The internet and anonymity

[Ben E Lou]

Some observations...

We all ackowledge at least to some degree that there are at least SOME differences in how we interact on the 'net as opposed to face-to-face. To a large degree, those differences come from the perceived and/or real anonymity that the internet affords. However, what I am finding fascinating with the younger generation is that more and more, it seems that they are using the internet for the more serious interactions in their lives, even with people with whom they interact on a day-to-day basis.

I started to notice it with two kids around 4 or 5 years ago. One girl (there's a song on my CD about her, to give some of you context for this) was heavily involved in YL. She was at club every week, at the small group my wife led every week, at our hang-out breakfast every week, and she also helped lead our middle school ministry with me and others. Add to that time at ball games, school events, etc., she'd see either my wife or me face-to-face four or five times in a normal week. However, back then we rarely had a deep conversation with her face to face. In fact, my wife found it almost painful to interact with her one-on-one. BUT, get this girl on the internet, and she'd share her deepest hurts, fears and frustrations with both Jen and I via e-mail. I am not exaggerating when I say that I have an entire folder with six sub-folders in Outlook just dedicated to e-mail correspondence with her. She's a Junior in College now, and has gotten much better with face-to-face communication, but still seems to prefer e-mail when she wants advice about something important in her life.

Well, fast-forward to 2006. What was unusual about Sarah in 2001 is becoming more and more the norm now. What precipitated this particular post was the fact that I received, via FACEBOOK, for goodness' sake, a correspondence sent yesterday from a kid looking for advice on whether or not to break up with his girlfriend. They've been dating for well over a year, and he was asking some DEEP questions in this facebook PM. What strikes me as so interesting about this is that this is kid with whom I have had breakfast once a week for over an entire semester supposedly to talk about stuff in his life, but rarely getting two words out of him about anything really important. We meet face-to-face. He has my home phone, mobile phone, office phone, and even e-mail address, but he chose to use the convoluted PM function at Facebook for this most difficult question--probably the biggest decision of his life up to this point, and he's not unusual. I usually spend 10-20 hours a week with high school or middle school kids, making myself very available for face-to-face interactions, but more and more, it seems that the kids prefer to do "fun" interactions face-to-face, and more serious ones via Facebook, MySpace, Xanga and e-mail.

I don't really have any specific questions, or particular answers. I'm just wondering where this is all leading as a society when this group of kids becomes adults.

Just some musings on a Sunday morn...

--Ben

[Antmeister]

Not really suprised by this, and I don't think this is a next generation issue. With the introduction of email alone, it has changed the workplace forever. I can't tell you how many times that people have dealt with an issue with their boss or co-workers over email, rather than by a face to face meeting. While at the workplace, I have gotten more information about a person's problems in life than in a private face to face meeting. And you would think that this would occur a heck of a lot less when IT has the ability to scan any messages at work, but it still happens to this day.

[Barkeep49]

Well as someone who is closer in age to the kids you are working with than you, I understand where they're coming from. But I think it's important for you to remember that if you didn't have all that face contact with them, they'd likely not feel comfortable doing the emails and such. The face time still builds up trust even if they choose to ask their serious questions in a way that minimizes risk.

[Ajaxab]

Writing does provide some semblance of a shield from immediate responses a person may not particularly like. It necessarily creates distance between sender and receiver in a way that makes it a bit easier to share intimate detail than face-to-face. Writing also enables people to theoretically get their message right. Of course it doesn't always work that way, but one can write something, check it to see if it's what they really want to say and then post it rather than trying to reel some spoken word back into the boat that flipped off their tongue.

I find this discussion interesting in that we are allegedly moving to more and more of an image based culture and yet the kids that are growing up are arguably using some form of print to communicate a lot of ideas. I would suspect that many of them write more than I ever did at their age.

