What I did last night

[Flasch186]

So last night GF and I went to a seminsar or workshop at the Jewish Family something something services on Interfaith marriages. When we got there it became apparent that it was more of a "lets talk about your raising of the kids" seminar. "no you talk - we'll ask questions to get you talking" sort of BS. Anyways, GF and I fleshed this crap out a long time ago and decided that I'm Jewish, She's Christian, the child will be exposed to both and ALSO taught many other religious outlooks in a more historical interaction kind of way. And we seem to be very cool with this and she is supportive of Judaism and Im very supportive of her faith. We'll see if the kid gets all messed up but Im really focused on his ethics, tolerance, and self esteem and I think if those are done well, religious identity can be less important then those things. WOW, were the 2 social workers against that Idea. they never came right out and admitted that they were against it but they certainly wanted us to pick a religion for the kid. One of the ladies was Jewish and one christian and neither pushed their respective religion but they wanted us to pick one. I was very dissapointed in their inability to see that me and GF were more on the same page than the other couples who were trying to grapple with that idea, in that they HAD picked a religion for the kid and the other parent got left out. One social worker went so far as to say, "My parents did that with me, allowed me freedom like that and wanted me to feel like I had everything but what actually happened is I got nothing and I resented them for that for a long time, until my adulthood, just recently." WTF, that was absolute crappola for her to impose that on me.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

So last night GF and I went to a seminsar or workshop at the Jewish Family something something services on Interfaith marriages. When we got there it became apparent that it was more of a "lets talk about your raising of the kids" seminar. "no you talk - we'll ask questions to get you talking" sort of BS. Anyways, GF and I fleshed this crap out a long time ago and decided that I'm Jewish, She's Christian, the child will be exposed to both and ALSO taught many other religious outlooks in a more historical interaction kind of way. And we seem to be very cool with this and she is supportive of Judaism and Im very supportive of her faith. We'll see if the kid gets all messed up but Im really focused on his ethics, tolerance, and self esteem and I think if those are done well, religious identity can be less important then those things. WOW, were the 2 social workers against that Idea. they never came right out and admitted that they were against it but they certainly wanted us to pick a religion for the kid. One of the ladies was Jewish and one christian and neither pushed their respective religion but they wanted us to pick one. I was very dissapointed in their inability to see that me and GF were more on the same page than the other couples who were trying to grapple with that idea, in that they HAD picked a religion for the kid and the other parent got left out. One social worker went so far as to say, "My parents did that with me, allowed me freedom like that and wanted me to feel like I had everything but what actually happened is I got nothing and I resented them for that for a long time, until my adulthood, just recently." WTF, that was absolute crappola for her to impose that on me.

My parents divorced when I was young, but the plan was always for them to expose me to all 3 faiths of the family. My grandparents were Jewish and were allowed to take me to various services. My mother was Catholic and took me to Mass. My father was an off again-on again Non demoninational Charismatic Christian. I was exposed to all 3 religions, and I don't think it messed me up at all. Once, I was about 16, I chose a religion to "focus" on for lack of a better word. I later took a comparitive religion class in college.

There are many more similarities than differences between most religions, and if you and your future wife choose to expose your child to multiple religions and are respectful of each other's feelings, I say more power to you.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

My parents divorced when I was young, but the plan was always for them to expose me to all 3 faiths of the family. My grandparents were Jewish and were allowed to take me to various services. My mother was Catholic and took me to Mass. My father was an off again-on again Non demoninational Charismatic Christian. I was exposed to all 3 religions, and I don't think it messed me up at all. Once, I was about 16, I chose a religion to "focus" on for lack of a better word. I later took a comparitive religion class in college.

There are many more similarities than differences between most religions, and if you and your future wife choose to expose your child to multiple religions and are respectful of each other's feelings, I say more power to you.

Thats how we feel

[Barkeep49]

Flasch far bet it for me to criticize this but you should realize that statitics show that while it doesn't mess up the child, normally the child chooses the culture's dominant religion. It's too bad that the seminar you went to was such a waste.

[gottimd]

I'm jewish and married to an italian catholic and we did an interfaith pre marriage counseling. I forget the term for it, its a catholic thing, that the priest requires you to do before you get married. Pre Cana, thats it! Anyways, we had pretty much a similar situation as you Flasch. It was specifically designed for interfaith couples of jewish and catholic faiths. They had couples come in and argued both sides, Raise as both or Raise as one. We haven't quite made up our minds yet.

