Stock car career sim?

[Honolulu Blue]

Testing the waters. Post your ideas and suggestions here.

[Braggadocioussss]

There's actualy more to this stuff than most people know. If it were really that easy then everybody would be out there "just driving in circles" winning millions of dollars.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeee Haaaaw!!! It's 'bout time!

[andy m]

There's actualy more to this stuff than most people know.

yeah! sometimes they even have to use the brakes.

[Coder]

I'd definately be interested.. I'm not that in to NASCAR, but I like the idea of a motor-textsim.. this past summer I even went as far as buying a NASCAR boardgame as well as a Formula 1 Management boardgame made by Lambourne to get some ideas on how one could impliment it in a computersim .

Then again, I'm up for anything textsimmish.. how about a golf textsim? Anyone?

[Bee]

I'm not a big racing fan, but I think a text sim could be very good and the sport seems to be set up to make an excellent text sim.

[cheese]

Same, not a big racing fan, but if it's a sports sim and if people seem to be liking it, i'd at least try it out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'd be over the moon with excitement & would be chomping at the bit more than any unavailable genre.

That said however I'll add a list of items important (or even critical) to me. Mostly in hopes of sparking further discussion on the subject & motivating one or more talented programmers out there.

1) Realism. It's gotta "feel right" or it ain't gonna fly as far, high nor fast. Which means the development team will need to have knowledge of the genre, either their own or a variety of contributors.

2) Overall depth. Every racer in the world seems to say loudly & consistently that it isn't just about on the track anymore. The money is as big as any part of the sport today, which means a definitive sim has to address this in some detail. Sponsorships, team ownership, driver negotiations, all have to be there IMO.

3)Divisional Depth. NASCAR isn't just Winston Cup. The inclusion of the BGN is very important IMO, with the rise & fall of drivers playing a role. Addt'l series as the game develops seems logical as well.

4) Databases - Since NASCAR can be a bear about licensing (who isn't these days?) I think editable driver, owner, even sponsor & manufacturer info is the way to go in those areas. And make it importable/exportable. In fact, that's a good target for virtually every database field. The tracks, the schedule, all of it, user customizable. Want Texas to have that 2nd race? Give 'em one. Want to eliminate road courses? Buh-bye Watkins Glen.

5) Vision -- To do this right, the developer(s) have to have some idea of where they're heading. Don't fall into the trap of trying to be all things to all people from Day One. That's a good bet to lead to being a disappointment to everybody. For me, a driver oriented sim that feels like a glorified arcade game won't likely even show up on my radar, but if that's going to be a part of it, then focus on it & be honest about it up front. Likewise, if it's a business-oriented sim, then say so. Or whatever it is, just do that part very well for starters before trying to become too much else.

I could go on for hours about this subject & what the definitive sim would need, but at least these are some starters.

[Honolulu Blue]

Good points everyone. Keep 'em coming.

Originally posted by Coder
I'm not that in to NASCAR, but I like the idea of a motor-textsim.. this past summer I even went as far as buying a NASCAR boardgame as well as a Formula 1 Management boardgame made by Lambourne to get some ideas on how one could impliment it in a computersim .

Ah Lambourne. I ordered one of their tennis games to see if I can make a spreadsheet out of it. The delivery was pretty quick (one week from England) and the game interesting. I'll definitely take a closer look at it when I have more time.

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I'd be over the moon with excitement & would be chomping at the bit more than any unavailable genre.

Oh me too. I can't believe both the career text sim AND race text sim niches have been uncovered for so long. EA's game now has a career mode of sorts, but

(a) it only lasts for 20 years,
(b) you can only take over a new team, and
(c) it hasn't made it to the PC version.

That said however I'll add a list of items important (or even critical) to me. Mostly in hopes of sparking further discussion on the subject & motivating one or more talented programmers out there.

I'm not a programmer (well, I used to work with BASIC, but my knowledge has grown rusty and nobody uses it anymore anyway), but I did develop a slick little series of formulas and ratings in a spreadsheet to sim a race. That was 1 1/2 years ago, and I've fooled around with it some on & off. It's "on" now, and I have a bit of help from another FOFC member while I design the financial system and other enhancements.

So, bring it on.

1) Realism. It's gotta "feel right" or it ain't gonna fly as far, high nor fast. Which means the development team will need to have knowledge of the genre, either their own or a variety of contributors.

The sim engine I have works well, I think. I've simmed hundreds of races to be sure of it. And where it doesn't work, it's easy enough to change one or more of the many numbers involved so that it does work. Actually, in its current form, it might work a little TOO well ("why can't the 49 car win?")

I'm a Johnny-come-lately to the NASCAR party (2 1/2 years or so), but I have a basic understanding of how that world works, and where the future seems to be heading.

