening than numerous other leaders around the world. Countires like North Korea, Burma (Myanmar), Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan, and Israel (yes, Israel) are more significant violators of human rights, adventurist, and have weapons much more dangerous than Iraq.

People say, "what should we do?" I say, why do we need to do anything. Iraq has done nothing worse than 20 other countries (the U.S. included) in regards to international law. Its record of human rights is hardly the worst in the world. I think we should lift the sanctions and promote trade with the country. Humanitarian aid should be delivered and the people should be fed. The time for hate and blame is over. Until somebody draws a line in the sand and says the cycle is over, it never will be.

We are not on the playground anymore. It is time to grow up.

JHandley · 02-19-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craptacular
Perhaps I'd give consideration to protestors if they didn't try to silence anyone who disagrees with them. Everyone has the right to free speech, unless we don't like yours.

Dola,

Much like the pro-war people try to silence the protestors?

There's morons on both sides of this issue, my hope is that instead of catering to the lowest common denominator, a good debate could come from this topic.

Abe Sargent · 02-19-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
I protested because I think this war is dumb and will only lead to more killing and death (in the immediate and distant future).

And what war, exaclty, is that not true of? What war does not lead to killing and death? As much as I would love war that leads to love and flowers, I think that's outside the concept of war.

-Anxiety

rkmsuf · 02-19-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

4) Saddam is substantially less threatening than numerous other leaders around the world. Countires like North Korea, Burma (Myanmar), Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan, and Israel (yes, Israel) are more significant violators of human rights, adventurist, and have weapons much more dangerous than Iraq.

I don't believe the core of the issues revolve around human rights issues.

You can say killing is wrong all you want but look at history. We don't live in a perfect world...if we applied this concept to oh say the American Revolution you'd be having tea about now...apply it to WW and you'd be dining on salted cured meats...

Craptacular · 02-19-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JHandley
my hope is that instead of catering to the lowest common denominator, a good debate could come from this topic.

Debate is a good thing. Unfortunately, from most of my experiences with protestors, they're much more interested in a pissing match than a debate. They whine about their rights to free speech, and then attempt to strip those same rights from the opposing side. Both sides are always full of idiots. Unfortunately, it only takes a couple to take what could be a useful debate and turn in into nothing more than a publicity stunt.

Bee · 02-19-2003, 01:51 PM

Quote:

It's been pointed out that people are protesting because they are uniformed, doing it to piss off their parents and bored.

You forgot peer pressure. I know a couple people that went out to protest because they were "supporting a friend" who was strongly anti-war. When asked, they didn't really have their own opinion about the whole thing but were following another's lead. I'm sure they weren't an isolated case.

Maple Leafs · 02-19-2003, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JHandley
Am I the only one who thinks it's awful chickenshit to claim that your beliefs are solid and well founded, but that someone who disagrees with you must be high, stupid or both?

I would actually agree with you, and to some extent my post was a troll in that regard. However, I think you need to apply your statement equally to those protestors who make ridiculous statements like "Bush is a terrorist", etc. Both sides of this debate (and most political debates, at least in the US) could do with a few lessons in respect.

John Galt · 02-19-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

You can say killing is wrong all you want but look at history. We don't live in a perfect world...if we applied this concept to oh say the American Revolution you'd be having tea about now...apply it to WW and you'd be dining on salted cured meats...

I never defended a non-violent ethic. I just recognize that killing should be a last alternative and that it usually breeds hate and resentment (causing more killing in the long run). There are times to act with violence(like when British forces dominated the U.S. and abused its people or when Germany threatened to exterminate large groups of people during WWII), but those situations are far removed from the present situation and anyone who thinks Saddam is Hitler needs to learn about imperialism and empires.

astralhaze · 02-19-2003, 02:07 PM

Ummmmm....because they are against the war? Is that so hard to conceive of? Jesus. All this pop psychology when the answer is obvious and staring you in the face. I realize that most of you on this board are conservatives and it is hard for you to imagine that anyone could be against the war, but come on. Just because you have no doubts the war is right does not mean that others do not feel differently for perfectly sound reasons.

rkmsuf · 02-19-2003, 02:08 PM

All I can say is that if the weapons that are available now were available in previous wars it would have been a whole different outcome for us and the world.

