Another case of Arizona's tax dollars at work...

[Arles]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0606baby06.html

TUCSON - Elva Hernandez's contractions were getting closer. Every 90 seconds. Every 80 seconds.

At seven months pregnant, she was about to deliver a premature baby in the middle of the Arizona desert. Her eldest son, 14-year-old Alejandro, and a cousin had already gone off three hours earlier, searching for the U.S. Border Patrol to bring help. Her husband stayed with her as the contractions started getting closer.

She prayed, bargained with God, swearing her seventh attempt to cross the U.S.-Mexico border illegally would be her last.

"I promised if everything went well, if he saved my family, my children, we would go back to Mexico," she said. "We wouldn't try to cross again."

Out on Arivaca Road, Hernandez's son and cousin flagged down Border Patrol agents, who dispatched a helicopter and spotted a fire set by the family.

Agents reached Hernandez, quickly determined she was in labor, and called headquarters to dispatch a medical helicopter, said Vincent Hampel, deputy commander of the Tucson search and rescue squad. The contractions were a minute apart, he said.

Hernandez, 29, was loaded onto a LifeNet Arizona medical helicopter and delivered a 3½-pound baby boy 20 minutes into the flight on May 29, six minutes from University Medical Center in Tucson, said Rick Weiler, program director for the emergency medical company.

The baby, named Christian, remains in intensive care at the Tucson hospital.

The mother was released Tuesday and said the family plans to return to Xalapa, Mexico, as soon as the baby is well enough to travel.

Hernandez and her family left their home in the southern state of Veracruz and arrived at the Arizona-Sonora border April 21. They paid a smuggler $4,500 upfront and promised to pay more when they arrived in Chicago, but they couldn't make it through the border gantlet.

Christian, a U.S. citizen, will be able to apply for legal status on his parents' behalf once he reaches age 21.

At what point is enough going to be enough with this for the border control to start cracking down. Having baby's delivered in the desert on the mother's SEVENTH time trying to cross the border? Everytime something like this happens it costs us money to take care of the illegal, not to mention the health risks it puts on the mexicans trying to enter Arizona illegally.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Arles

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0606baby06.html


At what point is enough going to be enough with this for the border control to start cracking down. Having baby's delivered in the desert on the mother's SEVENTH time trying to cross the border? Everytime something like this happens it costs us money to take care of the illegal, not to mention the health risks it puts on the mexicans trying to enter Arizona illegally.

So what, they are supposed to just leave her there?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

So what, they are supposed to just leave her there?

No, be proactive and watch the borders to dissuade women that are 9-months pregnant from trying to begin with. This is a border enforcement issue, not one with the health rescue process.

[Desnudo]

Wasn't there a vigilante group going out on patrol? Maybe you should join.

[rkmsuf]

Well I guess Arizona needs to spend more tax dollars then since they don't have enough people to cover the border.

I mean unless you put up the Great Wall of Arizona I don't think you can cover every inch anyway.

[rkmsuf]

Look at the bright side, she failed 6 times to cross illegally.

[MrBigglesworth]

I've been wrestling with this issue. I think immigrants are a necessary party of our economy, but I don't like the security risk. But what can be done? The border patrol can't arrest and throw in jail every person trying to cross the border. 80,000 people were caught trying to cross in the last 8 months alone.

Incentives must be put into place that makes it easier to immigrate legally than illegally, but it must also allow for workers to enter the country to keep the economy going.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Arles

No, be proactive and watch the borders to dissuade women that are 9-months pregnant from trying to begin with. This is a border enforcement issue, not one with the health rescue process.

When is Arizona going to recall its National Guard troops from Iraq to help with this problem, then?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

So what, they are supposed to just leave her there?

No, but why is her child automatically a US citizen? That's one incentive for her to keep trying right there. Why don't we remove that incentive?

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

...I think immigrants are a necessary party of our economy, but I don't like the security risk. ...

I don't understand why immigrants are needed. Do we have more jobs than people? At least where I am (near Portland Oregon) many of the immigrants are getting jobs at farms where students used to work for the summer. Then we wonder why young people don't know how to work.

I'm not trying to argue, it's just that I have been hearing this arguement for a couple of years now and do not understand it yet.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

No, but why is her child automatically a US citizen? That's one incentive for her to keep trying right there. Why don't we remove that incentive?

that I would agree with

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by wishbone

I don't understand why immigrants are needed. Do we have more jobs than people? At least where I am (near Portland Oregon) many of the immigrants are getting jobs at farms where students used to work for the summer. Then we wonder why young people don't know how to work.

I'm not trying to argue, it's just that I have been hearing this arguement for a couple of years now and do not understand it yet.

