Dave Justice Retires

GrantDawg · 02-07-2003, 08:41 AM

I'm surprised. The guy is only 36. Is he hurting? Did he really drop off that bad? Shoot, I bet he could play first base for the Braves this year. I always liked Justice. He was treated unfairly by some of the Braves fans (and often shot his mouth off to make it worse), but he has the prettiest swing in baseball. Oh well. Maybe I'm the only one surprised and saddened.

Ben E Lou · 02-07-2003, 08:46 AM

I'll never forget the goose bumps in Game 6 of '95. He RIPPED the home fans in the paper that very morning (in the middle of the World Series, no less

). He got booed lustily every time he came up that game. I mean, Game 6 of the World Series and the home crowd is booing one its own stars unmercifully!!! What a circus! He never responded, never acknowledged the boos. All he did was go DEEP (in the bottom of the 7th I think) for a solo shot in a previously 0-0 game. The crowd that had booed him like public enemy number one all game long goes ABSOLUTELY NUTS! CURTAIN CALL BABY!!!!!!!!!! What a moment! (Got goose bumps right now just thinking about it.)

oykib · 02-07-2003, 10:20 AM

I loved when he killed Arhtur Rhodes in that playoff game a few years ago for the Yanks... Killed him!

Qwikshot · 02-07-2003, 01:56 PM

I just he's acheived everything he wanted to, he probably saved well, and now can kick back and relax for the rest of his life...good for him...

JonInMiddleGA · 02-07-2003, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Maybe I'm the only one surprised and saddened.

I'm surprised, but about as far from saddened as possible.

I've run into the arrogant prick on quite a few occasions. His comments to the media don't even begin to indicate what a gigantic walking asshole this egomanical prick is.

Good riddance AFAIC.

rkmsuf · 02-07-2003, 02:33 PM

I thought he was an asshat too.

Qwikshot · 02-07-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I'm surprised, but about as far from saddened as possible.

I've run into the arrogant prick on quite a few occasions. His comments to the media don't even begin to indicate what a gigantic walking asshole this egomanical prick is.

Good riddance AFAIC.

Tell us how you really feel about him...

Craptacular · 02-07-2003, 02:42 PM

He split up with Halle Berry ... what an idiot.

cincyreds · 02-07-2003, 02:46 PM

Is he Hall of Fame material?

He does have 2 rings!!

ctmason · 02-07-2003, 02:48 PM

I agree with Jon, Good Riddance...

JeeberD · 02-07-2003, 02:49 PM

Umm, there are plenty of mediocre Yankees that have more than two rings. Does that make them Hall of Fame material? I don't think Justice has anywhere near HOF credentials, but I don't know his career numbers off the top of my head. But they can't be that great. He hasn't produced at a prolific level in a number of years.

Ben E Lou · 02-07-2003, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I'm surprised, but about as far from saddened as possible.

I've run into the arrogant prick on quite a few occasions. His comments to the media don't even begin to indicate what a gigantic walking asshole this egomanical prick is.

Good riddance AFAIC.

I think I've stated my position on this. Frankly, I don't care how they act. I don't pay to see their interpersonal skills or their morality on display. I pay to see them perform at the highest level on the planet. If Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, or even Bill Clinton could hit .300 with some pop and play a decent first base, I'd say, "bring 'em on!"

Qwikshot · 02-07-2003, 02:50 PM

I don't think he's HOF material...but I'm sure I can be proven wrong.

JeeberD · 02-07-2003, 02:55 PM

.279 BA 305HR 1017RBI 1571hits

Yeah, he may have more career post-season RBI than anyone else, but those numbers above will almost undoubtedly negate that.

primelord · 02-07-2003, 03:10 PM

There is no way Justice is a hall of fame player. If he was even considered the hall would be a joke. And that's not saying that Justice wasn't a fine ball player because he was. But the hall of fame should be for the cream of the crop and Justice isn't that.

When comparing people for the hall of fame in addition to just the overall numbers (which Justice's weren't that great although he had a lot of injuries in his career) you have to look at how he compares to players in his position and the inflated offensive numbers.

I can remember not so long ago when 300 career HR's meant you were a real power guy and had a great career. Now 300 HR's barely gets you into the top 100. Justice had a very solid career and when healthy was one of the better ball players of his time, but nowhere near one of the best ever. His numbers don't compare with other OF's in the hall of fame and they don't even compare well with todays stars. For example Darryl Strawberry has almost identical career stats to Justice. Does anyone think he is a HOF? Even with his troubles aside he isn't.