The priest however did say something funny, and said not to repeat but that "who cares, the muslims are out to kill us all anyways!". The room burst out in laughter, as well as the looks on everyones faces of "I can't believe he just said that".

My wife, coming from long island, and me from Maryland, which my parents were amazed that I found the only non-jewish girl on Long Island to marry, and she found the only Jewish man in the south. Keep in mind her family is from NY so anything below NJ is the deep south apparently.

[gottimd]

Dola

I just read what I wrote and it is so choppy and makes no sense, and I am too lazy to now go back and edit it.

[Buzzbee]

So, was anyone else planning on ignoring what Flasch said and skipping down to the Flere diagram? And were they disappointed when there wasn't one?

[Desnudo]

I was disapointed that this wasn't a racier story.

[Fonzie]

If the social workers were there to provide some sort of professional counseling, then they should have been prepared to back up their recommendations with research rather than with anecdotes of their personal experiences. Doing otherwise strikes me as unprofessional, to say the least.

Raise your kids the way you want Flasch - there are a whole host of variables that will influence the way your kids "turn out." This is just one of them (and may not even be amongst the more important, in the grand scheme of your future kids' overall behavior).

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Dola

I just read what I wrote and it is so choppy and makes no sense, and I am too lazy to now go back and edit it.

Flasch Syndrome is spreading...

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

So last night GF and I went to a seminsar or workshop at the Jewish Family something something services on Interfaith marriages. When we got there it became apparent that it was more of a "lets talk about your raising of the kids" seminar. "no you talk - we'll ask questions to get you talking" sort of BS. Anyways, GF and I fleshed this crap out a long time ago and decided that I'm Jewish, She's Christian, the child will be exposed to both and ALSO taught many other religious outlooks in a more historical interaction kind of way. And we seem to be very cool with this and she is supportive of Judaism and Im very supportive of her faith. We'll see if the kid gets all messed up but Im really focused on his ethics, tolerance, and self esteem and I think if those are done well, religious identity can be less important then those things. WOW, were the 2 social workers against that Idea. they never came right out and admitted that they were against it but they certainly wanted us to pick a religion for the kid. One of the ladies was Jewish and one christian and neither pushed their respective religion but they wanted us to pick one. I was very dissapointed in their inability to see that me and GF were more on the same page than the other couples who were trying to grapple with that idea, in that they HAD picked a religion for the kid and the other parent got left out. One social worker went so far as to say, "My parents did that with me, allowed me freedom like that and wanted me to feel like I had everything but what actually happened is I got nothing and I resented them for that for a long time, until my adulthood, just recently." WTF, that was absolute crappola for her to impose that on me.

She is your Fiancee now, not your girlfriend!!!

[Schmidty]

*edited - trying to learn to not be an asshole all the time.

[Logan]

I'll be paying plenty of attention to this thread and looking for others to share their experiences with interfaith marriages and the issue of raising kids. I'm Jewish (although not even close to being religious), and my girlfriend is Catholic (and also not very religious). And while its way, way, waaay too early in the relationship to be thinking about marriage and we're also too young, I've been curious about how people handle these situations.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

One social worker went so far as to say, "My parents did that with me, allowed me freedom like that and wanted me to feel like I had everything but what actually happened is I got nothing and I resented them for that for a long time, until my adulthood, just recently."

I'm going to out on a very short limb and guess that the reason she resented her parents had NOTHING to do with religion, but that it was merely her crutch for finding a reason to blame her parents for some shortcoming in her life that was more due to her personal choices and actions.

Personally, I think your choice is the right way to go. If religion is important to your family, choosing a religion for your kid just freezes one parent completely out of an important part of the kid's life. That's a tough thing to do. It sends a signal to the kid that something is wrong with the other parent and/or their religion.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

*edited - trying to learn to not be an asshole all the time.

New Years resolution or just in general?

SI

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

If the social workers were there to provide some sort of professional counseling, then they should have been prepared to back up their recommendations with research rather than with anecdotes of their personal experiences. Doing otherwise strikes me as unprofessional, to say the least.

Raise your kids the way you want Flasch - there are a whole host of variables that will influence the way your kids "turn out." This is just one of them (and may not even be amongst the more important, in the grand scheme of your future kids' overall behavior).

I completely agree.