It's very simple. Many, if not most, of the jobs illegal immigrants take are below minimum wage. This is how the businesses that employ illegal immigrants make money, and is why a lot of U.S. citizens won't take (or can't take) the jobs.

Examples?

1. Fruit pickers making $x/basket. Adds up to below minimum wage.

2. Busboys making $x/hour + tip. Adds up to below minimum wage.

3. Motel/Hotel cleaning people making $x/room. Adds up to below minimum wage.

A large part of the U.S. economy runs on the labor of people making less than minimum wage. A lot of unemployed U.S. citizens make the decision not to take these jobs, but those jobs have to be filled and so they are, by people who aren't U.S. citizens.

[Blackadar]

"The mother was released Tuesday and said the family plans to return to Xalapa, Mexico, as soon as the baby is well enough to travel."

Hmmm...was the intent of the crossing to get free medical care?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by wishbone

I don't understand why immigrants are needed. Do we have more jobs than people?

There are a number of facets to it. Immigrants not only take jobs, but create jobs by owning businesses and from their consumption of goods and services. At times when the economy is rocking, like in the '90's, there are not enough native workers to fill every job, even if you assume that a native worker would take any job and move to any place. Immigrants can also help to bring social security into actuarial balance because they are more likely to pay in and then leave the country before retirement.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by wishbone

I don't understand why immigrants are needed. Do we have more jobs than people? At least where I am (near Portland Oregon) many of the immigrants are getting jobs at farms where students used to work for the summer. Then we wonder why young people don't know how to work.

I'm not trying to argue, it's just that I have been hearing this arguement for a couple of years now and do not understand it yet.

Skilled Jobs- Americans aren't smart enough or trained enough to meet all the skilled job requirements in this country.

Unskilled jobs- on the lower end, there are jobs no American is willing to do, especially given the stress and pay involved. Your entire farm lobby lives of this. Mind you, if you cut of the ridiculous subsidies that are given to the farm lobby that screw everyone else over, there probably wouldn't be as much immigration- you give them the ability to compete in the marketplace.

The moral imperative- America is a country of immigrants. Fact. Immigration was often prioritized to let in White Europeans over all else, as late as the 40's and 50's. The anti-immigration lobby is often a little too close to the xenophobic idiots in their defense of newer, harsher penalties. Immigrants are for the most part hard-working, ethical and what not who come for a better opportunity, and benefit their host country far more than they hurt it - most economists worth their salt would tell you that.

[HomerJSimpson]

I've got an idea....why don't we dig a 60 foot moat between the US and Mexico. Make it about 25 foot deep, fill it with water, and breed aligators in it. To help pay for the cost, we can make it so that anyone who can safely swim the moat, survive the gators, and dodge the bullets of sharpshooters lining the ditch, will win US Citizenship. Then we can sell the TV rights of the people crossing to Fox. Win-win, baby!

[HomerJSimpson]

Oh, and maybe have sharks in the water, too. Just to make it interesting.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

Oh, and maybe have sharks in the water, too. Just to make it interesting.

hello, laser beams too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

But what can be done?

Claymores and other anti-personnel mines would be a wonderful start.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

hello, laser beams too.

I thought that was a given.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

When is Arizona going to recall its National Guard troops from Iraq to help with this problem, then?

Protecting the border is a federal issue. I think the feds need to start making it a priority.

In terms of trying to stop illegal immigration - I agree with the principles of allowing a certain number of work VISAs, removing US-sponsered activities meant to help those trying to cross (ie, water stations in the areas between), remove the health care and education incentives as well. I'm about at the point of advocating billing the Mexican government for each illegal we capture and are forced to deal with. Maybe then they will start guarding their borders as well (even though I know that isn't practical).

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

I've got an idea....why don't we dig a 60 foot moat between the US and Mexico. Make it about 25 foot deep, fill it with water, and breed aligators in it. To help pay for the cost, we can make it so that anyone who can safely swim the moat, survive the gators, and dodge the bullets of sharpshooters lining the ditch, will win US Citizenship. Then we can sell the TV rights of the people crossing to Fox. Win-win, baby!

We have one of those in Texas. Well, minus the alligators. It doesn't seem to work. Tho this is at one of the less precipitous drops.



SI

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Arles

In terms of trying to stop illegal immigration - I agree with the principles of allowing a certain number of work VISAs, removing US-sponsered activities meant to help those trying to cross (ie, water stations in the areas between), remove the health care and education incentives as well. I'm about at the point of advocating billing the Mexican government for each illegal we capture and are forced to deal with. Maybe then they will start guarding their borders as well (even though I know that isn't practical).

