A vision of Solecismic's next game

Buccaneer · 10-03-2005, 05:47 PM

I had a vision last night about Solecismic's next game. I don't know if this is original but at least it was clear to me: One of the most talked about annoyances of FOF was the apparent disconnect between TCY and FOF, as well as strong propenents of TCY or FOF, it struck me that the next game will be both. Not an upgrade of both products but a marriage - one seemless universe. A user can choose a TCY career while FOF is run in parallel in the background or a user can choose a FOF career while TCY is run (and the source of the FOF draft since it is one universe). Additionally, as a selling point, a user can choose to play as a coach and move through the ranks in college and to the pros - using the model that FBCB does so well.

Raiders Army · 10-03-2005, 05:50 PM

Nice vision. If it comes true, you're Jesus.

gstelmack · 10-03-2005, 05:52 PM

Boy, this is old. I think I even talked about it last year before the 5.1 / 1.3 patches came out. I would LOVE to see this.

Buccaneer · 10-03-2005, 05:56 PM

I didn't think it was original.

Raiders Army · 10-03-2005, 05:57 PM

Was it a wet dream or didn't you get that far?

Airhog · 10-03-2005, 06:03 PM

Paging Maximus!

Daimyo · 10-03-2005, 07:17 PM

Jim really needs to play CM. That is pretty much what you described and definately the direction I think the game needs to go.

Young Drachma · 10-03-2005, 07:25 PM

High School maybe. But Pop Warner? Nuh Uh

DaddyTorgo · 10-03-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Jim really needs to play CM. That is pretty much what you described and definately the direction I think the game needs to go.

should we all just chip in and buy Jim a copy of CM so that he can play it?

as an aside...everytime I mention a SI/Solecismic "merger" I get intrigued comments from Jim and Marc. I think that's something all of us would drool over.

maximus · 10-03-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airhog

Paging Maximus!

Actually i came up with this idea months ago and I was told that it would be a bad business move.

sabotai · 10-03-2005, 08:13 PM

People bring this idea up every once in awhile and have been since TCY was orginally released.

NoMyths · 10-03-2005, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

one seemless universe

A universe where everything is actual! Wallace Stevens would be so excited!

A-Husker-4-Life · 10-03-2005, 08:56 PM

I really don't think he would merge the game together because they both make him money seperate but if he did it would cost $80+ dollars... Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen...

cthomer5000 · 10-03-2005, 08:58 PM

bad business move. NO.

Buccaneer · 10-03-2005, 09:08 PM

Fair enough.

sovereignstar · 10-03-2005, 09:10 PM

I think FOF and DMB should be merged together. That would rule.

On sale now! DMB-FOF can be yours for only $100!!

Eaglesfan27 · 10-03-2005, 09:20 PM

I agree that it is a bad business model to have both in one game. I don't know if this is technologically feasable, but I think it would be both great for business and for the gamer, if the two games could be run side by side and communicate with each other in real time to update potential draftees and such and run virtual worlds side by side. Heck, I'd just settle for small improvements in the transition of players from TCY2 to FOF.

vex · 10-03-2005, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A-Husker-4-Life

I really don't think he would merge the game together because they both make him money seperate but if he did it would cost $80+ dollars... Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen...

$80? I'll buy.

cuervo72 · 10-03-2005, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I agree that it is a bad business model to have both in one game. I don't know if this is technologically feasable, but I think it would be both great for business and for the gamer, if the two games could be run side by side and communicate with each other in real time to update potential draftees and such and run virtual worlds side by side. Heck, I'd just settle for small improvements in the transition of players from TCY2 to FOF.

A model like say, CoH and CoV...

stevew · 10-03-2005, 09:46 PM

The multiplayer aspect of a game such as this would be phenominal.....imagine 32 pro teams running in the background, as 40-50 human GM's gradually work from division 3 up to the pro level. It would be awesome with american football.

sabotai · 10-03-2005, 09:48 PM

I wouldn't say it would absolutely be a bad business model. Maybe right now, but you'd think at some point, eventually some one is going to do that (combine pro and college into one game). And, giving that it's actually a good game, they will have a leg up on all other football sims (again, giving that the game is as good as, or maybe just slightly worse, then the competition) Who is going to buy 2 games when they can get it all in just 1? But yeah, probably not a good business move until you have a good feeling someone else is doing it.

Axxon · 10-03-2005, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

I think FOF and DMB should be merged together. That would rule.

