OT: Baseball Question

DaddyTorgo · 07-06-2005, 08:13 PM

Driving home tonight I was thinking about this, and I've been thinking about it for a few days and never found a satisfactory answer: why aren't catchers (generally speaking, with a few exceptions) better hitters? Specifically with regards to having a lower number of strikeouts and a higher number of walks? They get to see the strike zone more often than any other player on the field and should understand by the time the lineup rolls around to them (at least the 2nd or 3rd time if not the 1st) the way the umpire is calling the particular game. So why aren't they better hitters generally?

And no "because catcher isn't a highly-valued offensive position" answer, because what I'm saying is that it seems like it should be and catchers should hit better.

sovereignstar · 07-06-2005, 08:18 PM

Because catcher isn't a highly-valued offensive position.

MrBigglesworth · 07-06-2005, 08:22 PM

In general, you need to be a much better defensive player to play C than anywhere else on the field, except maybe shortstop, because there are so many chances to screw up. It also take a lot of skills that aren't really used in the rest of the field. That limits the pool of available players that can play the position, which makes it rare that a good hitter will be there. For instance, if 1 in 10 players is a great hitter, and 1 in 5 players can play good defense in the outfield, it means that 1 in 50 outfielders will be able to do both well. If 1 in 10 catchers play good defense, it means that 1 in 100 will be able to do both well. Poor defensive catchers are just moved to the outfield, 1B, or DH early in their careers if they can hit. Catchers probably are better hitters for the reason you mention, but the effect is dwarfed by the relative talent difference.

Pumpy Tudors · 07-06-2005, 08:26 PM

Well, why aren't pitchers better hitters?

Really, if you are a very good defensive catcher, you could have more value than if you're just a very good hitter. I'm sure that there are catchers who are average on offense and defense, but it appears that you get more overall value from a catcher who's better than average on defense even if his offense suffers. The same thing (although to a different degree, I would imagine) is true of shortstops. How do you think Rey Ordoñez lasted so long? At catcher and shortstop, lack of defensive ability can hurt a lot more than lack of offensive ability.

I'm making some assumptions here because, although I'm certain that guys like Bill James have studied this issue, I haven't put any real work into it. It makes sense in my head, though.

TazFTW · 07-06-2005, 08:31 PM

If you are a good a hitting catcher, the organization will try to switch you to some other position because being a catcher takes a toll on your body.

sovereignstar · 07-06-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TazFTW

If you are a good a hitting catcher, the organization will try to switch you to some other position because being a catcher takes a toll on your body.

And if you are a really good-hitting catcher AND a really good-fielding catcher?

Re: Joe Mauer

JeeberD · 07-06-2005, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TazFTW

If you are a good a hitting catcher, the organization will try to switch you to some other position because being a catcher takes a toll on your body.

Exhibit 1: Biggio, Craig

weinstein7 · 07-06-2005, 08:49 PM

Another reason is that catching is so physically taxing, its hard to be consistent as a hitter. Catchers are constantly getting whacked with foul tips, backswings, wild-pitches, etc.

Travis · 07-07-2005, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Exhibit 1: Biggio, Craig

Found it funny that currently there is pretty much the reverse Biggio situation in Cleveland. Victor Martinez is a converted shortstop still learning the catcher position.

Still kind of surprised that Jason Kendall has lasted (and done as well) as long as he has behind the plate. Figured with his speed that the Pirates would have had him out at 2B or the OF. Anybody know if they experimented with him in that sense? I know they had a stud catcher coming through their system (can't remember the name or if he panned out) and thought they'd try and keep him in a different capacity.

Sorry for the mini thread jack, I'm done now.

Raven · 07-07-2005, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TazFTW

If you are a good a hitting catcher, the organization will try to switch you to some other position because being a catcher takes a toll on your body.

I think this is the best answer you are going to get. Catchers usually need a day off, once per week (or every two weeks). A good hitter sitting once per week really hurts a team. So now the guy plays 140 games a year, 22 games on the bench (or as a Pinch hitter). This isn't as dramatic in the AL where that hitter could serve as DH on those days.

SackAttack · 07-07-2005, 12:51 AM

I'd be interested to see a study about the number of pitches a catcher sees during his at-bat relative to the rest of the lineup. I was thinking maybe they have a tendency to rush their ABs a little more because it takes them longer to prepare for the defensive half of the inning than any other player on the field, and if that were the case, perhaps they're just less likely to see a pitch to drive than, say, a right fielder or third baseman.

ThunderingHERD · 07-07-2005, 01:10 AM

I seriously doubt that there is any difference between a catcher's ABs and the ABs of other hitters of similar stats/tendencies. The whole thing about being more familiar with pitching or whatever sounds like it would be of some help, but I doubt it actually effects anything. Looking at a pitch from a catcher's position must be entirely different from seeing it as a batter. Also, by the time a player is major league level he's probably reached his peak level of reading pitches regardless of what position he plays.

If you're specifically referring to the strikezone being called by a particular umpire that day, I'd guess that it's practically impossible for hitters to take that into consideration, regardless of how well they recognize it. They simply don't have enough time for anything but reflexes.

Samdari · 07-07-2005, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

And if you are a really good-hitting catcher AND a really good-fielding catcher?

Re: Joe Mauer

He'll certainly not be playing catcher for very long - unless he is stubborn like Piazza.