Interesting issues here for sure.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Well as someone who is closer in age to the kids you are working with than you, I understand where they're coming from. But I think it's important for you to remember that if you didn't have all that face contact with them, they'd likely not feel comfortable doing the emails and such. The face time still builds up trust even if they choose to ask their serious questions in a way that minimizes risk.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. What we call "Contact Work" isn't just the most important part of our ministry. It IS our ministry. We'll never stop going to games, practices, school plays, pageants, pool halls and anywhere else we can find 'em. "We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our very lives, because you had become so dear to us."--I Thessalonians 2:8

[Ben E Lou]

I didn't say this directly, but what I also find interesting is the preference for the additional shielding of Facebook or Myspace rather than just firing up an e-mail or IM (which seem like they'd be much easier, time-wise.)

As for the comment about expressing thoughts via writing, absolutely. I wrote an underground newspaper in high school, so I did a lot more expressing myself in writing than most, but I didn't write anywhere near as much as these kids do.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

Writing does provide some semblance of a shield from immediate responses a person may not particularly like. It necessarily creates distance between sender and receiver in a way that makes it a bit easier to share intimate detail than face-to-face. Writing also enables people to theoretically get their message right. Of course it doesn't always work that way, but one can write something, check it to see if it's what they really want to say and then post it rather than trying to reel some spoken word back into the boat that flipped off their tongue.

I find this discussion interesting in that we are allegedly moving to more and more of an image based culture and yet the kids that are growing up are arguably using some form of print to communicate a lot of ideas. I would suspect that many of them write more than I ever did at their age.

Interesting issues here for sure.

What I find interesting, is the younger kids also have poorer writing skills on average than previous generations.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

What I find interesting, is the younger kids also have poorer writing skills on average than previous generations.

I don't think that's particularly odd, for two reasons:

1. They're writing more to each other, not necessarily in the classroom. In other words, no one is grading them or correcting them for spelling/grammar.
2. They may write more, but they're just as lazy as we were, therefore they're taking more shortcuts than we took.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. What we call "Contact Work" isn't just the most important part of our ministry. It IS our ministry. We'll never stop going to games, practices, school plays, pageants, pool halls and anywhere else we can find 'em. "We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our very lives, because you had become so dear to us."--I Thessalonians 2:8

I don't usually contribute much to this topic, but this comment really struck a chord with me.

What very, very rewarding work that must be, SkyDog.

[QuikSand]

There ism of course, the long-standing "stranger on a train" theory of psychology -- that it's easier to confess and bare your soul to a complete stranger (with a perceived lack of any follow-up) than to a trusted friend or mentor. I can understand that, to some degree.

On a very different topic, most psychologists argue that the overwhelming popularity of slot machines (by leaps and bounds the most profitable part of any gambling casino) is that it allows people to gamble...and lose their money... in anonymous privacy. Seems to me there may indeed be a relationship between these phenomena.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I don't really have any specific questions, or particular answers. I'm just wondering where this is all leading as a society when this group of kids becomes adults.

I've been pondering this question for a while myself. I don't work with kids as young as you do, but my office has a few positions where we typically hire kids straight out of college. Two years ago I had one of these young women complain about her computer operating slowly. One thing I discovered is that she had five different IM programs operating at once -- I didn't even know there were that many. The young woman who replaced her is even worse. I have no doubt that they must spend at least an hour a day at work communicating via IM. So much for productivity.

Now our most recent hirees have added a new wrinkle -- the headphones. I don't think we're too far away from the point where all of our young hirees are almost completely cutoff from the personal environment around them.

My communication/journalism studies have always pointed toward the notion that we are headed toward increased isolationism as our communication becomes less personal. This is Marshall McLuhan's nightmare. I've always been intrigued by his media philosophies, and I think they are bearing out. It's no the content of television, music and the Internet, it's the mediums themselves that are changing us. The tough thing about Internet communication is that it is a cool media; how many misunderstandings have you seen online when someone misinterprets sarcasm or humor versus in real life? We had to invent smilies just for that.

I think the choice of Facebook is significant. The more cumbersome the communication process, the more distance there is.

I do recognize this isn't uncommon. Earlier generations relied on letters and often shared more intimate information via letters than were shared face-to-face. Our generation didn't have the internet growing up, so we used "notes" -- we handled our most personal communications with notes passed during classes than we did face-to-face. I think the only difference is that it seems this generation is replace more and more face-to-face communication with electronic commuication.