On sale now! DMB-FOF can be yours for only $100!!

I'm pretty sure DMB alone goes for more than that now.

Capital · 10-03-2005, 09:59 PM

Does Jim have a business model? We haven't really heard from him in a while. I would have hoped I could have purchased a game (preferrably football) by now.

Hurst2112 · 10-03-2005, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Does Jim have a business model?

waiting for good one-liners to follow...

Vince · 10-04-2005, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

...everytime I mention a SI/Solecismic "merger" I get intrigued comments from Jim...

You sure on this one? Every time I've seen it mentioned, if he responds at all it is to maintain his hardline stance as an independent developer. I could be wrong...

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 10-04-2005, 01:51 AM

Well if he has a game it better come quick cuz in a matter of weeks I'll be futbol'ed and hockey'd out with the release of FM 06 and Fry's having EHM05.

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 10-04-2005, 01:53 AM

Maybe Jim should try to merge with a huge videogame corporation like say...EA,

Emiliano · 10-04-2005, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I had a vision last night about Solecismic's next game. I don't know if this is original but at least it was clear to me: One of the most talked about annoyances of FOF was the apparent disconnect between TCY and FOF, as well as strong propenents of TCY or FOF, it struck me that the next game will be both. Not an upgrade of both products but a marriage - one seemless universe. A user can choose a TCY career while FOF is run in parallel in the background or a user can choose a FOF career while TCY is run (and the source of the FOF draft since it is one universe). Additionally, as a selling point, a user can choose to play as a coach and move through the ranks in college and to the pros - using the model that FBCB does so well.

That would be a dream.

Sidhe · 10-04-2005, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoMyths

A universe where everything is actual! Wallace Stevens would be so excited!

I have to give you points for knowing who Wallace Stevens is..

But you've got him just about backwards there, from a critical point of view.. He did write a poem called something like "Not Ideas, But the Thing Itself", so I can see where someone would get the idea that he liked what was actual, if what you mean by that is what is physical and tangible and "real". But his poetry was obsessed with the space that lies between what is really there (which we cannot really know) and what our senses fool us into believing. His is a poetry of the subjective. When you start focusing on perceptions, you've left the actual behind.. I think a universe where everyting was actual would have depressed Stevens to no end.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

--wandering literary critic, ret.

John Galt · 10-04-2005, 08:08 AM

Why is the merger of the games different than the CM/FM model? It isn't like they force the gamer to buy separate games for each of the country leagues or divisions. The universe of college and pro football is much smaller than that of FM. Sure, there are differences that need to be accounted for, but the possibility of a consistent career make it worth it. FM allows you to rise through the ranks and coach conference teams all the way to top divisions in each country. Why can't you start as a small college coach and rise to coach an NFL team? I'm not sure this is the "best" business model, but I don't think you can call it a "bad" one.

WSUCougar · 10-04-2005, 08:12 AM

I think this is the stage of the thread where Solecismic pops in and says something like, "It's a wonderful idea that just isn't technically feasible. The nimboplasm of TCY cannot mesh with the gazoodget of FOF. It can't happen."

gottimd · 10-04-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I think this is the stage of the thread where Solecismic pops in and says something like, "It's a wonderful idea that just isn't technically feasible. The nimboplasm of TCY cannot mesh with the gazoodget of FOF. It can't happen."

Eek gads, nimboplasms and gazoodgets, golly gee willikers!

cuervo72 · 10-04-2005, 08:47 AM

I think in Jim's mind it would cut his revenue stream in half. Take FOFC - you have a group that would by both TCY and FOF were they to be renewed. That's more money than if you just sell one game with both. If Jim could sell twice as many of them, then it might make sense, but there's absolutely no guarantee that would happen.

Anthony · 10-04-2005, 08:55 AM

it *could* happen, jim is just too lazy. he's limited in vision, stubborn in his ways. if someone were to create such a game, it would be glorious. i don't think it's that far off, SI could easily do something like it. a game like that easily falls into the style of sports management games we're accustomed to them producing.

if they were to make such a game - i'm outta here. i'd become a hermit.

Anthony · 10-04-2005, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I think in Jim's mind it would cut his revenue stream in half. Take FOFC - you have a group that would by both TCY and FOF were they to be renewed. That's more money than if you just sell one game with both. If Jim could sell twice as many of them, then it might make sense, but there's absolutely no guarantee that would happen.

not quite. if you had to decide between paying for both a pro game and a separate college game from another company, or one mega game that would cost like $20 or so more - you might be inclined to kill two birds with one stone and go with the mega game. so yeah, you lose money selling two games as one, but you also get more customers by stealing potential buyers from the competition.

but don't look for such a game from Solecismic, jim has made it very clear he likes keeping his company small. like i said, such a game would have to come from SI, who already makes similar games to these.