Blade · 07-07-2005, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis

Still kind of surprised that Jason Kendall has lasted (and done as well) as long as he has behind the plate. Figured with his speed that the Pirates would have had him out at 2B or the OF. Anybody know if they experimented with him in that sense? I know they had a stud catcher coming through their system (can't remember the name or if he panned out) and thought they'd try and keep him in a different capacity.

Isn't he in Oakland now?

Travis · 07-07-2005, 12:21 PM

Yeah, Kendall is in Oakland now, but from what I can remember, right around the time he ended up leaving Pittsburgh, they were a stud catcher coming through their minor league system that was going to replace him. I'm still surprised that they had never moved him (or maybe they tried and he didn't want to) to a different spot to try and keep him with the system and prolong his career (ala Biggio).

henry296 · 07-07-2005, 12:36 PM

There was some very brief trials with Kendall in the outfield, probably around 2002-3. It was shortly after his major ankle injury. He wasn't very happy with it and he didn't do to well.

Bearcat729 · 07-07-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis

Yeah, Kendall is in Oakland now, but from what I can remember, right around the time he ended up leaving Pittsburgh, they were a stud catcher coming through their minor league system that was going to replace him. I'm still surprised that they had never moved him (or maybe they tried and he didn't want to) to a different spot to try and keep him with the system and prolong his career (ala Biggio).

I seem to remember Kendall playing some outfield( Center or Left field), but not being very good in the field.

07-06-2005, 08:26 PM	#4
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Well, why aren't pitchers better hitters? Really, if you are a very good defensive catcher, you could have more value than if you're just a very good hitter. I'm sure that there are catchers who are average on offense and defense, but it appears that you get more overall value from a catcher who's better than average on defense even if his offense suffers. The same thing (although to a different degree, I would imagine) is true of shortstops. How do you think Rey Ordoñez lasted so long? At catcher and shortstop, lack of defensive ability can hurt a lot more than lack of offensive ability. I'm making some assumptions here because, although I'm certain that guys like Bill James have studied this issue, I haven't put any real work into it. It makes sense in my head, though. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

07-07-2005, 01:10 AM	#12
ThunderingHERD College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	I seriously doubt that there is any difference between a catcher's ABs and the ABs of other hitters of similar stats/tendencies. The whole thing about being more familiar with pitching or whatever sounds like it would be of some help, but I doubt it actually effects anything. Looking at a pitch from a catcher's position must be entirely different from seeing it as a batter. Also, by the time a player is major league level he's probably reached his peak level of reading pitches regardless of what position he plays. If you're specifically referring to the strikezone being called by a particular umpire that day, I'd guess that it's practically impossible for hitters to take that into consideration, regardless of how well they recognize it. They simply don't have enough time for anything but reflexes. __________________ "I'm losing my edge--to better looking people... with better ideas... and more talent. And who are actually really, really nice." "Everyone's a voyeurist--they're watching me watch them watch me right now." Last edited by ThunderingHERD : 07-07-2005 at 01:10 AM.

07-07-2005, 12:36 PM	#16
henry296 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	There was some very brief trials with Kendall in the outfield, probably around 2002-3. It was shortly after his major ankle injury. He wasn't very happy with it and he didn't do to well. __________________ "It's a great day for hockey" - "Badger" Bob Johnson

07-06-2005, 08:18 PM	#2
sovereignstar Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004	Because catcher isn't a highly-valued offensive position.

07-06-2005, 08:22 PM	#3
MrBigglesworth College Starter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: PA	In general, you need to be a much better defensive player to play C than anywhere else on the field, except maybe shortstop, because there are so many chances to screw up. It also take a lot of skills that aren't really used in the rest of the field. That limits the pool of available players that can play the position, which makes it rare that a good hitter will be there. For instance, if 1 in 10 players is a great hitter, and 1 in 5 players can play good defense in the outfield, it means that 1 in 50 outfielders will be able to do both well. If 1 in 10 catchers play good defense, it means that 1 in 100 will be able to do both well. Poor defensive catchers are just moved to the outfield, 1B, or DH early in their careers if they can hit. Catchers probably are better hitters for the reason you mention, but the effect is dwarfed by the relative talent difference.

07-06-2005, 08:31 PM	#5
TazFTW Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Honolulu, HI	If you are a good a hitting catcher, the organization will try to switch you to some other position because being a catcher takes a toll on your body.

07-06-2005, 08:49 PM	#8
weinstein7 High School JV Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rochester, NY	Another reason is that catching is so physically taxing, its hard to be consistent as a hitter. Catchers are constantly getting whacked with foul tips, backswings, wild-pitches, etc.

07-07-2005, 12:51 AM	#11
SackAttack Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Green Bay, WI	I'd be interested to see a study about the number of pitches a catcher sees during his at-bat relative to the rest of the lineup. I was thinking maybe they have a tendency to rush their ABs a little more because it takes them longer to prepare for the defensive half of the inning than any other player on the field, and if that were the case, perhaps they're just less likely to see a pitch to drive than, say, a right fielder or third baseman.

07-07-2005, 12:21 PM	#15
Travis Pro Rookie Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada eh	Yeah, Kendall is in Oakland now, but from what I can remember, right around the time he ended up leaving Pittsburgh, they were a stud catcher coming through their minor league system that was going to replace him. I'm still surprised that they had never moved him (or maybe they tried and he didn't want to) to a different spot to try and keep him with the system and prolong his career (ala Biggio).

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