Response to PM's

[Ben E Lou]

A few of you sent me PM's earlier today. Since my response to all of you is basically the same, I figured I'd post here, rather than copying and pasting it in each PM.

1. I moved them because the #1 complaint I've received is about Werewolf, and now that we've upgraded to vbulletin 3.6.0, it is *very* easy to mass-move threads after doing a search.

2. To be honest, the question isn't as much, "why did you do this", but "why haven't you done this before now?" I've wanted to for quite some time. I'd never done it before now because it would have been a pain to move all of the threads. I would have had to do it one-by-one in the past. I looked at my Admin controls today and realized with the latest upgrade this was very easy to do now.

3. There is zero chance that post counts are going to be removed. I often don't recognize user names, so post counts and join dates help me in understanding people's history at FOFC. I do not consider posts in Werewolf threads to be a true part of that history. No, the post count isn't the only thing I look at, but it is ONE thing.

4. In my opinion, it is apples and oranges to compare the several thousand posts (including well over half of many people's post counts) to a few dozen in Hot or Not threads or whatever.

5. No one is being singled out. Anyone who posts here can still post in GD, just not the Werewolf games. You are not second-class citizens because you post in Werewolf threads. Heck, other than the vocal few who have PMed me, I don't even know who posts in Werewolf therads and who doesn't, and I don't really care either way whether you do or you don't.

That's probably all I'm going to say on this issue, unless there's something in this post that is unclear and therefore needs clarification.

--Ben

[GoldenEagle]

Complaints from who? I never saw one person complain about WW. I guess if we had more IHOFers playing, than this would not be an issue. I personally think that this is a bull shit decision.

[Schmidty]

It doesn't matter.

Man is fallible, and Skydog is a man without opposition. Even if he makes a mistake, complaining does zero good. He is God.

This issue is over. Sad, but true.

[Abe Sargent]

SkyDog, thanks for taking the time to make an offical announcement. I and other appreciate something offical in the public space. Even if I think you are making a major error of judgment, I still respect you and thank you for all of the time you have put into this board.

-Anxiety

[Abe Sargent]

Now, having said that, I would like to know the substance of the complaints against the WWers. What were the complaints? I cannot, for the life of me, think of what issue people would have, which is why I was so struck by today's disenfranchisng decisions.

Skydog: I think if you could illuminate what the problem really was, some of us might have an easier time swallowing the solution.

[GoldenEagle]

Many more people complained about the threadkiller threads than the WW threads. Those were deserved. The threadkiller posts were pointless. What Skydog does not realize is that more though and effort goes into WW posts than 99.5% of the posts that are in General Discussion. What he is telling us is that those posts are worthless. As Blade said, this is a slap in the face to all of us who partcipate in this game.

If I did not like the people of FOFC, I probably would never visit here again. I use to think Skydog ran a very good board, but his decision here is just downright stupid.

[Ben E Lou]

The vast majority of the complaints were about massively-inflated post counts. To put this in perspective, the top poster in the M-F thread has 341 posts, and that was an extreme abnormality. It is pretty normal for the top poster in a Werewolf thread to have 200-300 posts, and this happens over and over again. It really is a very unusual situation.

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

The vast majority of the complaints were about massively-inflated post counts. To put this in perspective, the top poster in the M-F thread has 341 posts, and that was an extreme abnormality. It is pretty normal for the top poster in a Werewolf thread to have 200-300 posts, and this happens over and over again. It really is a very unusual situation.

Finally. The TRUTH!!!

[Mr. Wednesday]

Post counts were inflated!!!11!1!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Many more people complained about the threadkiller threads than the WW threads. Those were deserved. The threadkiller posts were pointless.

..and the threadkiller thread got deleted, now didn't it?

[Schmidty]

So are people like Jeeber going to have their posts deleted as well? Where does it end? What is a "correct" post that "contributes" to FOFC.

Bah, why am I even trying? It's over. No sense arguing with a rock.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

..and the threadkiller thread got deleted, now didn't it?

Exactly. These posts made in WW threads are not pointless. So why delete them?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

The vast majority of the complaints were about massively-inflated post counts. To put this in perspective, the top poster in the M-F thread has 341 posts, and that was an extreme abnormality. It is pretty normal for the top poster in a Werewolf thread to have 200-300 posts, and this happens over and over again. It really is a very unusual situation.

