To Marc Vaughan and Marc Duffy (or any other SI folks reading)

[SirFozzie]

The Thread in Which Foz comes not to Praise SIGames but to bury them.

Ok, this thread doesn't really give me much pleasure to write (most folks here know I'm the ultimate FM/WWSM fanboy on these boards), but it needs to be said. We're lucky that folks from SI Games have made the effort to talk to us about their games. Sure, there's been conflicts and bad feelings between some posters and SI, but that's not what I have to say right now.

It's time to make a decision, folks at SI. To put it in the bluntest possible terms, it's time to shit or get off the pot.

The USA market, which is the dream market for SI, since even a very small slice of US population buying their games would provide a huge boost to their sales #, has been treated like a second class citizen, it seems.

It's probably a question of manpower and where you need to focus your effort, I agree, but let's take a look at the last year, just focusing on FM2007, which is the flagship title in SI Games's arsenal (OOTP/EHM is another whole article altogether).

FM2006 comes out in England/Europe. Folks in the US get asked for one year, instead of importing FM2006, to wait for WWSM2006 to come out here in the states. If I remember correctly, the delay between FM2006/WWSM2006 was something like 10 weeks. NOT acceptable. It's like you're punishing the early adopters for trying to help you.

The digital download version required seperate patches then the main game, and due to hold ups (agreed with the digital download company, and the reason why they're not used in FM2007), there is a difference of WEEKS between the patch coming out for the boxed set and the digital download patch. Even worse, the Hyperthreading option for digital download versions NEVER work properly. Not Acceptable.

We get told that things will change in FM2007.

We are getting close to three full weeks since the FM2007 release overseas. No one knows when and where WWSM will come out in the states (apparently being sold just through Amazon?). The date has been delayed once through amazon, and I'm not holding my breath that today's release date will hold firm.

Even worse, the major reason a lot of USA folks will buy the game, our own national league, MLS, is pretty much unplayable because of a crash/hang that happens with trades in MLS. With the US release supposedly today, you're going to get folks playing the game, craashing 5 minutes in, and thinking the game's broken, put it away, or worse, send it back. The game is otherwise great, but it's a huge fly in the soup right now.

We're not asking for special treatment. Right now, it's understood we're just a minority compared to the large, rabid fanbase in Europe and South America.

However, you have to decide if you want to try to grow the US market. Either you're in, or you're out. Half measures won't grow your US base.. the hardcores will just import the game as normal, and the casuals will just tune you out, and not come back.

Edit: (fixed Marc V's last name, sorry)

[Joe Canadian]

Hasn't it been standard operating procedure for North Americans to buy the game via Amazon.co.uk, or another European site if they wanted the game near release date?

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Hasn't it been standard operating procedure for North Americans to buy the game via Amazon.co.uk, or another European site if they wanted the game near release date?

Last year, they made a special request to us to buy the game through the US, rather than importing the game through amazon or other UK retailers.

[cougarfreak]

You are surprised with how this was done, after how it was done last year? How about that ootp release from this year? They took the national pastime, and made it so you could play in any nation in the world, but the national pastime was a debacle.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Last year, they made a special request to us to buy the game through the US, rather than importing the game through amazon or other UK retailers.

Why?

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Even worse, the major reason a lot of USA folks will buy the game, our own national league, MLS, is pretty much unplayable because of a crash/hang that happens with trades in MLS.

I'm curious as to how many American FM players actually use the MLS. I know I never have.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

You are surprised with how this was done, after how it was done last year? How about that ootp release from this year? They took the national pastime, and made it so you could play in any nation in the world, but the national pastime was a debacle.

I consider OOTP an over reach, but the game is now pretty good (after a long road), and hopefully a lesson learned. I was focusing on FM/WWSM, as I said, a whole another article could be written with the OOTP/EHM things.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Why?

So they could judge the level of US Sales, and use that in going forward when negotiating with publishers etcetera

[path12]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

I'm curious as to how many American FM players actually use the MLS. I know I never have.

Neither have I.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

So they could judge the level of US Sales, and use that in going forward when negotiating with publishers etcetera

So it's fair to assume that those US sales were not very high and therefore not worth risking the UK/Europe release in order to get the US version out on the same day?

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

So they could judge the level of US Sales, and use that in going forward when negotiating with publishers etcetera

I'm not sure why anyone would listen to this, if their first priority was getting the game ASAP.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Critch

So it's fair to assume that those US sales were not very high and therefore not worth risking the UK/Europe release in order to get the US version out on the same day?

SI has staggered their releases worldwide in the past, but never to the level of what the US release gets.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I'm not sure why anyone would listen to this, if their first priority was getting the game ASAP.