If we can prevent an outcome that is all too probable and to some extent has already happened(9/11) I believe our actions are justified.

We've spent the better part of 10 yrs trying to diplomatically solve the issue of Iraq and terrorism...it got us the rubble of the Twin Towers...

Schmidty · 02-19-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
4) Saddam is substantially less threatening than numerous other leaders around the world.

Tell that to all of the people he is murdering and torturing on a daily basis.

Tarkus · 02-19-2003, 02:22 PM

Okay, interesting discussion so far. Let me add my two cents and then we can really get the ball rolling. I truly believe the reasons so many people protested worldwide are fairly straightforward. Lets begin with those outside the US. There are basically three major reasons these people protested against a potential war in Iraq. They hate America, they hate George Bush, and they hate Americans (including those that protested along with them). Throw in the fact that most of these people have no idea what type of person we have in Saddam Hussein, and the atrocities of which he is capable, and you can see why the protest drew such a large crowds. I think Iraq is irrelevant to a large portion of the protesters; we could have been threatening war against anyone and the response would have been the same.

So now we have to ask the more serious question as to why these people hate America, Bush, and Americans. Again, I feel the answer is straightforward. I'm sure many will disagree, but the reason for all this hatred, particularly in France and Germany, is anti-Semitism. Basically these people hate Jews. And through their hatred of Jews they hate Israel. Now who's Israel's best friend and closest ally? Why the good old United States of America. Therefore, they hate America, George Bush, and Americans all who in their eyes support Israel.

And if you think there isn't anti-Semitism in the US you're living in a dream world. It's not as blatant as it is in other countries but it's here. Fortunately for Jews here and elsewhere, they have a great friend in George Bush. Otherwise they'd be listening to those great orators of our day like Susan Sarandon, and no one would be in favor of ousting Saddam.

So take all the anti-Semites (a huge group), communists, socialists, peaceniks left over from the 60's, and throw in those that just think it's cool or somehow moral to protest war, and you've got your huge protest.

Now, this post is not replying to anyone on this board, nor is it an attempt to claim there aren't those that might have just and moral reasons for being against the war. I just think that for the vast majority of protesters, particularly worldwide, the reasons I've provided go a long way in explaining their actions.

Finally, if you think this movement against Iraq is solely motivated by Saddam I believe that's a mistake. This movement against Iraq is about 9/11. It's about getting rid of those lunatics that potentially threaten our nation, or could provide valuable resources do those that do. It's about terror and terrorism. You want to keep looking over your shoulder at shady people, then keep marching. Otherwise, support your country in it's effort to rid the world of these potential threats to humanity.

Tarkus

clintl · 02-19-2003, 02:22 PM

Millions of people protested against the war because they are against it. It's that simple. They don't all have the same reasons for opposing it or the same level of commitment, but nobody should expect them to.

Tarkus · 02-19-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clintl
Millions of people protested against the war because they are against it. It's that simple. They don't all have the same reasons for opposing it or the same level of commitment, but nobody should expect them to.

Oh, I thought they protested because they were in favor.

Tarkus

John Galt · 02-19-2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Tell that to all of the people he is murdering and torturing on a daily basis.

At least try to answer my argument. I identified several countries that have worse human rights situations than Iraq. Burma, North Korea, Sudan, Somalia, and Indonesia are just a few. Don't pretend that this war has anything to do with human rights. And don't exaggerate - there is no evidence that murders and torture occur on a daily basis - Iraq does commit human rights violations on a wide scale, but this is a slight overstatement.

Maple Leafs · 02-19-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
At least try to answer my argument. I identified several countries that have worse human rights situations than Iraq. Burma, North Korea, Sudan, Somalia, and Indonesia are just a few.

Which, if any, of those situations do you think warrants the use of force?