I still say aligators and sharks with laser beams would be more effective.








That's shark with laser beams and gators without laser beams. Gators with laser beams is just silly.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

We have one of those in Texas. Well, minus the alligators. It doesn't seem to work. Tho this is at one of the less precipitous drops.

SI

You see, without the aligators and sharks with lasers, it is just incomplete. Mother Nature never can get anything right.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

You see, without the aligators and sharks with lasers, it is just incomplete. Mother Nature never can get anything right.

Sometimes it just needs some super villian to give it a little nudge. Like, for instance, dumping toxic waste into the alligator pit to make them 3x their normal size

SI

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

No, but why is her child automatically a US citizen? That's one incentive for her to keep trying right there. Why don't we remove that incentive?

That would require amending the Constitution, and I guarantee you if you try to amend it on the issue of illegal immigration, the Democratic Party will throw a fit like you ain't never seen.

Kinda like how law enforcement officials in California have their hands tied on the immigration issue because the ruling Democrats are afraid of losing votes if they crack down.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

That would require amending the Constitution, and I guarantee you if you try to amend it on the issue of illegal immigration, the Democratic Party will throw a fit like you ain't never seen.

Kinda like how law enforcement officials in California have their hands tied on the immigration issue because the ruling Democrats are afraid of losing votes if they crack down.

The Governor of CA is a Republican. The GOP runs the House, Senate, and presidency, and they are doing absolutely nothing to close the porous border, let alone trying to ammend the Constitution for anything less than keeping guys' away from each other's backsides. Take off the partisan blinders, both parties are courting the immigration vote.

[judicial clerk]

The governor of CA is an immigrant.

[tategter]

Also don't forget that a lot of illegal immigrants are getting jobs with fake credentials and paying into social security with no chance of getting money back out. The 'free' money injection into SS is in the billions so there is no way that government is going to do anything to hamper that cash cow.

[st.cronin]

Our economy needs more low wage workers, not fewer. We need to ease immigration laws, not make them tougher.

[Warhammer]

I have a solution, get rid of the minimum wage so that Americans can legally work those low paying jobs!

Seriously, why does a burger flipper need to be paid $5.50 an hour?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Our economy needs more low wage workers, not fewer. We need to ease immigration laws, not make them tougher.

Why not setup work VISAs for the jobs we need? That way we can atleast track the number coming in and have a better idea of what we need.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Arles

Why not setup work VISAs for the jobs we need? That way we can atleast track the number coming in and have a better idea of what we need.

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you're suggesting that all immigration should be legal and accounted for, I agree with you. I was just pointing out that the needs and realities of our economy are incompatible with our immigration policy. That's why we have so much illegal immigration.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Our economy needs more low wage workers, not fewer. We need to ease immigration laws, not make them tougher.

Just curious: How do you figure our economy needs more low wage workers?

SI

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Arles

Why not setup work VISAs for the jobs we need? That way we can atleast track the number coming in and have a better idea of what we need.

I'm fine with this, but part of the problem is that the US government has never had the stomach to crack down on businesses employing illegal immigrants. The employers breaking the law are just as responsible as the illegal immigrants, if not more so. Plus, the last time they did this (the bracero program), it didn't work out very well.

[RendeR]

I'm sorry, but the idea that enough illegals are working with fake credentials and making any sort of real input to the SS system is complete horse shit.

The vast majority of illegals coming into the country never appear with any real paperwork at all, they stay under ther adar because its far too easy to be caught out with fake stuff. it USED to be easier when it was all handled by hand, but the computer age has effectively snuffed out the fake SSN and green card networks.

I don't have a real problem with them coming across and taking the jobs Americans don't want, or can't afford to take because the wage is pathetic. We need fruit pickers, I understand this.

What I am utterly aghast at is situations like this woman's. She crosses illegaly or almost, gets picked up by OUR enforcement officials, taken to an AMERICAN hospital where she has no ability to pay for what will turn out to be probably 100K in hospitalization bills because of her premature child. And gets to waddle back to her home without so much as a "thank you folks"

This is where the illegal immagrants are leeching our society to death. This child, because one of our founding fools thought it was a neat idea to add this in, is offically a US citizen! for no other reason than being born 10 ffet across a fuzzy line in the sand! Fuck that.

If you are going to recieve aide, be it at hospitals, or from the government because you live below the poverty line, you had best (as a parent) be a citizen of the country. The "Born on our soil" horse manure needs to be axed.

230 years ago this was a nation of unlimited potential for growth. hello folks, its 2005 now and quite frankly WE"RE ALL FULL UP!