I'm not sure where we're headed either. I hate to use the word "dehumanizing," but I fear that's the direction we are headed. As is usually the case, I don't think it's the current generation that will be the handful; I think it's the generation after that. Given how today's kids deal with personal communication, how do you think they will deal with their kids?

Even more musings on a Sunday morning ...

[Eaglesfan27]

Ben,

I'm not surprised by this. Back when I did therapy (before Katrina), I had 3 patients who repeatedly brought up with me that they would prefer to do E-Therapy (i.e. therapy via email and instant messages.) They were willing to pay the same amount of money for the hour long session, and they were willing to pay a decent fee per email. They had researched it. I therefore researched it and was surprised to see there are quite a few E-Therapists that advertise on the web. I'm not knocking E-therapy, but these 3 people all had no external barriers to coming to see me. They all had cars. It wasn't a prohibitively long drive (the longest drive was about 30 minutes.) It was a character trait in all of them that they had difficulty confiding in people when face to face (for 2 different reasons between the 3 of them.)


I think for many people it is at least somewhat easier to reveal things on the internet, or via email, even if they see the people regularly who they are revealing those feelings to.

[Drake]

When I write things down, I can say whatever I want without having to worry about the consequences of being completely honest -- plus, I can say everything I want to say, exactly how I want to say it, and if I end up being too honest, I can hit "Delete". Written communication provides an avenue for honesty without the immediate judgment of face-to-face communication.

[Lorena]

I think e-communication might be easier for some because when you SAY something, that's it, it's said, when you WRITE it, you have time to think and ponder what you write before you hit the "send" key.

It is a little scary and I agree with kcc, I feel sorry for our grandkids that will pretty much grow up in this kind of atmosphere. The kids nowadays are wizzes when sending messages via phone. I can never push those buttons as fast as they can.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Ben,

I'm not surprised by this. Back when I did therapy (before Katrina), I had 3 patients who repeatedly brought up with me that they would prefer to do E-Therapy (i.e. therapy via email and instant messages.) They were willing to pay the same amount of money for the hour long session, and they were willing to pay a decent fee per email. They had researched it. I therefore researched it and was surprised to see there are quite a few E-Therapists that advertise on the web. I'm not knocking E-therapy, but these 3 people all had no external barriers to coming to see me. They all had cars. It wasn't a prohibitively long drive (the longest drive was about 30 minutes.) It was a character trait in all of them that they had difficulty confiding in people when face to face (for 2 different reasons between the 3 of them.)

I think for many people it is at least somewhat easier to reveal things on the internet, or via email, even if they see the people regularly who they are revealing those feelings to.

Yeah, but I'd imagine therapy is a fairly stressful environment. And making sure your words are "just right" is much more difficult. Never mind your ability for them to say something they didn't mean and for you to misinterpret.

SI

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Yeah, but I'd imagine therapy is a fairly stressful environment. And making sure your words are "just right" is much more difficult. Never mind your ability for them to say something they didn't mean and for you to misinterpret.

SI

Part of the therapeutic process (for some modalities of therapy) is having the patient develop enough trust in the therapist that they don't worry about having their words coming out "just right."

[Barkeep49]

Eagles you don't come out and say it, but in your professional opinion do you think that E-Therapy is a bad thing?

[Buccaneer]

What about for those of us that cannot speak articulately but can do so through written forms of communications?

I prize being able to write effectively, not in myself but in others as well (esp. at work those we've hired). I was a lazy writer during that age because I never put any thought into it (nor did I know how to write effectively). What happens when a generation cannot express their thoughts, ideas and work to others that are clear, concise and understandable? Would another way arise?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Eagles you don't come out and say it, but in your professional opinion do you think that E-Therapy is a bad thing?

I think it has its place. For example, if someone is in a rural area or other underserved area where there are a dearth of therapists, I think it can be useful. However, I think face to face therapy is generally superior.