Basically, it was saying "if we can show there's a strong US interest, we can put more resources towards US Fans requests"

[bulletsponge]

im waiting for the patches to start coming out before i get the game

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Basically, it was saying "if we can show there's a strong US interest, we can put more resources towards US Fans requests"

I guess I don't understand why that was needed. You could easily buy the game from a European retailer, was it that important for them to convince US retailers to carry it earlier than they have?

[highfiveoh]

FYI, it's Marc Vaughan.

[highfiveoh]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

The USA market, which is the dream market for SI, since even a very small slice of US population buying their games would provide a huge boost to their sales #

Not sure how much of this holds true in regards to FM.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by highfiveoh

Not sure how much of this holds true in regards to FM.

I'm not even sure how much of it holds true for the whole genre of sports sims... North Americans are much more interested in fancy graphics then statistical accuracy and accurate finances.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I'm not even sure how much of it holds true for the whole genre of sports sims... North Americans are much more interested in fancy graphics then statistical accuracy and accurate finances.

not the americans in this forum!

[BigDPW]

Fozzie,
I echo your sentiments. I had a similar post over at SI Forums. I have alot of respect for Marc Vaughan as he has always been a big help here at FOFC. They have an excellent product with FM/WWSM and I want to be playing it now. I don't think I will wait for a US release in the future and simply order from the UK from now on.

I wish they would tell us more about what is going on and what to expect. Personally I think that the DD version is being held back until Amazon can ship their copies. That way their Amazon sales may look better when they turn around and try to convince more retailers to carry it in the future. I even understand that logic and could accept that.

I remember back in the day waiting for weeks to get the game from the UK and paying like $70 bucks for it. At least now we have reasonable prices even from the UK (about $45-$50).

[JonInMiddleGA]

We get told that things will change in FM2007.

Well, believing that would probably have been your first mistake Foz.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well, believing that would probably have been your first mistake Foz.

It's just my trusting, honest nature, huh Jon? (well, that and I personally like the guys, I know you have..er.. conflicts with them)

As I said: I tend to give folks the benefits of the doubt, and if it turns out I have to import FM for a while longer till they can give the US release an honet go, so be it. But this half-assed effort is just not doing them any favors.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

It's just my trusting, honest nature, huh Jon? (well, that and I personally like the guys, I know you have..er.. conflicts with them)

It really did seem pretty obvious to me that the odds were against your hopes being rewarded.

Aside from that, (and just FTR) I still hold Marc Vaughn in pretty high regard.

He probably ain't perfect but I get the feeling he consistently truly tries hard to do the right thing (and makes a conscious effort not to do the wrong thing).

[Marc Duffy]

This is the current situation

Someone on our boards gave a release date for WSM 'digital' when really they shouldn't have.

We've been trying to integrate Elicense into the game, up till yesterday with no success. We've fixed it, we've rolled a version this evening to the US and I'm confident there will be some movement this week.

My personal policy, and one shared in our office, is to not give release dates so apologies for one coming out that is incorrect.

As for the staggered release, it's not that intentional but this year has been particularly tough with the delivery of multi SKUs on multi platforms for multi games.

This coming two weeks should see some major progress.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by BigDPW

Fozzie,
I echo your sentiments. I had a similar post over at SI Forums. I have alot of respect for Marc Vaughan as he has always been a big help here at FOFC. They have an excellent product with FM/WWSM and I want to be playing it now. I don't think I will wait for a US release in the future and simply order from the UK from now on.

I wish they would tell us more about what is going on and what to expect. Personally I think that the DD version is being held back until Amazon can ship their copies. That way their Amazon sales may look better when they turn around and try to convince more retailers to carry it in the future. I even understand that logic and could accept that.

I remember back in the day waiting for weeks to get the game from the UK and paying like $70 bucks for it. At least now we have reasonable prices even from the UK (about $45-$50).

I can assure you that is not the case. We want the game out digitally as much (if not more than you) and our dev team have been working closely with Elicense on an issue concerning their wrapping technology and unicode.

We believe it's fixed now.

[SirFozzie]

So, basically Marc, the date Amazon has is incorrect, and it's going to be at least a couple weeks before we see anything with regards to WWSM, at least hardcopy?

Just want to make sure there are no misunderstandings.

[Marc Duffy]

I'm talking digital here.

Amazon would be boxed product that has gone already.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I'm talking digital here.

Amazon would be boxed product that has gone already.

Thanks Marc. Once I read the message twice, I realized I screwed up. Thanks.