Anrhydeddu · 02-07-2003, 03:17 PM

cincyreds said whether if you would rather have rings or HoF. There is absolutely no question - HoF. That lasts forever while rings are just commodities that many players sell, pawn or lose.

I hate it when anyone brings up the number of rings a players has in a team sport. This is just as bad as bringing up the number of All-Star appearances since fans started voting on them.

Qwikshot · 02-07-2003, 03:20 PM

Actually I'd rather win the World Series, it's the ultimate team accomplishment...Half of Fame is nice, but it's a personel acheivement...

rkmsuf · 02-07-2003, 03:21 PM

One could argue that if a player values HOF more than that promotes a "selfish" player. Maybe in baseball that works but in other sports (football, basketball) that is precisely the behavior that gets negative attention.

primelord · 02-07-2003, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
cincyreds said whether if you would rather have rings or HoF. There is absolutely no question - HoF. That lasts forever while rings are just commodities that many players sell, pawn or lose.

I hate it when anyone brings up the number of rings a players has in a team sport. This is just as bad as bringing up the number of All-Star appearances since fans started voting on them.

Wow are you serious? You think most people would rather be in the Hall of Fame then have a ring? I don't think that's true at all. I remember players going nuts when Dan Fouts said making the Hall of Fame was more important to him than winning a championship.

This shocks me coming from a guy who complains about today's sports stars playing for themselves instead for the team. But now your saying the hall of fame, an honor that is mostly based on your personal achivements, is more important than team success. Interesting.

Ksyrup · 02-07-2003, 03:26 PM

Money aside, of course, who do you think is most comfortable with the way his career ended, Marino, Kelly, or Elway? All are HoF'ers, but Elway got what Marino and Kelly never could, and I bet it still eats them up inside. Not that they begrudge Elway specifically, but the fact that they never could attain that goal.

primelord · 02-07-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Money aside, of course, who do you think is most comfortable with the way his career ended, Marino, Kelly, or Elway? All are HoF'ers, but Elway got what Marino and Kelly never could, and I bet it still eats them up inside. Not that they begrudge Elway specifically, but the fact that they never could attain that goal.

And to expand on that I think both Marino and Kelly would have traded their spot in HOF in a heartbeat to win a championship.

Ksyrup · 02-07-2003, 03:32 PM

Comments like Dan Fouts made are only made by great players who never won a championship. And I don't blame them, for waht else do they have to be judged on but their numbers and subsequent election to the HoF? I'd make the same argument on my behalf and others just like me if I was in his situation. But those who have won know better.

Anrhydeddu · 02-07-2003, 03:33 PM

I don't know. While the thrill of going for a championship is great, it can become fleeting, esp. when your team collapses and you have to go through the drudgery of the season(s). A player can look back with fond memories but it is fleeting. On the other hand, there is nothing like walking into the Hall of Fame and seeing your plaque up there among the greatest in the game. Long after you have died, you will still be there and remembered. Fans may even forget a player even played on a championship team but I doubt you can forget that a player is in the Hall.

Football may be different but we were talking about Justice and the baseball HoF.

primelord · 02-07-2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Comments like Dan Fouts made are only made by great players who never won a championship. And I don't blame them, for waht else do they have to be judged on but their numbers and subsequent election to the HoF? I'd make the same argument on my behalf and others just like me if I was in his situation. But those who have won know better.

I don't know about that. I see your point, but again using the Marino and Kelly example I don't think either one of those guys would ever say that.

rkmsuf · 02-07-2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Football may be different but we were talking about Justice and the baseball HoF.

That may be a reason fooball has become more popular. Team play is more appealing than seeing Joe Shmoe go for his 2000th hit for the Orioles.

I think the concept of HOF is severely outdated due to the dollars these days for athletes. Baseball players are not going to play 15+ seasons regularly anymore.

Ksyrup · 02-07-2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I don't know. While the thrill of going for a championship is great, it can become fleeting, esp. when your team collapses and you have to go through the drudgery of the season(s). A player can look back with fond memories but it is fleeting. On the other hand, there is nothing like walking into the Hall of Fame and seeing your plaque up there among the greatest in the game. Long after you have died, you will still be there and remembered. Fans may even forget a player even played on a championship team but I doubt you can forget that a player is in the Hall.

Football may be different but we were talking about Justice and the baseball HoF.