2) Overall depth. Every racer in the world seems to say loudly & consistently that it isn't just about on the track anymore. The money is as big as any part of the sport today, which means a definitive sim has to address this in some detail. Sponsorships, team ownership, driver negotiations, all have to be there IMO.

I absolutely agree with you. The one problem is that I can't call up Roush Racing and say, "Yo, Jack, how much are you raking in from Rubbermaid?" All of those numbers are private, and so the best I'd likely be able to do is to have "fuzzy", approximate financial numbers.

3)Divisional Depth. NASCAR isn't just Winston Cup. The inclusion of the BGN is very important IMO, with the rise & fall of drivers playing a role. Addt'l series as the game develops seems logical as well.

Interesting point. Currently I have about 60 drivers rated - all the full-timers, most of the part-timers, and a few who don't have WC jobs anymore. Some of those guys are regulars in NBS and CTS.

I probably COULD do a complete rating set for all the lower division drivers (at least the ones that matter) and COULD modify the formulas in order to simulate those races, but I wonder how much it would matter to other people.

4) Databases - Since NASCAR can be a bear about licensing (who isn't these days?) I think editable driver, owner, even sponsor & manufacturer info is the way to go in those areas. And make it importable/exportable. In fact, that's a good target for virtually every database field. The tracks, the schedule, all of it, user customizable. Want Texas to have that 2nd race? Give 'em one. Want to eliminate road courses? Buh-bye Watkins Glen.

I like customizability and hope to have as much as possible in there. Far too soon to make any promises, though.

5) Vision -- To do this right, the developer(s) have to have some idea of where they're heading. Don't fall into the trap of trying to be all things to all people from Day One. That's a good bet to lead to being a disappointment to everybody. For me, a driver oriented sim that feels like a glorified arcade game won't likely even show up on my radar, but if that's going to be a part of it, then focus on it & be honest about it up front. Likewise, if it's a business-oriented sim, then say so. Or whatever it is, just do that part very well for starters before trying to become too much else.

The game I'm thinking of will definitely be business-oriented. The emphasis will be on the owner, for a career - as opposed to individual races. It's also likely to be tech-light, which I'm sure will infuriate the gearheads, but oh well.

I could go on for hours about this subject & what the definitive sim would need, but at least these are some starters.

I enjoyed reading and thinking about them. You can reply in this thread or - if you really have that much to say - drop me a line and we can discuss it without bothering everyone else.

[sabotai]

Jon, learn to program. Then you can do it yourself. (You seem to know a lot about racing. You'd do a much better job than me, at least.)

[Buzzbee]

In reading HB's Formula 1 dynasty, the thought of a NASCAR sim certainly crossed my mind. I think it is an area that certainly has potential. here are some of my thoughts.

Like Championship Manager, you could choose to start out at your local dirt track with limited funds and build the program, perhaps moving to a Sportsman Series or ARCA or sprint cars. If you're good enough you might make it to the Wintson West or even the Busch series. Of course the ultimate goal would be the Winston Cup circuit. This might help the immersion factor. Or you could start out as Jack Roush and see how long it takes you to own a dozen teams.

Securing sponsors. Could be an excellent area for customization. Allow gamers to import logos for their sponsors and add names of potential sponsors. Sponsors could be rated on how deep their pockets are, how visible they are, the prestige they bring to the program, financial stability of the sponsor, fan base brought by sponsor (Bud, Miller Lite, Pennzoil, Tide, STP, etc.), appearances required. A teams success, reputation, fiscal management, drivers under contract and other factors might determine which sponsors were willing to back a particular team.

Financial aspects - Cost of parts/engines/tires/gas, etc. Driver's contracts. Salaries of crew chief and crew, "boys in da shop", marketing expenses, administrative overhead, travel, NASCAR fines and fees, replacing wrecked or damaged cars, etc. could all be part of the financial model. Money from sponsors, memoribilia sales, winnings, dollars from appearances could all be sources of revenue.

People aspects - Driver/crew chief personalities. Dealing with media and fans. Unhappy employees - want more money, want more responsibility, want less responsibility, personality conflicts, etc.

Qualifying/Race day strategy - Car setups - Shock packages (Stiff, medium, soft), Weight distribution, wedge, tire pressure, spoiler angle, etc. Pit strategy - 2 tires, four tires, car adjustments, full fuel or splash N' go, make pit stop on yellow or stay out and lead a lap.

I think a text based NASCAR sim is certainly a possibility and I think there are probably enough NASCAR/computer game fans that would welcome this type of game. Online racing would even be a possibility.

[illinifan999]

I like all of Buzzbee's ideads. Although, you might want to make it optional to set your car setup. Or at least have something for stupid people (<------) that suck at car set-ups that makes it easier to get involved. I'd like to be able to sometimes set it up, but other times let the computer handle it.