NoMyths · 10-04-2005, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidhe

I have to give you points for knowing who Wallace Stevens is..

But you've got him just about backwards there, from a critical point of view.. He did write a poem called something like "Not Ideas, But the Thing Itself", so I can see where someone would get the idea that he liked what was actual, if what you mean by that is what is physical and tangible and "real". But his poetry was obsessed with the space that lies between what is really there (which we cannot really know) and what our senses fool us into believing. His is a poetry of the subjective. When you start focusing on perceptions, you've left the actual behind.. I think a universe where everyting was actual would have depressed Stevens to no end.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

--wandering literary critic, ret.

I've got to take points away for not knowing who I am*, but fair enough; we'll play. One of Stevens' most famous lines is "Let be the finale of seem" from his poem "The Emperor of Ice Cream," in which a death serves as the catalyst for a reflection on the difference between the actual and the illusory world (and happens to be the point of my joke). "No ideas but in things" was one of William Carlos Williams' contributions to the Modernist literary perspective, and represented his poems perfectly. Stevens is also one of the Modernist trailblazers, helping to define a style that places most of its stock in image over rhetoric. Consider his "Anecdote of the Jar," for example. Certainly he was obsessed with the ambiguity of the space between the actual and the illusory**; it just didn't change the fact that he did his explorations from an Modernist perspective. You are correct when you say that an absolutely actual universe would have depressed Stevens; he says this himself, in fact, in the very poem I referenced in my first post. The choice of 'excited' over, say, 'pleased,' was a conscious one: Stevens would have had plenty to write about.

* There's a reason the title under my name isn't Grizzled Veteran, and it ain't for my haiku.
** He was also unforgivably obsessed with the colors blue and green, which seemingly appear in 85% of his poems. Not sure what the actual tally is.

John Galt · 10-04-2005, 09:43 AM

Everyone stand back - we have a poet cagematch going on.

NoMyths · 10-04-2005, 09:45 AM

hehe...nah, just some friendly territorial pissings.

cthomer5000 · 10-04-2005, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

not quite. if you had to decide between paying for both a pro game and a separate college game from another company, or one mega game that would cost like $20 or so more - you might be inclined to kill two birds with one stone and go with the mega game. so yeah, you lose money selling two games as one, but you also get more customers by stealing potential buyers from the competition.

but don't look for such a game from Solecismic, jim has made it very clear he likes keeping his company small. like i said, such a game would have to come from SI, who already makes similar games to these.

I think there is a fairly large percentage of college football fans who aren't interested in the pro game, and vice versa. So Solecismic could potentially end up losing itself some customers. If you're a college football fan, why pay 60 for TCY/FOF if you could get Bowl Bound College Football for 40?

Hurst2112 · 10-04-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

If you're a college football fan, why pay 60 for TCY/FOF if you could get Bowl Bound College Football for 40?

Because Jim made it. Proof is in the pudding: Jim makes great games. I certainly see your point, and tend to take HA's side on things like this. Yet, I would think that a college football fan would realize that if a game like this came from Jim, it would be a good game to invest in.

gottimd · 10-04-2005, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

Because Jim made it. Proof is in the pudding: Jim makes great games. I certainly see your point, and tend to take HA's side on things like this. Yet, I would think that a college football fan would realize that if a game like this came from Jim, it would be a good game to invest in.

Couldn't you also, not sure how easy it is to actually implement, but not only package them both into one game, but have the ability to Play only the College side (For TCY fans), and Play only Pro side( For FOF fans), and play both. And even if you select play one side, the other continues to run as well but all AI simulations. For instance, if you select, play college only, you can see how players from your school did in the pro's as well, and in only pro, you can get a feel for the upcoming draft classes?

rkmsuf · 10-04-2005, 12:10 PM

It's like ketchup and mustard in the same bottle. A no brainer.

Blackadar · 10-04-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

if they were to make such a game - i'm outta here. i'd become a hermit.

And what would be different?