[Draft Dodger]

I don't think this is as generational as we might think, except for two factors. 1, the younger you are, the more likely you are to comfortably use technology like IM or facebook or whatever and 2, I think each generation will naturally tend to be a little bit more adventerous than their parents.

I don't do all that well on one on one, face to face stuff, even with my wife. Whether it's confrontation or expressing my feelings, I just don't do it well. Even those last two sentences, I would not have said to anyone standing right in front of me.

I have (well, had...but that's a different story) a good friend who I didn't see very often in person. On IM or email, we talked openly and honestly about anything and everything. Nothing was out of bounds, really, and if there was anything we didn't know about the other, I'd be surprised. In person? Not much to say at all.

In my case, I don't think it's so much the anonymity, but whatever makes me uncomfortble in face to face settings just gets wiped away by that computer screen.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

I think e-communication might be easier for some because when you SAY something, that's it, it's said, when you WRITE it, you have time to think and ponder what you write before you hit the "send" key.

Having the time to organize your thoughts before responding is invaluable. While I don't consider myself dumb, I am not the quickest thinker, and sometimes have trouble expressing my thoughts or feelings. I'm the king of having things "come out the wrong way", where what I convey and what I mean are often very different because I phrase it poorly. Even in writing this single post I have deleted and re-arranged many, many words; not because I have changed my mind as to what I want to say, but because I struggle to express it clearly.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I've been pondering this question for a while myself. I don't work with kids as young as you do, but my office has a few positions where we typically hire kids straight out of college. Two years ago I had one of these young women complain about her computer operating slowly. One thing I discovered is that she had five different IM programs operating at once -- I didn't even know there were that many. The young woman who replaced her is even worse. I have no doubt that they must spend at least an hour a day at work communicating via IM. So much for productivity.Now our most recent hirees have added a new wrinkle -- the headphones. I don't think we're too far away from the point where all of our young hirees are almost completely cutoff from the personal environment around them.

My communication/journalism studies have always pointed toward the notion that we are headed toward increased isolationism as our communication becomes less personal. This is Marshall McLuhan's nightmare. I've always been intrigued by his media philosophies, and I think they are bearing out. It's no the content of television, music and the Internet, it's the mediums themselves that are changing us. The tough thing about Internet communication is that it is a cool media; how many misunderstandings have you seen online when someone misinterprets sarcasm or humor versus in real life? We had to invent smilies just for that.

I think the choice of Facebook is significant. The more cumbersome the communication process, the more distance there is.

I do recognize this isn't uncommon. Earlier generations relied on letters and often shared more intimate information via letters than were shared face-to-face. Our generation didn't have the internet growing up, so we used "notes" -- we handled our most personal communications with notes passed during classes than we did face-to-face. I think the only difference is that it seems this generation is replace more and more face-to-face communication with electronic commuication.

I'm not sure where we're headed either. I hate to use the word "dehumanizing," but I fear that's the direction we are headed. As is usually the case, I don't think it's the current generation that will be the handful; I think it's the generation after that. Given how today's kids deal with personal communication, how do you think they will deal with their kids?

Even more musings on a Sunday morning ...

Interesting, I notice pretty much an identical situation at my office.

There's pretty much a divide of two groups -- entry-level people, and senior-level people. One group in their 40's/50's, the other 20's/30's.

All-in-all, everybody seems to be fairly relaxed. Some people are more casual than others (i.e. more willing to push the limits of not being productive), but the way in which they do it is interesting. I cannot think of a single person in the "senior-level" group who uses head-phones at their desk. Additionally, I rarely see any of those people using the internet at all.

Of the "entry-level" people, I'd say well over half regularly use headphones, and typically it's unsurprising to walk by their desk and notice some kind of chat or internet program open. However, I'm not saying that they're less productive than the older people. The older people, however, when they aren't working, tend to gather for little "group chats" or "pop-ins", or use the phone.

Just seems interesting to me how concrete the divide between the behaviors of these two "groups" is.


FWIW, I try and avoid doing any non-work stuff.