Wait, are we talking about from the fans' perspective or the players? I think we're talking about the players. No member of the Angels, even a guy like Orlando Palmeiro, will forget last year. And I'm sure each team does something special at its ballpark to remember its championship teams. Even the Marlins from 1997 will still care more about that championship than anything that happens to them in their careers.

Ksyrup · 02-07-2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by primelord
I don't know about that. I see your point, but again using the Marino and Kelly example I don't think either one of those guys would ever say that.

I'm not saying they all do, but when they do, that's the reason.

Anrhydeddu · 02-07-2003, 03:38 PM

primelord: I think it comes from my attitude that I put more emphasis on Career Value than Peak Value. In other words, I value having 10 really good seasons more highly than 2 great ones (if those bring in a championship) and 8 mediocre ones. But you are right, I should not have said "absolutely no question" because while I still believe baseball is different than football, I can see championship/HoF either way.

Anrhydeddu · 02-07-2003, 03:43 PM

Ksyrup: I don't know actually (players or fans perspective), I'm just brainstorming.

I think my first reaction came from when I thought about The Toad getting a ring in 1998(?). He did not deserve a ring and did nothing positive to contribute towards it, but he got one anyway. It is a team accomplish that should always be cherished and celebrated but it shouldn't be a measurement of worth or contribution.

rkmsuf · 02-07-2003, 03:47 PM

Quote:

I think my first reaction came from when I thought about The Toad getting a ring in 1998(?). He did not deserve a ring and did nothing positive to contribute towards it, but he got one anyway. It is a team accomplish that should always be cherished and celebrated but it shouldn't be a measurement of worth or contribution.

That is a ridiculous example since he would never be considered as a great player. Do we now have to debate the likes of Benji Gill since he was on the Angels?

Ksyrup · 02-07-2003, 03:49 PM

But again, a measurement of worth to whom? You're looking at it from an outsider's perspective. From his perspective, you'd have to guess that being on that team, regardless of his contribution, will undoubtedly be the most special memory of his baseball career. Especially since he'd have a hard time being admitted to the HoF even with a ticket!

I'm not suggesting that a player's worth should be determined by the fact that they played for a championship team. I think the discussion is, what would a player rather have - HoF or championship? Nearly all would say the latter.

Anrhydeddu · 02-07-2003, 03:52 PM

I'm thinking you may be right.

JeeberD · 02-07-2003, 03:54 PM

Who's The Toad?

02-07-2003, 08:46 AM	#2
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	I'll never forget the goose bumps in Game 6 of '95. He RIPPED the home fans in the paper that very morning (in the middle of the World Series, no less ). He got booed lustily every time he came up that game. I mean, Game 6 of the World Series and the home crowd is booing one its own stars unmercifully!!! What a circus! He never responded, never acknowledged the boos. All he did was go DEEP (in the bottom of the 7th I think) for a solo shot in a previously 0-0 game. The crowd that had booed him like public enemy number one all game long goes ABSOLUTELY NUTS! CURTAIN CALL BABY!!!!!!!!!! What a moment! (Got goose bumps right now just thinking about it.) __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! Last edited by Ben E Lou : 02-07-2003 at 10:25 AM.

02-07-2003, 01:56 PM	#4
Qwikshot Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ...down the gravity well	I just he's acheived everything he wanted to, he probably saved well, and now can kick back and relax for the rest of his life...good for him... __________________ "General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams

02-07-2003, 02:33 PM	#6
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	I thought he was an asshat too. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

02-07-2003, 02:46 PM	#9
cincyreds High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mississippi	Is he Hall of Fame material? He does have 2 rings!! __________________ The Dallas Cowboys!! America's Team will rise again.

02-07-2003, 02:49 PM	#11
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	Umm, there are plenty of mediocre Yankees that have more than two rings. Does that make them Hall of Fame material? I don't think Justice has anywhere near HOF credentials, but I don't know his career numbers off the top of my head. But they can't be that great. He hasn't produced at a prolific level in a number of years. __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

02-07-2003, 10:20 AM	#3
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	I loved when he killed Arhtur Rhodes in that playoff game a few years ago for the Yanks... Killed him!

02-07-2003, 02:42 PM	#8
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	He split up with Halle Berry ... what an idiot.

02-07-2003, 02:48 PM	#10
ctmason High School JV Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Mesa, AZ	I agree with Jon, Good Riddance...