Stay in your own country. Stop leeching of us.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Seriously, why does a burger flipper need to be paid $5.50 an hour?

that's it? you can make 7 or 8 bucks an hour flipping burgers up here. I know we have one of the highest minimum wages in the country as well

[Greyroofoo]

If we get rid of immigrants, who will Wal-Mart illegally pay below minimum wage to do the janitor work in their stores?

[RendeR]

that would be me, 10 years ago anyway.....

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I'm sorry, but the idea that enough illegals are working with fake credentials and making any sort of real input to the SS system is complete horse shit.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...1e10ruben.html

Says it's about $7b a year. Not a huge amount of money as far as Social Security goes, but not insignificant...

[Greyroofoo]

gives some stats of what they take out of the health and welfare system next

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

gives some stats of what they take out of the health and welfare system next

$1.13 billion from the welfare system in 1995 according to this government report.

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/he98030.pdf#search='illegal%20aliens%20and%20welfare'

[Greyroofoo]

I glanced through it but I saw the 1.13 billion is only for food stamps. Correct me if I'm wrong

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I glanced through it but I saw the 1.13 billion is only for food stamps. Correct me if I'm wrong

Sorry for the confusion. I edited it to reflect that.

[Abe Sargent]

[quote=RendeR}

230 years ago this was a nation of unlimited potential for growth. hello folks, its 2005 now and quite frankly WE"RE ALL FULL UP!

Stay in your own country. Stop leeching of us.[/QUOTE]


No we are not, and the simple fact that you actually believe that demonstrates your ignornace of the issues. I think you'll be hard pressed to find that "We Are all full up" in most of our states. West Virginia? Kentucky? Wisconsin? Iowa? Alaska? Montana?

We aren't even close to Full. I doubt we are even at 10%.

I ran Night Watch Security for residence halls at West Virginia University. The job was from midnight until 4 am, wtih a few shifts staying on until 8 am. You simply had to do occaisonal rounds, and sit at the front desk. It was an excellent opportunity to get homework done, read a book, watch a movie, etc. College students are notoriously poor, and could use the nice money from Night Watch. Plus, WVU is a very American school, with less than 5% of the student body international. Yet, less than 20% of my applicant pool were American - most were international students. Many were wealthy international students who were required to work their way through college, or who wanted to work simply to work, not because they needed the money.

The simple fact is that there are many jobs that Americans do not want. We have lost our work ethic as a people. There are many jobs waiting for people to take them, even in tougher times. You could easily set up an Immigration Disribution Center that sent Immigrants to various parts of the country.

Imagine announcing to the world that we will increase our immigrant threshold tenfold if immigrants will live in areas that we select for several years after moving to the country. Come to America, we have a place for you in Milwaukee, or Boise, or Omaha.

We have an ethical obligation to allow more poeple into our borders. We set ourselves up as a beacon on a hill, as the bright light, and now we need to accept those who want to join us.


-Anxiety

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Just curious: How do you figure our economy needs more low wage workers?

SI

The fact that unskilled laborers routinely take insane risks to enter our country (and other '1st world' nations) and take the low wage jobs that would otherwise go unfilled should be a clue.

[st.cronin]

dola to respond to render and anxiety's posts

It isn't entirely an economic issue. Imagine 2 houses, one house where the family is starving to death, and right next door is a family who lives in gross luxury. Does the second family have a moral obligation to help out the first family? I think there is no question that they do, and this is not an exaggeration of the difference in quality of life in the US and some 3rd world countries. This does not mean we should throw open our gates, necessarily; that should be primarily an economic issue. It does mean that the welfare of the entire world, and not just our house, needs to be kept in mind.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

dola to respond to render and anxiety's posts

It isn't entirely an economic issue. Imagine 2 houses, one house where the family is starving to death, and right next door is a family who lives in gross luxury. Does the second family have a moral obligation to help out the first family? I think there is no question that they do, and this is not an exaggeration of the difference in quality of life in the US and some 3rd world countries. This does not mean we should throw open our gates, necessarily; that should be primarily an economic issue. It does mean that the welfare of the entire world, and not just our house, needs to be kept in mind.

I would agree completely. However, many would disagree that it is an ethical obligation to assist. However, if the wealthy household made the claim that it was enlighented, and that it would take people in, and that anybody could be a member of this household, then I think it has an increased obligation that penetrates any arguments that one might make to the contrary in your example.


-Anxiety

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Just curious: How do you figure our economy needs more low wage workers?

SI

Are you going to pick lettuce and clean people's houses? I'm not being facetious.

[yabanci]

with luck and fervent prayer, maybe next time the baby will die in the desert. Save those tax dollars for you.