[Karlifornia]

Let your child decide, as you guys have planned. Religion shouldn't be force fed, anyways. You aren't born a certain religion. Children can't even understand religion until a certain age.

This reminds of a David Cross joke: "I'm going to raise my kids amish. They'll say to me "You get to play video games, why don't I get to play video games?" And I'll say, 'You're Amish, that's what you believe in' "

[st.cronin]

If you had asked me before you went, I would have told you it would be a waste of time.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I'm going to out on a very short limb and guess that the reason she resented her parents had NOTHING to do with religion, but that it was merely her crutch for finding a reason to blame her parents for some shortcoming in her life that was more due to her personal choices and actions.

Personally, I think your choice is the right way to go. If religion is important to your family, choosing a religion for your kid just freezes one parent completely out of an important part of the kid's life. That's a tough thing to do. It sends a signal to the kid that something is wrong with the other parent and/or their religion.

its not even that religion is that important but it is int he world, and I DO think it helps to instill morals and ethics (not necessary but helpful IMO) but we also think it would be a good way to teach tolerance, education, knowledge, history, etc. We dont want to be devoid of religion but spirituality is important.

[DeToxRox]

Shoulda' gone bowling.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

New Years resolution or just in general?

SI

Just in general. But note that I said that I'm trying not to be an asshole all the time.

[Dutch]

I'm Jewish, She's Christian, the child will be exposed to both and ALSO taught many other religious outlooks in a more historical interaction kind of way. And we seem to be very cool with this and she is supportive of Judaism and Im very supportive of...*ahem*...her faith.

That's how I read that the first time.

[stevew]

I thought it was Fi instead of GF now?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by stevew

I thought it was Fi instead of GF now?

Just let him go with "GF"- the "Fi" tag is fleeting anyways, soon it will be "WF" or "SWMBO" or something like that.

SI

[AZSpeechCoach]

My parents had a similar situation in the '70s. Jewish man, Catholic woman. When they decided to get married, before all of this interfaith openness, they were astounded at how closed-minded the rabbis were to their marriage, going so far as trying to get my parents to sign an agreement stipulating that the children would be raised Jewish if they permitted the marriage. They eventually got married in a Catholic service with some Jewish touches (a Bible opened to the Old Testament rather than a cross, the breaking of the wineglasses, etc.) and decided to raise the kids Catholic. As a sidenote, about 15 years later, my father decided to convert to Catholicism.

[Logan]

Giving this thread the ol' 4 month bump...

Originally Posted by Logan

I'll be paying plenty of attention to this thread and looking for others to share their experiences with interfaith marriages and the issue of raising kids. I'm Jewish (although not even close to being religious), and my girlfriend is Catholic (and also not very religious). And while its way, way, waaay too early in the relationship to be thinking about marriage and we're also too young, I've been curious about how people handle these situations.

Our relationship has progressed really well. We love each other, we haven't fought once, we get along with each other's friends, all those other good things. We still hadn't discussed marriage or other long-term things, but I think we were both starting to realize that this could potentially be it. I had noticed my family start to realize this as well.

Quick tangent...as I said a few months back, I was raised Jewish. Got Bar Mitzvah'ed and all that stuff, but I don't consider myself religious at all. I was raised being told that I would eventually marry a Jewish girl. My brother and sister are both married to Jewish people. When I started dating Jaime, I told my parents that she wasn't Jewish, and soon after my mother told me that I should realize what I was getting into, and I should stop before it went too far. I told her basically that I didn't care about her not being Jewish, and while it upset them initially, they came around once they got to know her better. Now, they're both crazy about her.

So last week, Jaime went to lunch with her mother, where they had a "little talk." Basically, her mother sat her down and made her realize all the things she hadn't thought of if she married me (or any Jew). Jaime always intended on getting married in the church where her parents got married--that would be out now. Her mom told her that she would have to have her kids get a bris, not a baptism. She told her how her kids wouldn't be able to celebrate both religion's holidays. She told her how she would be expected to convert to Judaism. All this stuff got her really worried, and we talked about it.

The first thing I said was that her mother didn't know exactly what she's talking about. There are plenty of Jewish laws that say you can't do this or that, but I don't care about that. And I would never ask or even want her to convert to Judaism, since that's not what she is and I wouldn't want her to feel like she has to change. I told her how I wouldn't have a problem raising our kids to respect, understand, and appreciate both of our religions. Basically, I was saying how we will work through all these issues, and everything will be okay.