[Buzzbee]

Yeah, race day activities would probably be the most difficult to design. While it would be neat to be able to set up your car, there probably aren't that many people who would want to micro-manage at that level. Also, the races themselves would be difficult. I can't imagine getting reports or lap times from EVERY SINGLE LAP at Bristol. My head hurts just thinking about it, but you might want to give the gamer the option of controlling pit strategy. For example, "Pit window is coming up in 5 laps. We'll need two more stops for fuel and might be able to make it one more stop on tires. We can make about 10 more laps on fuel, but the tires are pretty slick. When do you want to come in?" Or you can hire a top-notch crew chief and let HIM/HER worry about it. The more I think about it, it would probably be way too difficult to implement in race action to control. I think a simply "Sim Race" would have to be the order of the day.

[condors]

make it possible to have a brand new team with a driver in the busch series stay together and grow into a winston cup contender also it seems drivers are at their best when they are young then again when they get old and go through bad spells even the great ones go through bad streches. I would love a driving rating at every track, some may be better short tracks others the driving courses also probally have a "home" track where they know it very well.

I also think it is critical to give feedback so you know what happened, did the driver try to go to fast into the turn and come out poorly , "miss his mark", is the car loose heading into the turn, tight coming out? also include suggestions from the pit chief for newer players, Make pits crucial to the game their are teams and races that continually help(or hurt) their drivers if there was a bad pit let him know(if he changed 2 tires and didn't gain spots on guys taking 4 you should know this information)

Race day conditions aren't the same as qualifing

some guys are great qualifiers others get better as the race goes on(#3 always found his way to the front at the end of races)

Team chemistry you always hear about it make it part of the game guys working on the same page can get better results(have penalties for changing the crew around and let them get better the longer they are together)

Some thoughts for setups some "suggested setups"
1-pure speed
2-good on long runs(may even get better gas mileage)
3-great handling(could help avoid the "big one")

also make sure there are tactis to the race
try to get upfront and stay their
stay in the back and avoid trouble till the last xxx amount of laps then make your run
be patient and take oppurtinites as they come
finish the race with the car in one piece
etc

[cmp]

I would like to see a Stock Car Racing Sim over any other sim game. We have football, basketball, baseball, soccer, pretty much everything but racing.

I'd love to have a game where I would be the owner of a NASCAR team and bring a brand new driver up from the Busch Series and develop him into a superstar. Then develop other talent from local short tracks up through the ranks until they reach Winston Cup.

A Stock Car Sim is really the only game I am looking forward to right now. I've waited a long time for one, and hopefully won't have wait to much longer for one be developed.

[Honolulu Blue]

Once again, I'm happy that so many good points are being brought up. Allow me some brief comments on how my vision compares:

Working your way up through the ranks - Drivers do it all the time, of course, but it's my perception that few owners at the top level have come up from lower levels. Mostly they've either been in WC for a long time, or they ponied up the money to start at the very top. Not an A-1 feature for me, but something I'll certainly keep in mind.

Sponsors - Buzbee's points are all excellent, a few of which I already had planned to try to implement, and others which I'll try to shoehorn in. Thanks.

Financials - Workin' on it. I think I have a fair idea of how the money gets allocated.

Qualifying/race day strategy - Abstracted. Crews, chiefs, and drivers are rated for how well they qualify and how well they race. It's not possible to point a direct finger at one decision that makes or breaks a race. I think that's actually good, but I'm sure that others won't agree. I'll see what progress I can make here.

Ratings - Drivers are currently rated for their aggression, accident avoidance, and qualifying skill. They're also rated for their driving skills at each broad kind of track (short track, road course, speedway, and superspeedway). That has its limitations, I know, but it's the best I can do.

I've also flirted with giving each driver "home" tracks where they do better. Not currently implemented, but could eventually make the cut.

Feedback - I'm trying to think of the best way to do this. If a team has engines that blow every fourth race, you'll see it and it'll show in the miserable finishes. A sluggish pit crew, on the other hand, can be just as costly but won't show up directly. It's a good subject to think about.

Team chemistry - Shall I base it on horoscopes?
Seriously, I'd like to put it in in some form.

Once again, thanks for reading and voting.

[RPI-Fan]

I'd definately be interested.. I'm not that in to NASCAR, but I like the idea of a motor-textsim..

If you didn't know, there is an (excellent) Formula I simulator from Wizard Games. Honolulu Blue (I believe) did a great dynasty with it, and I know I messed around with it for quite a while. It was pretty good. I'd advise checking it out.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

A Stock Car Sim would be great!
I wonder why none has come out yet . ?
Any way ....it should include a very important feature called : Popularity and a Hall of Fame and of course Multiple car teams and engine builders and such...I dont car if it has fictional drivers and stats as long as its good .

[Fidatelo]

Front Office Curling would be great. Skip my team through the World Curling Tour season, win a provincial championship or maybe even the Brier, earn an Olympic berth... sweeeeeeet!