Hurst2112 · 10-04-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gottimd

Couldn't you also, not sure how easy it is to actually implement, but not only package them both into one game, but have the ability to Play only the College side (For TCY fans), and Play only Pro side( For FOF fans), and play both. And even if you select play one side, the other continues to run as well but all AI simulations. For instance, if you select, play college only, you can see how players from your school did in the pro's as well, and in only pro, you can get a feel for the upcoming draft classes?

Yes, I am thinking this is what Buc was thinking.

This would be the ultimate game for me. Still, I don't know of many GMs in real life that get canned in the pros and get an AD job in college. Vice versa.

A coach, that's a different story.

rkmsuf · 10-04-2005, 12:16 PM

Hermits don't have computers.

Hurst2112 · 10-04-2005, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Hermits don't have computers.

Hermits have crabs.

CraigSca · 10-04-2005, 12:19 PM

From a business point of view, I'm not sure this makes sense (though it would be cool from a "universe" point of view). If he charged $60, that would certainly take him out of the price range of some folks (probably not anyone here, however).

So, really it's purely theoretical from his point of view as to how much more money he can make selling one large package vs. two smaller packages. I'm sure there would be a lot of development work involved, and you have to wonder what the payback would be, especially if it's not a 100% that he would benefit.

cthomer5000 · 10-04-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

Because Jim made it. Proof is in the pudding: Jim makes great games. I certainly see your point, and tend to take HA's side on things like this. Yet, I would think that a college football fan would realize that if a game like this came from Jim, it would be a good game to invest in.

You're thinking very small here, as is Hell Atlantic. What about the uneducated consumer? A cheaper college game that has prettier graphics (Bowl Bound), or a more expensive college game that also a pro portion you have no interest in?

BTW, I am not trying to knock Bowl Bound. I'm extremely interested in the game personally, and i think it's appearance (from the screen shots i've seen) looks great, and will be more immediately accessible to the average (non-educated) buyer.

rkmsuf · 10-04-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

Hermits have crabs.

So Jim makes a new, awesome game and HA gets crabs.

Interesting.

Hurst2112 · 10-04-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

You're thinking very small here, as is Hell Atlantic. What about the uneducated consumer? A cheaper college game that has prettier graphics (Bowl Bound), or a more expensive college game that also a pro portion you have no interest in?

BTW, I am not trying to knock Bowl Bound. I'm extremely interested in the game personally, and i think it's appearance (from the screen shots i've seen) looks great, and will be more immediately accessible to the average (non-educated) buyer.

I see your point.

I am NOT concerned about the uneducated consumer. I care about a game like this. I care about getting something cool like this from Jim. I could care less about Jim's business plan, target market, etc.

Uneducated consumer? Well, isn't that where marketing comes into play? Oh yeah, we had that discussion before as well.

Also, bowl bound may look better than Jim's games. Hell, it may prove to play better; yet from the history of that family tree (TPF, 400 Studios) all those people who want bells and whistles better realize that the future of BB is questionable.

10-03-2005, 05:52 PM	#3
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	Boy, this is old. I think I even talked about it last year before the 5.1 / 1.3 patches came out. I would LOVE to see this. __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

10-03-2005, 06:03 PM	#6
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	Maximus Paging Maximus! __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

10-03-2005, 07:25 PM	#8
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	High School maybe. But Pop Warner? Nuh Uh __________________ Current Dynasty:The Zenith of Professional Basketball Careers (FBPB/FBCB) FBCB / FPB3 Mods

10-03-2005, 08:56 PM	#13
A-Husker-4-Life College Prospect Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Nebraska	I really don't think he would merge the game together because they both make him money seperate but if he did it would cost $80+ dollars... Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen... __________________ JJ Smitty Owner of the TheC.F.L. - Come by and check us out.

10-03-2005, 09:20 PM	#17
Eaglesfan27 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey	I agree that it is a bad business model to have both in one game. I don't know if this is technologically feasable, but I think it would be both great for business and for the gamer, if the two games could be run side by side and communicate with each other in real time to update potential draftees and such and run virtual worlds side by side. Heck, I'd just settle for small improvements in the transition of players from TCY2 to FOF. __________________ Retired GM of the eNFL 2007 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles (19-0 record.) GM of the WOOF 2006 Doggie Bowl Champion Atlantic City Gamblers. GM of the IHOF 2019 and 2022 IHOF Bowl Champion Asheville Axemen.

10-03-2005, 05:50 PM	#2
Raiders Army Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Black Hole	Nice vision. If it comes true, you're Jesus.

10-03-2005, 05:56 PM	#4
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	I didn't think it was original.