Schmidty · 02-19-2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
Don't pretend that this war has anything to do with human rights.

What does it matter? Is the motive of pharmacy companies actually to save lives? No. Do they save lives? Yes. Does a sick person not take their meds because they're wary of the companies and doctors that provides that medicine? Come on.

If, in the long run, an entire country is liberated from a murderous madman, does it matter what the motives are? No.

rkmsuf · 02-19-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

What does it matter? Is the motive of pharmacy companies actually to save lives? No. Do they save lives? Yes. Does a sick person not take their meds because they're wary of the companies and doctors that provides that medicine? Come on.

I'd say if we lose lives as a result of the war the motive is ultra important since the implications of pursing Iraq due to humanitarian issues would necessitate action against many, many countries...

SplitPersonality1 · 02-19-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craptacular
I heart Maple Leafs.

Come now Crappie. You have to support the protesters. After all, you live in the People's Republic of Madison.

Ksyrup · 02-19-2003, 02:43 PM

My only problem with the protestors is with those who think war should be avoided at all costs. That's a fine and noble belief, but it is not rooted in reality. I'm not saying that this particular war is the right war to start, but for those people, that issue is irrelevant anyway.

Saddam could personally ride a nuke into their living rooms, and they would still want to try to come up with a peaceful solution. That's insane, and I do not want my family's safety compromised just so a certain segment of the population can have a clear conscience when they die in another terrorist attack on our nation - that, ironically, will have succeeded largely due to their anti-war efforts.

Natgonnadoit.

John Galt · 02-19-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Which, if any, of those situations do you think warrants the use of force?

That is a reasonable question. In the short term, I believe none of them justify force (and force would be unwise to use in most of them as well). I think we need to lift sanctions against Burma, Indonesia, and North Korea before anything else. I'm a believer that economic and cultural exchange facilitates development and diminishes aggression toward the United States. Sanctions tend to make us feel better, but never accomplish anything good.

Ask yourselves, why do we talk about invading Iraq and not China? The answer I believe is, "because we can." And that is not a good basis for foreign policy.

rkmsuf · 02-19-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Ask yourselves, why do we talk about invading Iraq and not China? The answer I believe is, "because we can." And that is not a good basis for foreign policy.

Do you not believe we've done due diligence in Iraq to aviod conflict?

Tarkus · 02-19-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
Ask yourselves, why do we talk about invading Iraq and not China? The answer I believe is, "because we can." And that is not a good basis for foreign policy.

No, the answer is because Iraq has and is developing weapons of mass destruction that they will one day either threaten us with or give to those that will. It's not about human rights violations within a particular country at this point.

Tarkus

02-19-2003, 10:54 AM	#2
John Galt Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Internets	I protested because I think this war is dumb and will only lead to more killing and death (in the immediate and distant future). __________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

02-19-2003, 10:55 AM	#3
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Basically because there's something to protest. You will always get those wanting to go the other way. I'll bet half those people are horribly uninformed as to the facts of the current conflict. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

02-19-2003, 11:01 AM	#5
Qwikshot Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ...down the gravity well	Yeah let's protest the war, let's reason with the Iraqis, I'm sure there's good people there, oh and religious fundamentalists, never a bad bone in their body, they all talk to God y'know...I believe that everyone has a right to protest the action of their country, but once the war effort actually becomes a war, I think we need to support our troops, hope that it's a quick war, and welcome them back...if we feel the war was unjust, rather than protest in the streets, get in the voting booth and vote someone else in... __________________ "General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams

02-19-2003, 11:04 AM	#6
detroit_fan H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fayetteville, AR	Millions? How did you come up with this information? __________________ heck is where people who don't believe in gosh go.

02-19-2003, 11:07 AM	#8
stkelly52 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Seattle WA	People protest for all kinds of reasons. Most because they believe that war is to be avoided at all costs. They can not see that war actually saves lives. __________________ Check out an undrafted free agent's attempt to make the Hall of Fame: Running to the Hall Now nominated for a Golden Scribe!