I appreciate your quick response SkyDog.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

The vast majority of the complaints were about massively-inflated post counts. To put this in perspective, the top poster in the M-F thread has 341 posts, and that was an extreme abnormality. It is pretty normal for the top poster in a Werewolf thread to have 200-300 posts, and this happens over and over again. It really is a very unusual situation.

Skydog, don't you think it is odd that the people who complained are saying we shouldn't be upset because post count shouldn't be important.

[Lathum]

dola-
Skydog, did you get my PM?

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Lathum

dola-
Skydog, did you get my PM?

Do you think SD is actually going to take the time to respond to your PM?

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

So are people like Jeeber going to have their posts deleted as well? Where does it end? What is a "correct" post that "contributes" to FOFC.

Bah, why am I even trying? It's over. No sense arguing with a rock.

Why the hell do you keep bringing me into the argument? What makes your posts more "worthwhile" than mine?

[Abe Sargent]

Agree with Jeeber, can't argue to restore posts as importtant and knock Jeeber at the same time.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Skydog, don't you think it is odd that the people who complained are saying we shouldn't be upset because post count shouldn't be important.

So you have a list of the people complaining?

You've made this assertion here and in GD - that the people who sent complaints to SD and the people who say not to be upset about post count are the same people.

I'm curious as to how you know the list is the same?

[hoopsguy]

Add me to the list who think it sucks to single out Jeeber, just because he has the most posts. I think there are several people who frequently post that I don't care one way or the other about their thoughts - Jeeber is not in that category.

I have a few jumbled thoughts on this whole process but I think I would rather take a few days to process them before spewing them in this thread.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by wade moore

So you have a list of the people complaining?

You've made this assertion here and in GD - that the people who sent complaints to SD and the people who say not to be upset about post count are the same people.

I'm curious as to how you know the list is the same?

how can it not be? Please tell me what complaint people are making about werewolf? It is obviously the post count issue since SD turned them off?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Add me to the list who think it sucks to single out Jeeber, just because he has the most posts. I think there are several people who frequently post that I don't care one way or the other about their thoughts - Jeeber is not in that category.

I have a few jumbled thoughts on this whole process but I think I would rather take a few days to process them before spewing them in this thread.

Actually I don't think Schmidty is actuallly saying Jeeber shouldn't have his posts, but rather using him as an example of someone who posts quite a bit, and like the rest of us, rarely on FOF topics.

What I don't get is that in one breath Skydog is saying "WW players aren't second class citizens" and in the next breath saying they're not part of the history of the board and do not deserve to have their posts count.

The definition of a second class citizen is someone who is treated worse than another based on who they are, or in this case, what they choose to post about. Skydog is saying, LITERALLY, "You're not cool enough for the rest of us". This is akin to not letting the little kid on the block play with the other kids because you own the football. It's childish.

[JeeberD]

Thank you, hoops and Anxiety.

And it's not just about that one post, Eric. Schmidty's been throwing my name around a lot today...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

"WW players aren't second class citizens" and in the next breath saying they're not part of the history of the board and do not deserve to have their posts count..

I differentiate between the individual, and certain posts that the individual makes.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Thank you, hoops and Anxiety.

And it's not just about that one post, Eric. Schmidty's been throwing my name around a lot today...

Well, if I did (and I don't think I did, but I want to be sure), I apologize. I certainly don't think you have anything to do with this, nor should you lose any post counts.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Lathum

how can it not be? Please tell me what complaint people are making about werewolf? It is obviously the post count issue since SD turned them off?

You're not understanding my point.

You're making the claim that the same people that complained about post counts are the same that are saying you shouldn't be worried about post counts.

How do you know these are the same people?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I differentiate between the individual, and certain posts that the individual makes.

SkyDog:
No one on this board should be treated like second-class citizens.

Y'know, it seems from all intentions that every decision you make I've disagreed with, but it's not true, but you're free to take this however you will. I know you could not give two cents for my opinion, but here goes ... you should treat EVERYONE fairly. People who post in WW threads are every bit as important to this board than people who post in Hot or Not, or in Drunk Guy, or in Maximum Football, or any other thread that doesn't have FOF-related material. The out-of-topic discussions, REGARDLESS of what they are, are the very reason this board has lasted as long as it has. It creates familiarity with others, it allows you to see who you choose to have discussions with. It has value.