10-03-2005, 05:57 PM	#5
Raiders Army Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Black Hole	Was it a wet dream or didn't you get that far?

10-03-2005, 07:17 PM	#7
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	Jim really needs to play CM. That is pretty much what you described and definately the direction I think the game needs to go.

10-03-2005, 08:13 PM	#11
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	People bring this idea up every once in awhile and have been since TCY was orginally released.

10-03-2005, 09:08 PM	#15
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	Fair enough.

10-03-2005, 09:10 PM	#16
sovereignstar Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004	I think FOF and DMB should be merged together. That would rule. On sale now! DMB-FOF can be yours for only $100!!

10-03-2005, 09:46 PM	#20
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	The multiplayer aspect of a game such as this would be phenominal.....imagine 32 pro teams running in the background, as 40-50 human GM's gradually work from division 3 up to the pro level. It would be awesome with american football.

10-03-2005, 09:48 PM	#21
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	I wouldn't say it would absolutely be a bad business model. Maybe right now, but you'd think at some point, eventually some one is going to do that (combine pro and college into one game). And, giving that it's actually a good game, they will have a leg up on all other football sims (again, giving that the game is as good as, or maybe just slightly worse, then the competition) Who is going to buy 2 games when they can get it all in just 1? But yeah, probably not a good business move until you have a good feeling someone else is doing it.

10-03-2005, 09:59 PM	#23
Capital High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000	Does Jim have a business model? We haven't really heard from him in a while. I would have hoped I could have purchased a game (preferrably football) by now.

10-04-2005, 01:51 AM	#26
CHEMICAL SOLDIER College Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada	Well if he has a game it better come quick cuz in a matter of weeks I'll be futbol'ed and hockey'd out with the release of FM 06 and Fry's having EHM05. __________________ Toujour Pret

10-04-2005, 01:53 AM	#27
CHEMICAL SOLDIER College Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada	Maybe Jim should try to merge with a huge videogame corporation like say...EA, __________________ Toujour Pret

10-04-2005, 08:08 AM	#30
John Galt Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Internets	Why is the merger of the games different than the CM/FM model? It isn't like they force the gamer to buy separate games for each of the country leagues or divisions. The universe of college and pro football is much smaller than that of FM. Sure, there are differences that need to be accounted for, but the possibility of a consistent career make it worth it. FM allows you to rise through the ranks and coach conference teams all the way to top divisions in each country. Why can't you start as a small college coach and rise to coach an NFL team? I'm not sure this is the "best" business model, but I don't think you can call it a "bad" one. __________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

10-04-2005, 08:12 AM	#31
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	I think this is the stage of the thread where Solecismic pops in and says something like, "It's a wonderful idea that just isn't technically feasible. The nimboplasm of TCY cannot mesh with the gazoodget of FOF. It can't happen." __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

10-04-2005, 08:47 AM	#33
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	I think in Jim's mind it would cut his revenue stream in half. Take FOFC - you have a group that would by both TCY and FOF were they to be renewed. That's more money than if you just sell one game with both. If Jim could sell twice as many of them, then it might make sense, but there's absolutely no guarantee that would happen. __________________ null

10-04-2005, 08:55 AM	#34
Anthony Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Astoria, NY, USA	it could happen, jim is just too lazy. he's limited in vision, stubborn in his ways. if someone were to create such a game, it would be glorious. i don't think it's that far off, SI could easily do something like it. a game like that easily falls into the style of sports management games we're accustomed to them producing. if they were to make such a game - i'm outta here. i'd become a hermit.

10-04-2005, 09:43 AM	#37
John Galt Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Internets	Everyone stand back - we have a poet cagematch going on. __________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

10-04-2005, 09:45 AM	#38
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	hehe...nah, just some friendly territorial pissings.

10-04-2005, 12:10 PM	#42
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	It's like ketchup and mustard in the same bottle. A no brainer. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

10-04-2005, 12:16 PM	#45
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Hermits don't have computers. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

10-04-2005, 12:19 PM	#47
CraigSca Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Not Delaware - hurray!	From a business point of view, I'm not sure this makes sense (though it would be cool from a "universe" point of view). If he charged $60, that would certainly take him out of the price range of some folks (probably not anyone here, however). So, really it's purely theoretical from his point of view as to how much more money he can make selling one large package vs. two smaller packages. I'm sure there would be a lot of development work involved, and you have to wonder what the payback would be, especially if it's not a 100% that he would benefit. __________________ She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know?

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