02-19-2003, 10:59 AM	#4
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	Did you see the SNL skit on the anti-war protest? Classic.

02-19-2003, 11:04 AM	#7
sachmo71 The boy who cried Trout Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: TX	I am personally against the war because I think our government is making a huge mistake. Yes, I know we can wipe the floor with their ass. Yes, I know they probably still have some chemical weapons that need to be captured. No, I don't agree that a massive invasion, occupation, and government overthrow is necessary. I think if we move troops into the locations where we believe these weapons to be, sieze these locations, and destroy the weapons, it will give us the results that we are looking for. Except for the overthrowing Sadaam part...but I won't get into that. Flame away.

02-19-2003, 11:14 AM	#9
AgPete College Prospect Join Date: Jan 2001	One thing I saw constantly in peace march coverage was some random protestor saying, "I don't like Hussein, I just think the U.S. should do something beside going to war!" Well genius, TELL US WHAT WE SHOULD DO! It's obvious weapons inspectors, economic sanctions and other non-violent options don't work. Maybe if they would spend their time designing some brilliant foreign policy option instead of holding hands and singing "koom bai ya my lord" the Iraqi problem could be solved. I'm worried the invasion will spark anti-American factions like we've never seen before and make today's terrorists cells seem like nothing. I'm worried about the American troops that may have to fight through the streets of Baghdad. I'm worried about the stability of neighboring Islamic countries. (Can you imagine Pakistan with nukes and a rogue government? ) I'm worried about the Iraqi civilians Hussein will throw into the war. We saw how dedicated the Iraqi soldiers were in the last war. It's obvious they don't want to fight this madman's cause, they're only enlisted to avoid a bullet to the head. I can see both sides of the argument. I don't know why Schwartzkopf and others are surprised that the U.S. has proof that Hussein still owns WMD. We know his psyche. I'd like to see more proof that Hussein is funding terrorist cells and providing them with WMD. I hope that the U.S. has proof of it and like they say, can't release it now because it will harm intelligence sources. I guess this war comes down to two things. One, do you trust your government? Do you believe them when they say that have damning evidence they can't disclose? Do you think they've got their military planning right and will only invade if they can avoid a bloody urban fight? Two, do you think the means justify the end? Even without evidence, the U.S. seems to be convinced that Iraq is part of the "Axis of Evil" and will supply terrorists with the money and resources they need for further attacks on U.S. soil. Are we saving American lives in the future by putting them at risk now? And is the battle going to be bloodless enough and the anti-American terrorist cells we encourage after this going to be contained enough to defend our actions? Will more American die in this war and as a result of the anti-American terrorism it sparks or will more Americans die if we do nothing and let Hussein remain in charge of Iraq? I don't know the answer but I hope D.C. does. I tell you what, if anyone looks ridiculous now it's Dubya's father. His administration's primary rebuttal when asked why he didn't invade Baghdad was because it would divide the temporary alliance. Well, we certainly don't care about that now. If it's just the U.S., Britain and Australia, so be it. Furthermore, Hussein made the critical error of sending most of his troops and defenses outside of Baghdad in the open sand where they were absolutely destroyed by superior American technology. They know better now and even with a much smaller army, know the only way to damage us is retreat into the city. I hope our military has a genius plan in mind to prevent that or knows something we don't as far as defectors and other military leaders ready to overthrow Hussein. __________________ Click here for the FOF2004 World Football League Dynasty (WFL) - Football Goes Global! OOTP5 Psychology Experiment (Incomplete but fun read for MLB fans.) The FOFC All-Time NFL Team - Voted on by FOFC members. Last edited by AgPete : 02-19-2003 at 11:16 AM.

02-19-2003, 11:20 AM	#13
detroit_fan H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fayetteville, AR	I think that millions protesting is over stated. There might be millions who are against the war, but only a fraction are actually protesting. __________________ heck is where people who don't believe in gosh go.