Her biggest concern is that she thinks while I say everything is okay now, all these problems will start to come up 10 years down the road when we have kids and are putting them through these religious practices. She worries that if we decide to give one child a baptism, my family won't come, and it will drive us apart. Or if one will be Bar Mitzvah'ed, her family would be upset, and it would cause problems between us. So she is starting to question whether we should even continue our relationship. Through all this, she has said that her feelings about me haven't changed at all.

Complicating this is that about 2 hours after we had this talk, I found out my grandmother (Holocaust survivor, came over from Germany in 1948) passed away at 89 years old. We had the funeral yesterday, and Jaime came with me. Now for anyone who has been to an Orthodox funeral, a lot of the usual things are said: "She came over proud to be Jewish, and it was important for her to raise a Jewish family, and her son then raised a Jewish family who was proud of their religion, etc." So we talked last night (even though she didn't want to just because of what I was going through), and as you can imagine, hearing all the things she heard yesterday kind of strengthened her worries about how my family would truely feel if we were to get married.

So after this extremely long post (this is my first effort at "talking" with someone else about this, so I basically got all my thoughts written down) for which I apologize, I come to the good people of FOFC for some advice. I don't know what I can say to her that will calm her worries, as "it will be okay" doesn't seem good enough. By the way, I think her concerns are valid, as I don't know how thrilled my family would be to attend a baptism. But I know they would support me, and my now-passed grandmother basically gave me her approval (and because of what she went though, this means more than anyone else). So for those who already posted about being in interfaith marriages, how did you get past all those issues besides saying you would raise your kids to either respect both parent's religions or let them choose your own? Did you decide if your children would get a bris/baptism/Bar Mitzvah? How did you come to that decision?

I'm looking for any help I can get. It would be much appreciated, as I don't want to lose her, and right now it's not looking good. Thanks.

[KevinNU7]

Originally Posted by Logan

We love each other, we haven't fought once

How is this possible? You agree on everything? Just seems odd to me.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by KevinNU7

How is this possible? You agree on everything? Just seems odd to me.

Well of course not. But I see a difference between "disagreeing on things" and "arguing over things."

[flere-imsaho]

Well, I'm in an interfaith marriage, but I don't know how helpful my experience will be to (either of) you. That's because she's the Jew and I was raised as a Protestant Generalist (variously a Congregationalist, Methodist and Unitarian).

I'll say two things right off: 1) finding a Rabbi to marry us was difficult and 2) the interfaith "class" we found (run by the Rabbi who eventually married us) was good.

For us, though, it's been pretty easy, in that we've not had the family issues to deal with about which both of you guys are talking. Since I don't feel any affinity with any religion, and since my folks were (and are) completely OK with any of our decisions on this matter, it was never really an issue for her or her folks. Although, having said that, when I first met my wife, she was of the opinion that she'd never marry a non-Jew, and I know at first her mother was not especially thrilled that she married a non-Jew. Both of those things changed, obviously.

The key issue for us has been that it's clearly important to both my wife and her folks that we bring up any kids of ours as Jews. That was probably non-negotiable, and I think (based on what I've seen) that it's the single greatest stumbling block for interfaith marriages. "Luckily" for us, since I didn't really bring a religious tradition to the marriage, and since my parents don't care, it was never an issue for us.

Anyway, I'm sure I've not really helped out all that much, but I hope my experience is some good food for thought for you guys. Best of luck.

[KevinNU7]

A little advice here. I find that most people who deem themselves to be very religious are typically hypocrits. I know being a Catholic we are taught to love everyone and not jude yet I see judgement passed on others all the time. If someone wants to judge your relationship that would be something I would bring up immediately. I'm sure the Jewish faith has a similar standing and it would be very easy to make people feel guilty if they speak out about what you are doing.

Also, as you grow older you will realize it doesn't matter what your Aunt think or truely even your mom. You will at some point realize that doing what makes you and your family happy is most important. You will glady have a bapitsm and just be thankful to those who came.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

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O RLY? That is very interesting.