I'm sorry you don't see that value. I'm disapointed that you don't see that value. If you did get complaints about WW, I'm sorry you take people's baseless, childish and immature complaints to heart, while ignoring the people who play in their game, don't threadjack, don't bother anyone else and has done NO harm to this board.

I've disagreed with you on topics before, and I've been proven wrong a few times in my assertions when we spoke via IM or on boards. This time, SkyDog, you're wrong. You're just wrong, man.

:shakes head:

[Fouts]

I think Skydog is saying that he treats every individual fairly, but not every post an individual makes. So the individual isn't the second class citizen, the post topic is.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Skydog is saying, LITERALLY, "You're not cool enough for the rest of us". This is akin to not letting the little kid on the block play with the other kids because you own the football. It's childish.

Actually, he's not LITERALLY saying that. He's saying that the WW game is a different kind of thread than other FOFC threads, just like Dynasty reports, Hattrick specific discussions, etc. And he's right - WW threads and posts are a game, a game that requires people to post often.

The vast majority of FOFC threads are off-topic, since there hasn't been a new Solecismic product in quite a while. But while many of these off-topic threads are silly and inane, they are different in a few key respects: posting in them is voluntary; those posts in general are more likely to reveal the character of the person making them; they are generally observations, opinions or humor, all of which bring a contribution to the flavor of the board. WW posts can certainly contain these, but those are off-topic posts within a WW thread; are not the majority of the posts in WW threads mechanical in nature, i.e. related specifically to the mechanics of how the game works?

What SkyDog did is give the WW players their own specific forum section just like the Dynasty authors, the Hattrick enthusiasts, the FOFC multiplayer matchmakers, the IHOF members and the PC/Console game reviewers (note: this is the only forum segregation where I don't understand the logic behind the decision). And while I don't really care either way about his decision to invalidate WW thread posts from a user's post count, there is at least some logic behind that decision.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

And while I don't really care either way about his decision to invalidate WW thread posts from a user's post count, there is at least some logic behind that decision.

Give me a good reason why that wasn't done to hattrick people as well then............

Waiting...............

[hoopsguy]

FWIW, I apprecaite some of the people who don't participate in WW threads for offering up constructive thoughts on this - Dawgfan and Buccaneer are two that immediately come to mind.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Give me a good reason why that wasn't done to hattrick people as well then............

Waiting...............

Do I look like the mod? Did I pass any judgement on the fact that post counts were invalidated for WW threads?

FWIW, I could understand if SkyDog wanted to invalidate Hattrick thread posts from user's post counts as well by the same logic I provided for WW threads; which is not to say I'm advocating either way, just saying I could see the logic if such a decision was made.

Why the fuck do you care so much?

[Raiders Army]

My thoughts:

• The posters in the WW threads were not discriminated against as individuals, but rather as a group.
• We're mostly men here, so we measure ourselves by our manhood, or rather in this case, our post count.
• There are some people on FOFC that don't think that WW posts mean anything...more than likely they haven't played the game.
• Jealousy or post envy obviously made these people complain.

IMHO, we (as in everyone) should get over it. It ain't no biggie. I liken this to someone taking my parking place at work. I'm somewhat higher up on the food chain in the Army and I believe it's a lower enlisted guy taking my parking place sometimes (and different ones as well). Do I stress over it? Nah. Do I leave a note for them saying it's my parking place? Nah. (Technically, only the generals and handicapped have reserved places) I just park somewhere else. In this case, I'm not going to go anywhere else, but I will shrug at the complaints of those who believe that WW is not as important to FOFC as other threads as I will shrug at the complaints of those who lost posts.

If you played WW strictly to pad your post count, that was the wrong reason to play. That being said, shouldn't the WW parody threads be moved here as well? A parody of something that doesn't count shouldn't count, no?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

IMHO, we (as in everyone) should get over it. It ain't no biggie. I liken this to someone taking my parking place at work. I'm somewhat higher up on the food chain in the Army and I believe it's a lower enlisted guy taking my parking place sometimes (and different ones as well). Do I stress over it? Nah. Do I leave a note for them saying it's my parking place? Nah. (Technically, only the generals and handicapped have reserved places) I just park somewhere else. In this case, I'm not going to go anywhere else, but I will shrug at the complaints of those who believe that WW is not as important to FOFC as other threads as I will shrug at the complaints of those who lost posts.