02-19-2003, 12:42 PM	#15
andy m High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: norwich, UK	nice to see people belittling other people for believing in something and standing up for it. there was a million protesters in london on saturday. that's a lot of people for a pretty small country. __________________ mostly harmless FOFL 2009 champs - Norwich Quagmire

02-19-2003, 12:47 PM	#17
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	My beef is that I question what these "protesters" actually believe. Is it that it's cool to stand for peace outside of the reality of situations? I keep seeing these people getting on a bus and going down to DC saying peace man...were all these people so hip and level headed in the aftermath of 9/11? __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales Last edited by rkmsuf : 02-19-2003 at 12:47 PM.

02-19-2003, 01:07 PM	#20
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	Because protesting has glamorized as a noble thing.. ie. I am a good person. I protested. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

02-19-2003, 01:15 PM	#22
Dutch "Dutch" Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	The reason they protested was because they wanted to be on TV. Ask these folks how much energy and effort he put into protesting Saddam Hussein who has so far been responsable for millions of deaths? None, why not, because before the US said, "No more time" there weren't enough people interested in other people's misery to be put on TV. And now that they "care" they are protesting against all those who have suffered so far! Unbelievable. A world protest against Saddam would have been a little harder for Iraq's internal propaganda machine to spin. But thanks to fine folks who protested, he's spouting out about how the world is for him! Saddam Hussein has been in power since 1980 and has been at war for 9 of those years and under house arrest for not complying with his unconditional surrender he signed for 13. That's left him a grand total of 1 year or so of peace as a dictator out of 23 years as the head of state! What a guy, he's way worse than Bush! And if you fine folks had your way, Hussein would be killing and murdering long after Bush's time is up. Then who's fault would it be? Peace.

02-19-2003, 01:19 PM	#23
JHandley High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle	Am I the only one who thinks it's awful chickenshit to claim that your beliefs are solid and well founded, but that someone who disagrees with you must be high, stupid or both? It's been pointed out that people are protesting because they are uniformed, doing it to piss off their parents and bored. What about the equal number of people who don't have a clue what the war is about but just wanna see shit blow up, just want the highlights of people being killed so they have something to watch when they eat their chicken pot pie for dinner? What could possibly be more American than the right to express your own ideas? Isn't it exactly that right that people want to go to war for in the first place? We are never going to all agree to the same opinion on war, but atleast give them the courtesy of listening to their answer when the question is asked.

02-19-2003, 01:21 PM	#24
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Who is not listening? I personally believe many of the protesters are frauds that's all. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

02-19-2003, 01:35 PM	#25
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	Perhaps I'd give consideration to protestors if they didn't try to silence anyone who disagrees with them. Everyone has the right to free speech, unless we don't like yours.

02-19-2003, 01:38 PM	#27
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Of course each side is entitled to their say and those calling the pro war supporters warmongers are every much as guilty of labeling a side as those calling the protesters frauds... __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

02-19-2003, 01:39 PM	#28
John Galt Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Internets	I tried to respond reasonably and give a reason for protest. Of course, I must have been high, stupid, resolving issues with my parents, etc. Yes, it couldn't be that I actually believe this war is a bad idea. I can tell from some of the posts in this thread that it is the war protestors that are uninformed. The war is a bad idea because: 1) It will kill Iraqis. 2) It will kill Americans. 3) It will increase sentiment against the American empire, causing more anger and bloodshed through "terrorism" in the future. 4) Saddam is substantially less threatening than numerous other leaders around the world. Countires like North Korea, Burma (Myanmar), Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan, and Israel (yes, Israel) are more significant violators of human rights, adventurist, and have weapons much more dangerous than Iraq. People say, "what should we do?" I say, why do we need to do anything. Iraq has done nothing worse than 20 other countries (the U.S. included) in regards to international law. Its record of human rights is hardly the worst in the world. I think we should lift the sanctions and promote trade with the country. Humanitarian aid should be delivered and the people should be fed. The time for hate and blame is over. Until somebody draws a line in the sand and says the cycle is over, it never will be. We are not on the playground anymore. It is time to grow up. __________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

02-19-2003, 02:07 PM	#36
astralhaze College Prospect Join Date: Dec 2002	Ummmmm....because they are against the war? Is that so hard to conceive of? Jesus. All this pop psychology when the answer is obvious and staring you in the face. I realize that most of you on this board are conservatives and it is hard for you to imagine that anyone could be against the war, but come on. Just because you have no doubts the war is right does not mean that others do not feel differently for perfectly sound reasons. __________________ I can understand Brutus at every meaning, but that parahraphy threw me for a loop.