[gottimd]

I was in a very similar situation, and we went ahead with the marriage. I am jewish, not practicing, had a bar-mitvah and only go on the high holidays. My wife, is Italian catholic, and her family is somewhat religious but she is not, but there was already one interfaith marriage in her family. My cousin, gave me a lot of good advice in regards to getting married. He was in the same situation you and me a few years back. If there is anything you need to know, I’ll try the best that I can to help

Anyways, when I first told my parents about the situation, they weren’t happy. Ironically my fathers side of the family, the more conservative, took the idea as “we are happy he is in love” type stance to it. They were the side that was full of Holocaust survivors, etc that I thought were gonna have a major issue with it. Now my moms side of the family, especially my grandmother, was absolutely against it, and actually caused a lot of commotion and objection throughout the whole planning phase that it pissed my then fiancé off to the point where she didn’t want her coming at all. Over time it wore down on her and she accepted the union.


We did everything we felt incorporated both religions and rituals to the point where no one religion stood out. Signed the ketubah, lit the unity candle, read from the old and new testament, etc. How we decided on these things were, we read up on a lot of marriage rituals for each religion, and decided which ones where applicable to this day and age, and prayers that wouldn’t offend anyone. We had a priest and a rabbi and we did the ceremony outdoors, not in a church or synagogue. We went to an interfaith pre-cana (sp?) marriage counseling, something that the catholic church required us to do to get married, which I didn’t know about.


We still haven’t decided on raising our children, but we don’t have any yet and don’t plan to for a few years, so we may differ in that respect. But my wife has had thoughts of converting, through no persuading by me or my family. She feels more connected to the Jewish religion than her own. In any case, there are many positives about this type of interfaith. The only holidays you have to argue about spending with whose family is basically thanksgiving!


I’m sure I have rambled on too much, and probably haven’t answered any of your questions, but I wanted to write something somewhat fast as I work, and let you know Ill try and answer/help any questions you have.

[Toddzilla]

ZOMG - Worst. Formatting. EVAR.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by KevinNU7

I'm sure the Jewish faith has a similar standing and it would be very easy to make people feel guilty if they speak out about what you are doing.

In my opinion, there's a difference here. Jews are more than a religion, they're a culture. It's a hard thing to quantify, but in my experience talking about the "Jewish community" is more like talking about the "Mexican/Irish/Polish/German community" than the "Catholic community", for instance. And yes, obviously there are exceptions.

This is the crux of the problem, though. If a Jew marries a non-Jew, many in the "community" see this act as the Jew leaving the "community" to a certain point. If said Jew also decides not to raise the kids as Jewish, it's another step away from the "community".

I think it's this fear of having their children leave the community that sets Jewish parents off when their child talks about marrying a non-Jew. The other thing that factors in here is that said community has a long history of persecution that's emphasized, memorialized, and remembered throughout their many traditions.

In this way they act similar to, say, immigrant communities in the States, when someone "leaves the fold". I say this as someone who's had experience with 1st-generation immigrant communities in the States. Many of these communities are stridently anti-intercultural-relationship, but otherwise nice people. This is an aspect that parts (often large parts) of the Jewish community (worldwide) seem to share. There's a similar viewpoint there.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

In my opinion, there's a difference here. Jews are more than a religion, they're a culture. It's a hard thing to quantify, but in my experience talking about the "Jewish community" is more like talking about the "Mexican/Irish/Polish/German community" than the "Catholic community", for instance. And yes, obviously there are exceptions.

Everything flere said, including what I cut out, is true. If you ask a Catholic/Christian/Protestant/etc person "What are you?" a large percentage of the time they will say Irish/British/Russian/etc. Ask a Jewish person what they are, I'd say 95% of the time they would say "Jewish." And that's definitely where a lot of the interfaith marriage issues come from, in my opinion.

[Logan]

I had a good talk with my brother today, and now I have an idea of what I want my next move to be with this situation. I appreciate the feedback I got, and welcome any more that would come. It always helps to hear about different experiences.

Also, this was my first effort out of ~1850 posts where I shared a personal issue. Thanks for making it easy.

[stevew]

I thought I had it bad when my wife wanted to get confirmed into the catholic church and my parents weren't too supportive(they are some pentecostal branch). I'm presbyterian. I hope your situation works out.

[DaddyTorgo]

if it was me (although i have no experience in this at all) i'd just tell her that I loved her, and that my family could go fuck themselves if they didn't agree with my choices, because SHE is #1 in my life now, not them, and they will have to learn to live with it.

[Chubby]

Teach your kids what you think is right, not what some someone else tells you to teach them.