You should be in the Navy. At least in Norfolk, the Officers get the best parking, then the E7-E9, then the rest of the rabble.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

FWIW, I apprecaite some of the people who don't participate in WW threads for offering up constructive thoughts on this - Dawgfan and Buccaneer are two that immediately come to mind.

Well, like everything else, there are multiple truths in what everyone is saying. It probably does come down to post counts because as SkyDog admitted (he is not the only one), it contributes as a way of valueing a member here. You have to admit yourself that WW threads are a different animal (pun not intended) than everything else. You sign up to play a WW game and you are committed to play the game - which is to post until you get killed, lynched or the game ends. It is not voluntary unless you quit the game (which I've rarely seen). In other words, it is like an online MP league. We do not count posts from IHOF, FOBL, FBCB-FOFC or the many other leagues that many of us are in. WW, being an online MP league, realy has nothing more to do with FOFC than any of those leagues and technically, should have its own forum off of FOFC - if you believe the comparison is valid. You have to admit that WW is closer in format to Hattrick than the GD, so having a separate WW forum makes sense.

Now the argument is that Hattrick falls into the exact same category - and you would have a point. Hattrick, in my mind, is no different than any other MP text sims league. Should WW be treated differently than Hattrick? Probably not, they should be treated the same. In other words, put in a different forum. As far as post counts, either both don't count or both do count. That would make it fair, I think.

I am not of the opinion that post counts make a person more or less valued. My brother has a little over 100 posts here and nearly every one of those are intelligent and well thought out (if not over the head of most FOFCers). But SkyDog would not care anything about him or anything he said, unless it's a topic that he is close to. You should know how he works by now but it's a form of leadership that has proven successful: to be able to spend the time prudently without getting bogged down in details (which should be delegated). It also has to be a measure of fun and that's why he cares only about what he writes and those topics from others he would write about. That's just the way it is.

FOFC, in my years of experience, is a rare breed on the internet. 95% of those posts are written well, with relatively few "chat-like" posts. That's how we can attract a diverse community because more threads are of interest to more people - and there is an unwritten implication to keep that going. That's probably why jbonics is ridiculed, not only for the entertainment factor but we, as a community, do want to discourage more of that.

I've got to go but thanks for asking. Sorry for not proof-reading or editing.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

FOFC, in my years of experience, is a rare breed on the internet. 95% of those posts are written well, with relatively few "chat-like" posts. That's how we can attract a diverse community because more threads are of interest to more people - and there is an unwritten implication to keep that going. That's probably why jbonics is ridiculed, not only for the entertainment factor but we, as a community, do want to discourage more of that.

I'm worried that this part of this post will not be seen by the community at large.

To me this is a GREAT summary of what it is that brings me back to FOFC day after day.

[Abe Sargent]

Agreed Buc and wade. Very well spoken!

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by wade moore

You should be in the Navy. At least in Norfolk, the Officers get the best parking, then the E7-E9, then the rest of the rabble.

I believe in November I'll be coming to Suffolk or Norfolk for a TRADOC conference...maybe I'll try to get a good parking space! Seriously though, when I was a commander, I gave my parking space to the "soldier of the week" every week so I never had one then. I'm used to it.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I believe in November I'll be coming to Suffolk or Norfolk for a TRADOC conference...maybe I'll try to get a good parking space! Seriously though, when I was a commander, I gave my parking space to the "soldier of the week" every week so I never had one then. I'm used to it.

Sorry you have to go to Norfolk.. I hate that town ..

[GoldenEagle]

I still would like to know who complained, other than a mod.

But when someone is so ignorant in their ways there is nothing you can do it. When that person runs the board, you just have to deal with. So, fuck it.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

But when someone is so ignorant in their ways there is nothing you can do it. When that person runs the board, you just have to deal with. So, fuck it.

Good grief - what did SkyDog do that was so horrible or ignorant?

You can still play Werewolf here - there's absolutely nothing preventing that from happening.