02-19-2003, 02:08 PM	#37
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	All I can say is that if the weapons that are available now were available in previous wars it would have been a whole different outcome for us and the world. If we can prevent an outcome that is all too probable and to some extent has already happened(9/11) I believe our actions are justified. We've spent the better part of 10 yrs trying to diplomatically solve the issue of Iraq and terrorism...it got us the rubble of the Twin Towers... __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales Last edited by rkmsuf : 02-19-2003 at 02:31 PM.

02-19-2003, 02:22 PM	#39
Tarkus High School Varsity Join Date: Jun 2001	Okay, interesting discussion so far. Let me add my two cents and then we can really get the ball rolling. I truly believe the reasons so many people protested worldwide are fairly straightforward. Lets begin with those outside the US. There are basically three major reasons these people protested against a potential war in Iraq. They hate America, they hate George Bush, and they hate Americans (including those that protested along with them). Throw in the fact that most of these people have no idea what type of person we have in Saddam Hussein, and the atrocities of which he is capable, and you can see why the protest drew such a large crowds. I think Iraq is irrelevant to a large portion of the protesters; we could have been threatening war against anyone and the response would have been the same. So now we have to ask the more serious question as to why these people hate America, Bush, and Americans. Again, I feel the answer is straightforward. I'm sure many will disagree, but the reason for all this hatred, particularly in France and Germany, is anti-Semitism. Basically these people hate Jews. And through their hatred of Jews they hate Israel. Now who's Israel's best friend and closest ally? Why the good old United States of America. Therefore, they hate America, George Bush, and Americans all who in their eyes support Israel. And if you think there isn't anti-Semitism in the US you're living in a dream world. It's not as blatant as it is in other countries but it's here. Fortunately for Jews here and elsewhere, they have a great friend in George Bush. Otherwise they'd be listening to those great orators of our day like Susan Sarandon, and no one would be in favor of ousting Saddam. So take all the anti-Semites (a huge group), communists, socialists, peaceniks left over from the 60's, and throw in those that just think it's cool or somehow moral to protest war, and you've got your huge protest. Now, this post is not replying to anyone on this board, nor is it an attempt to claim there aren't those that might have just and moral reasons for being against the war. I just think that for the vast majority of protesters, particularly worldwide, the reasons I've provided go a long way in explaining their actions. Finally, if you think this movement against Iraq is solely motivated by Saddam I believe that's a mistake. This movement against Iraq is about 9/11. It's about getting rid of those lunatics that potentially threaten our nation, or could provide valuable resources do those that do. It's about terror and terrorism. You want to keep looking over your shoulder at shady people, then keep marching. Otherwise, support your country in it's effort to rid the world of these potential threats to humanity. Tarkus Last edited by Tarkus : 02-19-2003 at 02:23 PM.

02-19-2003, 02:22 PM	#40
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	Millions of people protested against the war because they are against it. It's that simple. They don't all have the same reasons for opposing it or the same level of commitment, but nobody should expect them to.

02-19-2003, 02:43 PM	#47
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	My only problem with the protestors is with those who think war should be avoided at all costs. That's a fine and noble belief, but it is not rooted in reality. I'm not saying that this particular war is the right war to start, but for those people, that issue is irrelevant anyway. Saddam could personally ride a nuke into their living rooms, and they would still want to try to come up with a peaceful solution. That's insane, and I do not want my family's safety compromised just so a certain segment of the population can have a clear conscience when they die in another terrorist attack on our nation - that, ironically, will have succeeded largely due to their anti-war efforts. Natgonnadoit. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

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