02-07-2003, 02:50 PM	#13
Qwikshot Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ...down the gravity well	I don't think he's HOF material...but I'm sure I can be proven wrong. __________________ "General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams

02-07-2003, 02:55 PM	#14
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	.279 BA 305HR 1017RBI 1571hits Yeah, he may have more career post-season RBI than anyone else, but those numbers above will almost undoubtedly negate that. __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

02-07-2003, 03:10 PM	#15
primelord Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	There is no way Justice is a hall of fame player. If he was even considered the hall would be a joke. And that's not saying that Justice wasn't a fine ball player because he was. But the hall of fame should be for the cream of the crop and Justice isn't that. When comparing people for the hall of fame in addition to just the overall numbers (which Justice's weren't that great although he had a lot of injuries in his career) you have to look at how he compares to players in his position and the inflated offensive numbers. I can remember not so long ago when 300 career HR's meant you were a real power guy and had a great career. Now 300 HR's barely gets you into the top 100. Justice had a very solid career and when healthy was one of the better ball players of his time, but nowhere near one of the best ever. His numbers don't compare with other OF's in the hall of fame and they don't even compare well with todays stars. For example Darryl Strawberry has almost identical career stats to Justice. Does anyone think he is a HOF? Even with his troubles aside he isn't. __________________ .

02-07-2003, 03:17 PM	#16
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	cincyreds said whether if you would rather have rings or HoF. There is absolutely no question - HoF. That lasts forever while rings are just commodities that many players sell, pawn or lose. I hate it when anyone brings up the number of rings a players has in a team sport. This is just as bad as bringing up the number of All-Star appearances since fans started voting on them.

02-07-2003, 03:20 PM	#17
Qwikshot Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: ...down the gravity well	Actually I'd rather win the World Series, it's the ultimate team accomplishment...Half of Fame is nice, but it's a personel acheivement... __________________ "General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams

02-07-2003, 03:21 PM	#18
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	One could argue that if a player values HOF more than that promotes a "selfish" player. Maybe in baseball that works but in other sports (football, basketball) that is precisely the behavior that gets negative attention. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

02-07-2003, 03:26 PM	#20
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Money aside, of course, who do you think is most comfortable with the way his career ended, Marino, Kelly, or Elway? All are HoF'ers, but Elway got what Marino and Kelly never could, and I bet it still eats them up inside. Not that they begrudge Elway specifically, but the fact that they never could attain that goal. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 02-07-2003 at 03:27 PM.

02-07-2003, 03:32 PM	#22
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Comments like Dan Fouts made are only made by great players who never won a championship. And I don't blame them, for waht else do they have to be judged on but their numbers and subsequent election to the HoF? I'd make the same argument on my behalf and others just like me if I was in his situation. But those who have won know better. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 02-07-2003 at 03:33 PM.

02-07-2003, 03:33 PM	#23
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	I don't know. While the thrill of going for a championship is great, it can become fleeting, esp. when your team collapses and you have to go through the drudgery of the season(s). A player can look back with fond memories but it is fleeting. On the other hand, there is nothing like walking into the Hall of Fame and seeing your plaque up there among the greatest in the game. Long after you have died, you will still be there and remembered. Fans may even forget a player even played on a championship team but I doubt you can forget that a player is in the Hall. Football may be different but we were talking about Justice and the baseball HoF.

02-07-2003, 03:38 PM	#28
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	primelord: I think it comes from my attitude that I put more emphasis on Career Value than Peak Value. In other words, I value having 10 really good seasons more highly than 2 great ones (if those bring in a championship) and 8 mediocre ones. But you are right, I should not have said "absolutely no question" because while I still believe baseball is different than football, I can see championship/HoF either way.

02-07-2003, 03:43 PM	#29
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	Ksyrup: I don't know actually (players or fans perspective), I'm just brainstorming. I think my first reaction came from when I thought about The Toad getting a ring in 1998(?). He did not deserve a ring and did nothing positive to contribute towards it, but he got one anyway. It is a team accomplish that should always be cherished and celebrated but it shouldn't be a measurement of worth or contribution.

02-07-2003, 03:49 PM	#31
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	But again, a measurement of worth to whom? You're looking at it from an outsider's perspective. From his perspective, you'd have to guess that being on that team, regardless of his contribution, will undoubtedly be the most special memory of his baseball career. Especially since he'd have a hard time being admitted to the HoF even with a ticket! I'm not suggesting that a player's worth should be determined by the fact that they played for a championship team. I think the discussion is, what would a player rather have - HoF or championship? Nearly all would say the latter. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 02-07-2003 at 03:50 PM.

02-07-2003, 03:52 PM	#32
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	I'm thinking you may be right.

02-07-2003, 03:54 PM	#33
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	Who's The Toad? __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

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