So what that your posts in the WW threads here won't count - does this really bother you? If so, have you stopped for a second to think about what that means, that you give a fuck about your post count on a forum on the internet?

I think Bucc and I have done a pretty good job of suggesting the reason why SkyDog views posts made in WW threads are different than posts in other threads. And he himself has explained in what ways post counts matter to him as a moderator when making decisions.

If it bugs you so much that the Hattrick forum and the Wereworlf forum are being handled differently, then make that point to SkyDog - I can certainly support the idea that if posts from this forum don't count, posts in the Hattrick forum shouldn't count either.

But damn, I just can't fathom the level of vitriol from certain people here about this decision - I just don't get it.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I still would like to know who complained, other than a mod.

But when someone is so ignorant in their ways there is nothing you can do it. When that person runs the board, you just have to deal with. So, fuck it.

Good god hop off of your falsely built high horse. You do NOT know what is going on here.

This was not done because of a mod complaining about WW threads.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Sorry you have to go to Norfolk.. I hate that town ..

Yep, I do as well. There are a few nice places to go though, if you got a ton of money the McArthur center is pretty cool, so is Waterside. I was more annoyed by the traffic layout, etc when I lived there and the high cost of housing if you wanted to live in a decent area.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by stevew

Yep, I do as well. There are a few nice places to go though, if you got a ton of money the McArthur center is pretty cool, so is Waterside. I was more annoyed by the traffic layout, etc when I lived there and the high cost of housing if you wanted to live in a decent area.

Yeah, it's not too bad to visit if you know some places to go.

But having to spend a lot of time there (I commuted and worked at the naval base for 3 years, go to ODU basketball games sometimes, visit work friends, etC) I hated it...

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Good grief - what did SkyDog do that was so horrible or ignorant?

You can still play Werewolf here - there's absolutely nothing preventing that from happening.

So what that your posts in the WW threads here won't count - does this really bother you? If so, have you stopped for a second to think about what that means, that you give a fuck about your post count on a forum on the internet?

I think Bucc and I have done a pretty good job of suggesting the reason why SkyDog views posts made in WW threads are different than posts in other threads. And he himself has explained in what ways post counts matter to him as a moderator when making decisions.

If it bugs you so much that the Hattrick forum and the Wereworlf forum are being handled differently, then make that point to SkyDog - I can certainly support the idea that if posts from this forum don't count, posts in the Hattrick forum shouldn't count either.

But damn, I just can't fathom the level of vitriol from certain people here about this decision - I just don't get it.

I can understand the anger surrounding this. SkyDog moved the WW threads because of the complaints of inflated post counts. That means SkyDog cares about and puts some stock in post counts. Since SkyDog cares about post counts, he just gave a slap in the face to everyone affected by the thread moves. If he didn't care about post counts, he would have told the people ocmplaining to take a hike.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I can understand the anger surrounding this. SkyDog moved the WW threads because of the complaints of inflated post counts. That means SkyDog cares about and puts some stock in post counts. Since SkyDog cares about post counts, he just gave a slap in the face to everyone affected by the thread moves. If he didn't care about post counts, he would have told the people ocmplaining to take a hike.

That is exactly it. It is not the fact that I live and die by post counts. I have played in three WW games, so it is not like my post count was affected much by this. But post counts do mean something on this board and that is shown here.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

That is exactly it. It is not the fact that I live and die by post counts. I have played in three WW games, so it is not like my post count was affected much by this. But post counts do mean something on this board and that is shown here.

Add to that the fact that SD said there is no way post counts would be removed and you really know that there is a purpose to them. I still think counting WW posts makes sense because this is one area that really is community building. There are so many threads and posts that are just random "look at me" posts, but WW threads are all about interaction...which is what a community should be.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Why the fuck do you care so much?

I think I've made that fairly clear already: WW players got singled out, and it's bullshit.

Pay more attention.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I believe in November I'll be coming to Suffolk or Norfolk for a TRADOC conference...maybe I'll try to get a good parking space! Seriously though, when I was a commander, I gave my parking space to the "soldier of the week" every week so I never had one then. I'm used to it.

Norfolk, yech. Stationed there, not fun.

[st.cronin]

It's not like there are people who play werewolf and don't contribute in other ways. Are there? I can't think of any.