[Fouts]

I'm still waiting for the digital download. Now that the hype has passed, I'm not even sure I'll buy this year's version. I hope they eventually get it right with simultaneous releases (cd and digitial download) to every market.

[Marc Duffy]

Fouts : Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

I've updated with this news in the relevant thread on the SI forums incase anyone is interested.

[SirFozzie]

Thanks, Marc, and fair play to you to come out in the middle of the night just to update us.

[BigDPW]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

This is the current situation

Someone on our boards gave a release date for WSM 'digital' when really they shouldn't have.

FWIW the release date posted on your board for a very longtime (about 2 weeks) and in a very popular thread that was stickied to the top of the board (Title = FM2007 release dates update).

That really shouldn't have been out there for so long and been allowed to "look offical" like that. The information regarding the US released date/dates was not even updated until late last week if memory serves me correctly?

I appreciate your responses tonight both here and at SI. Just let me get on with my game!!!

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

not the americans in this forum!

Did you even bother to read what I posted, or what I was replying to? We were talking about the overall US market, not the FOFC board...

[DaddyTorgo]

well I went ahead and ordered from gameplay on Sunday and it shipped today. I just got fed up with waiting for the US release to evaporate, as much as I want to support SI's entrance into the US market. In the future I'll be back to pre-ordering from gameplay UK again until there is a track-record of the US release being handled in a timely manner. I'm not FURIOUS as there still isn't a patch to fix the first round of bugs, and I wouldn't be digging into a serious career until that patch came out anyways, but it is frustrating that I have missed out on going on 3 weeks worth of playing the game (even casually) which I wait eagerly for every year.

[Desnudo]

What I want to know is why stores close so early in Dublin? I went by Game yesterday at 6:30 PM and Game was already closed. :P HMV had sold the last copy a half hour earlier. You'll be happy to know that plenty of copies of CM were still available.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

What I want to know is why stores close so early in Dublin? I went by Game yesterday at 6:30 PM and Game was already closed.

Probably a labor shortage. I know if I had access to Dublin's pubs every night, no employer could ever convince me to work an evening shift.

[KeyserSoze]

In Europe most of the games made by americans or japaneses came with big delays or never (for example Madden 07 for PC in Spain). People focused first in his main market and then, then they go to the others.

In the other hand, I love FM games, but I don't play them until 2-3 months from the release. These kind of games improve a lot with the first patches and the fan "things" (facepacks, skins), so I believe the waiting worth while.

[BigDPW]

Any updates about the Digital Download version? Last I heard the unicode thing was worked out and it was a matter of time? Any new snags or do you still expect it out this week?

[BigDPW]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

This is the current situation

We've been trying to integrate Elicense into the game, up till yesterday with no success. We've fixed it, we've rolled a version this evening to the US and I'm confident there will be some movement this week.

Any idea if the DD will release today or should we expect it next week?

[Marc Duffy]

It'll be next week minimum

[BigDPW]

Thanks for the reply... Was really hoping for today...

[PSUColonel]

Where can FM/WWSM be downloaded for purchase?

[SirFozzie]

From the SI website, it has been available for a few weeks, sometime later today I'll try to get you a link to the DD release

[PSUColonel]

Do you know how long it takes? Is it better to just order the CD? Also, is there any difference between FM and WWSM?

[SirFozzie]

There's little if any difference between FM/WWSM (a third party editor will not work on WWSM instead of FM, and a different splash screen.

SI Games website has been slow lately, but unless you're on dial up, it'll take less time then waiting for a CD (especially during the holidays.)

Edit: Try this: (this is from the FM2007 impressions thread)

WSM 2007 digital download version:

http://www.americansportsgamer.com/d...07elicense.exe

You'll need the patch too (the link above is the 7.0.0 version)

Here's that mirror again: http://files.filefront.com/WSM_701_U.../fileinfo.html

[PSUColonel]

I am on the website, but I'm not seeing where the e-download option is.

[SirFozzie]

it's the try and buy, when you download it, install it, and run it, it should give you the option to buy it online

[Desnudo]

Just stamp the UK version of the CD and sell it over here with the same title. People will figure out the damn thing isn't about American Football when they see the soccer player on the front cover.

[Toddzilla]

FWIW, the digital download version was a breeze for me to download and, but the FileFront link to the patch for me was a dead end. I actually grabbed the patch from the mirrored link on the SI Games website, which was also a breeze to download and install. So far so good. YMMV.

/go Blue Toon!

[MikeVick7]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I am on the website, but I'm not seeing where the e-download option is.

Just in case you were still looking for it...

http://www.sigames.com/downloads.php?type=view&id=374